2x Night of Soul´s Betrayal and a 2/2 - legend rule

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Yesterday the following situation arose: I had a Frogmite (2/2 creature) in
play and my opponent had a Night of Soul´s Betrayal in play. He wanted to
play another NOSB to kill the Frogmite.

The question is, will the Frogmite die before the NOSBs go to the graveyard
as part of the new Legend Rule?

From Gatherer:

Night of Souls' Betrayal
Set & Rarity: Champions of Kamigawa rare

Versions:
Cost:
Card Type: Legendary Enchantment
P/T:
Rules Text (Oracle): All creatures get -1/-1.

My answer would have been that both enchantments go to the graveyard as a
state-based effect, so the next time the game checks for Frogmite´s P/T,
it´s a 2/2 and survives.

Am I correct?

Thanks in advance,

Gustavo Fischer
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gustavo Fischer <gef@montevideo.com.uy> wrote:

> Yesterday the following situation arose: I had a Frogmite (2/2 creature) in
> play and my opponent had a Night of Soul´s Betrayal in play. He wanted to
> play another NOSB to kill the Frogmite.
>
> The question is, will the Frogmite die before the NOSBs go to the graveyard
> as part of the new Legend Rule?
>
> From Gatherer:
>
> Night of Souls' Betrayal
> Set & Rarity: Champions of Kamigawa rare
>
> Versions:
> Cost:
> Card Type: Legendary Enchantment
> P/T:
> Rules Text (Oracle): All creatures get -1/-1.
>
> My answer would have been that both enchantments go to the graveyard as a
> state-based effect, so the next time the game checks for Frogmite´s P/T,
> it´s a 2/2 and survives.
>
> Am I correct?

The Frogmite and the two Nights of Souls' Betrayal go to the graveyard
at the same time. There are two state-based effects that are applicible
at that time, and they both resolve as a single event.

420.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 408, "Timing of
Spells and Abilities"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions
for state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as a single
event, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based effects have
been generated, triggered abilities go on the stack, and then the
appropriate player gets priority. This check is also made during the
cleanup step (see rule 314); if any of the listed conditions apply, the
active player receives priority.

420.5b A creature with toughness 0 or less is put into its owner's
graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.

420.5e If two or more permanents with the same name have the supertype
legendary, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the
"legend rule." If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule
doesn't apply.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gustavo Fischer <gef@montevideo.com.uy> wrote:
>Yesterday the following situation arose: I had a Frogmite (2/2 creature) in
>play and my opponent had a Night of Soul´s Betrayal in play. He wanted to
>play another NOSB to kill the Frogmite.
>
>The question is, will the Frogmite die before the NOSBs go to the graveyard
>as part of the new Legend Rule?

Before? No.

>Night of Souls' Betrayal >Legendary Enchantment
>All creatures get -1/-1.
>
>My answer would have been that both enchantments go to the graveyard as a
>state-based effect, so the next time the game checks for Frogmite´s P/T,
>it´s a 2/2 and survives.

Ah, but what is "the next time the game checks for Frogmite's P/T", hm? It is
_also_ a state-based effect. So that gets checked at the same time (exactly)
as the Legend rule, so they all go together (when they goooo...)

Pop quiz: it is currently possible for all but three of the state-based effects
to "go off" at the same time. Which three? And which one of those used to be
the answer when the situation was "all but one"?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:

: Pop quiz: it is currently possible for all but three of the state-based effects
: to "go off" at the same time. Which three? And which one of those used to be
: the answer when the situation was "all but one"?

By "at the same time", do you mean a particular "same time" in a turn
or game, or any time that SBE's can be checked for?


Keith
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
>David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:
>: Pop quiz: it is currently possible for all but three of the state-based effects
>: to "go off" at the same time. Which three? And which one of those used to be
>: the answer when the situation was "all but one"?
>
>By "at the same time", do you mean a particular "same time" in a turn
>or game, or any time that SBE's can be checked for?

The way I have to get it to work, it can be most any 'same time' in the turn,
though not certain specific ones. But yes, there's at least one restriction
involved on which SBE check this is.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 7 Jan 2005 00:13:26 -0500, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>Pop quiz: it is currently possible for all but three of the state-based effects
>to "go off" at the same time. Which three? And which one of those used to be
>the answer when the situation was "all but one"?

Hmm, it is possible that I misundestood the question, but here goes:

Player A is at 0 life and has 10 poison counters, he has the following
in play:
Platinum Angel equipped and enchanted with
Skullclamp, Cursed Flesh
A 4/4 token creature with 3 damage

It being his turn, player B plays Eureka (and A decides to kill
himself :).
Both players in turn put Concordant Crossroads into play, then they
both put Night of Souls' Betrayal into play, and that is it.


At this point, the Angel is a 2/0 creature, and triggers 420.5b, the
token is 2/2 with 3 damage and triggers 420.5c. The Crossroads hit
420.5i, and the NoSBs are subject to 420.5e.

Now the Skullclamp and the Cursed Flesh trigger 420.5k and 420.5d
respectively, and player A is hit with both 420.5a and 420.5h, also
the token in the graveyard goes *poof* due to 420.5f.

After all this 420.5 a,b,c,d,e,f,h,i,k has triggered leaving only g
and j unused.
Of course, I had to go through two steps of state-based effects, so
perhaps the "go off at the same time" thing is not completely
fulfilled...? But I guess David will tell soon enough. :)


Eureka
{2}{G}{G}
Sorcery
Starting with you, players take turns putting an artifact, creature,
enchantment, or land card from their hands into play until no one
wants to put another card into play.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:

> It being his turn, player B plays Eureka (and A decides to kill
> himself :).
> Both players in turn put Concordant Crossroads into play, then they
> both put Night of Souls' Betrayal into play, and that is it.
>
>
> At this point, the Angel is a 2/0 creature, and triggers 420.5b, the
> token is 2/2 with 3 damage and triggers 420.5c. The Crossroads hit
> 420.5i, and the NoSBs are subject to 420.5e.
>
> Now the Skullclamp and the Cursed Flesh trigger 420.5k and 420.5d
> respectively, and player A is hit with both 420.5a and 420.5h, also
> the token in the graveyard goes *poof* due to 420.5f.
>
> After all this 420.5 a,b,c,d,e,f,h,i,k has triggered leaving only g
> and j unused.
> Of course, I had to go through two steps of state-based effects, so
> perhaps the "go off at the same time" thing is not completely
> fulfilled...? But I guess David will tell soon enough. :)

If you kill 3 or 4 identical Lords in the first batch of SBEs, you can
get 420.5b and 420.5c to happen again in the second batch. Also,
killing a legendary creature in the first batch and having a couple
Volrath's Shapeshifters in play can give you 420.5e in the second batch.

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>Pop quiz: it is currently possible for all but three of the state-based effects
>>to "go off" at the same time. Which three? And which one of those used to be
>>the answer when the situation was "all but one"?
>
>Hmm, it is possible that I misundestood the question, but here goes:
>
>Player A is at 0 life and has 10 poison counters, he has the following
>in play:
>Platinum Angel equipped and enchanted with

Oh, doh, the Angel didn't exist the first time this question was around. So
okay, yes, you CAN get poison counters there too. (Before they could only
get invoked if something was actually resolving that made them, so they
were the odd one out.)

>Both players in turn put Concordant Crossroads into play, then they
>both put Night of Souls' Betrayal into play, and that is it.
>
>At this point, the Angel is a 2/0 creature, and triggers 420.5b, the
>token is 2/2 with 3 damage and triggers 420.5c. The Crossroads hit
>420.5i, and the NoSBs are subject to 420.5e.

Mmm, good, Eureeeeeka gets teh two I was missing.

>Now the Skullclamp and the Cursed Flesh trigger 420.5k and 420.5d
>respectively,

But: note that the Skullclamp doesn't get SBE-checked until AFTER what it
equips is gone. So doing it this way, you get Equip and Enchant and token-
dissolve that can't be done, because this is the _first_ SBE check after
Eureka is done resolving. ...And you can't get Eureka to make you DRAW a
card (or gain you life - we don't have anything that gives you life AS
something comes into play, so dropping the Liches doesn't help). So that's
_four_ you can't get during the first SBE check.

>and player A is hit with both 420.5a and 420.5h, also
>the token in the graveyard goes *poof* due to 420.5f.
>
>After all this 420.5 a,b,c,d,e,f,h,i,k has triggered leaving only g
>and j unused.
>Of course, I had to go through two steps of state-based effects, so
>perhaps the "go off at the same time" thing is not completely
>fulfilled...? But I guess David will tell soon enough. :)

Not completely. I was thinking of doing it all at once. But given that
there can be a Platinum Angel dying during SBE check #2, I have to reduce
my answer to "all but two", because that can shoehorn the poison counters
in also.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> Not completely. I was thinking of doing it all at once. But given that
> there can be a Platinum Angel dying during SBE check #2, I have to reduce
> my answer to "all but two", because that can shoehorn the poison counters
> in also.

How does this sound:

Player A has 0 life and 10 poison counters. A's creatures include
Platinum Angel (4/4 and his life and poison don't matter)
Kobold Drill Sergeant (1/2 and his Kobolds get +0/+1)
Zombie token with Clutch of Undeath and Bonesplitter (7/5)
Crimson Kobolds with 1 damage (0/2 thanks to Drill Sergeant)
Crookshank Kobolds with -1/-1 counter (-1/1 thanks to Drill Sergeant)

When the Eureka resolves, A puts out two Concordant Crossroads, two
Boris Devilboons, and a Phyrexian Dreadnought. For the last one's
replacement effect, he sacrifices the Platinum Angel, the Kobold Drill
Sergeant, and the Zombie. Then state-based effects are checked:

420.5a No more Platinum Angel
420.5b Crookshank Kobolds
420.5c Crimson Kobolds
420.5d Clutch of Undeath
420.5e Boris Devilboon
420.5f Zombie
420.5g ---
420.5h No more Platinum Angel
420.5i Concordant Crossroads
420.5j ---
420.5k Bonesplitter

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>How does this sound:
>
>Player A has 0 life and 10 poison counters. A's creatures include
>Platinum Angel (4/4 and his life and poison don't matter)
>Kobold Drill Sergeant (1/2 and his Kobolds get +0/+1)
>Zombie token with Clutch of Undeath and Bonesplitter (7/5)
>Crimson Kobolds with 1 damage (0/2 thanks to Drill Sergeant)
>Crookshank Kobolds with -1/-1 counter (-1/1 thanks to Drill Sergeant)
>
>When the Eureka resolves, A puts out two Concordant Crossroads, two
>Boris Devilboons, and a Phyrexian Dreadnought. For the last one's
>replacement effect, he sacrifices the Platinum Angel, the Kobold Drill
>Sergeant, and the Zombie. Then state-based effects are checked:
>
>420.5a No more Platinum Angel
>420.5b Crookshank Kobolds
>420.5c Crimson Kobolds
>420.5d Clutch of Undeath
>420.5e Boris Devilboon
>420.5f Zombie
>420.5g ---
>420.5h No more Platinum Angel
>420.5i Concordant Crossroads
>420.5j ---
>420.5k Bonesplitter

Looks good. Now make this a copy of a Eureka, and you get 420.5j also. Getting
it back to the old "all but one" answer, only this time it's the has-drawn-out
state-based effect, not the poison-counters one.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> Looks good. Now make this a copy of a Eureka, and you get 420.5j also. Getting
> it back to the old "all but one" answer, only this time it's the has-drawn-out
> state-based effect, not the poison-counters one.

And I see a way to improve this to "all". The following represent
changes to my description:

One Concordant Crossroads and one Boris Devilboon are already in play.
A has a Nefarious Lich in play. A also has two random creatures and a
random enchantment (or 3 random enchantment creatures). A's library
consists of 3 cards: Concordant Crossroads, Boris Devilboon, Phyrexian
Dreadnought. Instead of a Eureka, it's a copy of a Reweave (Panoptic
Mirror?). Onto the Reweave copy gets spliced two more Reweaves, a
Candles' Glow, and a Glacial Ray. The three Reweaves target the random
permanents, the Candles' Glow targets a Kobold or A, and the Glacial Ray
targets the same thing as Candles' Glow.

The state-based effects I already listed seem intact, the spell copy you
pointed out covers 420.5j, and the Candles' Glow and Nefarious Lich
ultimately replace the Glacial Ray damage with (unsucessful) card draws
for 420.5g.

Actually, I don't think i need the Phyrexian Dreadnought anymore, since
that was only in there to send selected creatures to the graveyard.
Let's try that again:

Player A has 0 life and 10 poison counters.
A's library has 2 cards: Concordant Crossroads (random world
enchantment) and Boris Devilboon (random legendary creature)
A's permanents include:
Copy Artifact of Platinum Angel (his life and poison don't matter)
Dance of Many
Token copy of Kobold Drill Sergeant (his Kobolds get +0/+1)
Fire Whip on one of the above creatures
No-Dachi (random equipment) on one of the above creatures
Panoptic Mirror with Reweave imprinted
Nefarious Lich
Crimson Kobolds (0/2 thanks to Drill Sergeant)
Crookshank Kobolds with -1/-1 counter (-1/1 thanks to Drill Sergeant)

Also in play (not necessarily under A's control): Revelation (random
world enchantment), Boris Devilboon (same legendary creature)

When the copy of Reweave goes on the stack, A splices on another
Reweave, a Candles' Glow, and a Glacial Ray in that order. The targets
are Kobold Drill Sergeant, Platinum Angel, Crookshank Kobolds,
Crookshank Kobolds, in that order. In response to this, A uses the
creature with Fire Whip to damage Crimson Kobolds.

The first Reweave will sacrifice the Kobold Drill Sergeant and bring in
Boris Devilboon. The second will sacrifice the Platinum Angel and bring
in Concordant Crossroads. The Candles' Glow sets up a replacement
effect: Damage to Crookshank Kobolds is prevented and results in life
gain for A. And the Glacial Ray tries to do to damage to Crookshank
Kobolds, but Candles' Glow turns that into 2 life gain for A, which
Nefarious Lich further replaces with 2 card draws which don't work.

Then state-based effects are checked:

420.5a No more Platinum Angel
420.5b Crookshank Kobolds
420.5c Crimson Kobolds
420.5d Fire Whip
420.5e Boris Devilboon
420.5f Kobold Drill Sergeant
420.5g Nefarious Lich
420.5h No more Platinum Angel
420.5i Revelation
420.5j copy of Reweave
420.5k No-Dachi

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Daniel W. Johnson" <panoptes@iquest.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:1gpzste.yd5rbsurrc7oN%panoptes@iquest.net...
> Gustavo Fischer <gef@montevideo.com.uy> wrote:
>
> > Yesterday the following situation arose: I had a Frogmite (2/2 creature)
in
> > play and my opponent had a Night of Soul´s Betrayal in play. He wanted
to
> > play another NOSB to kill the Frogmite.

<snip>
>
> The Frogmite and the two Nights of Souls' Betrayal go to the graveyard
> at the same time. There are two state-based effects that are applicible
> at that time, and they both resolve as a single event.

Thanks to all once again.

Gustavo Fischer
 
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