[40k] Marine Point mess ups?

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I am wondering what you all think are some point mess ups in the Marine
Codex? I figured I would list off some things I think are over or
undervalued and you can flame me and tell me I am a moron... so here goes:

#1: The MOST UNDERvalued as far as points go... Attack bikes, for 50pts
you get 2 wounds, 12" move & shoot heavy bolter AND twin linked bolters
and a 3+ save. They should probably be closer to 65pts + 5pts or 10pts
for multi melta (I generally prefer 3 attack bikes, 2 with heavy bolters
b/c it is an insane anti-personell unit & 1 multi melta to take out
enemy armor, MM's eat up land raiders real nice.)

#2: Probably the most expensive for what you get, Terminators, I am not
saying that Terminators don't rock, but at 40pts +++ they get expensive
pretty quick, 5+ inv. is nice but should probably be 4+ or something
because plasma or better beats the 2+ save, also not being able to make
sweeping advances is a pain in the ass. Maybe if you could opt out of
the deep strike ability and take them for cheaper it would be more
reasonable but as it stands, it isn't worth fielding them unless you are
playing 2000+ pts. and even then mostly only good for a command squad.

#3: Not too far from what they are worth, but slightly expensive, bike
squads, for 3pts less I can take assault troops AND I can field 10 of
them at a time, don't have to worry about terrain as well.

#4: Chaplains... Why exactly are they more expensive than a MASTER?
HELLO?!?

That is about all for now, I am sure most of these will be torn to
shreds but I wanted to get some input.
 
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:25:03 -0500, Lattes
<bumpin_removetoemail_@rogers.com> wrote:

>I am wondering what you all think are some point mess ups in the Marine
>Codex? I figured I would list off some things I think are over or
>undervalued and you can flame me and tell me I am a moron... so here goes:

Have you ever tried using these units in a game?

>#1: The MOST UNDERvalued as far as points go... Attack bikes, for 50pts
>you get 2 wounds, 12" move & shoot heavy bolter AND twin linked bolters
>and a 3+ save. They should probably be closer to 65pts + 5pts or 10pts
>for multi melta (I generally prefer 3 attack bikes, 2 with heavy bolters
>b/c it is an insane anti-personell unit & 1 multi melta to take out
>enemy armor, MM's eat up land raiders real nice.)

They're fine as they are, and rarely taken. If you take a squadron of
three (the most effective use for them), you lose out on a Bike
Squadron, a Land Speeder Squadron, or an Assault Squad. Maybe not
such a big deal if you only want to run two of those others.
Two wounds is overrated. Hit it with a krak missile or lascannon, see
what those two wounds do. They vaporize. Riddle them with bolter
fire, they die. They are not as effective as you'd think.

>#2: Probably the most expensive for what you get, Terminators, I am not
>saying that Terminators don't rock, but at 40pts +++ they get expensive
>pretty quick, 5+ inv. is nice but should probably be 4+ or something
>because plasma or better beats the 2+ save, also not being able to make
>sweeping advances is a pain in the ass. Maybe if you could opt out of
>the deep strike ability and take them for cheaper it would be more
>reasonable but as it stands, it isn't worth fielding them unless you are
>playing 2000+ pts. and even then mostly only good for a command squad.

You're not using them right at all. I can tell that right off the
bat. I remember people whining at first that Terminators were too
expensive at 42 points each with only a 2+ save. Then they get the 5+
save, and now people are still whining about their effectiveness.
Never mind that you can have two assault cannons (8 shots at S6, AP4,
RENDING) and three Stormbolters (6 shots at S4, AP5). Let's ignore
than they're very effective in an assault. No, we'll just whine about
them because we have piss-all idea about how to use them.

Let me tell you something about the "too expensive Terminators". I
walked them along in a game against Space Wolves, ripping up a Grey
Hunters squad with firepower. Then I got close enough so a Blood Claw
squad, led by a Wolf Lord, could shoot at them (with plasma pistols
even!) and assault. That turn, two Terminators died. The entire
Blood Claw pack died the next turn after they fled combat. That was a
tremendous job of recouping their points cost.

Another game, I decided to Deep Strike them, right into my opponent's
deployment zone. They mowed down two Tactical squads and picked off a
handful of other Marines, as well as finishing off a third squad in an
assault, only succumbing when the barrage of incoming plasma shots
could whittle them down. The barrage of fire levied at them allowed
the rest of my army to get close enough to make the massacre complete.
So not only did they kill more points than they cost, they also made a
huge difference in the strategy of the game.

If you aren't using them right, don't come whining to us that they
need a rule change to make them more powerful yet again.

>#3: Not too far from what they are worth, but slightly expensive, bike
>squads, for 3pts less I can take assault troops AND I can field 10 of
>them at a time, don't have to worry about terrain as well.

Assault Marines also have only T4, and cannot fire a twin-linked
bolter every turn as if they were standing still. Bikes are not too
expensive.

>#4: Chaplains... Why exactly are they more expensive than a MASTER?
>HELLO?!?

HELLO! 4+ inv. save and power weapon right off the bat and those
special rules. Have you ever bothered using a Chaplain to lead an
assault? I'm guessing not. They are brutally effective, and the one
way for you to get two 4+ saves in your army (remember, you can only
have ONE Iron Halo at 4+ points). While on the subject of Relics,
remember that a Chaplain can grab an adamantine mantle and have both a
4+ save and be immune to Instant Death, something no other Marine
character can do.

>That is about all for now, I am sure most of these will be torn to
>shreds but I wanted to get some input.

Try learning better tactics. And if a unit doesn't work out with your
idea of how to play Marines, don't whine that it's not useful or
overpointed. Take it out of your army and add something that is more
effective for you. I've never been able to get their points cost
worth from my Ork Tankbustas, but I know they are the right price
because they have the potential to be deadly to tanks (just not when
you can't roll the to hit rolls). So what did I do? I took them out
and replaced them with something else - more Nobz with power klawz!
Do I want the Tankbustas to get a rules change? No. Why not?
Because I have no doubt I will find a way to make them effective at
some point in the future. And you know what? Then my opponents will
cry they're cheesy and should be increased in cost.

It's all the usage and the perception.
-Erik
 
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In article <N9CdnVVh3PlDnabfRVn-vw@rogers.com>, Lattes wrote:
> I am wondering what you all think are some point mess ups in the Marine
> Codex? I figured I would list off some things I think are over or
> undervalued and you can flame me and tell me I am a moron... so here goes:

<snip>

> #4: Chaplains... Why exactly are they more expensive than a MASTER?
> HELLO?!?

Crozius arcanum and rosarius.

--
Joakim
 
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> First rule with Marines: Be aggressive. If you aren't being
> aggressive, you'll lose. I learned that fast in 40K4. Basically my
> idea is to walk forward, with an advancing line of firepower backed by
> some heavy weapons/vehicles. Once in assault range, the Terminators
> come out to play, as does the Chaplain-led Assault Squad. With the
> one-two punch of rapid firing bolters and Terminators and Assault
> Squad charging, a lot of armies wither away. Biggest problems most
> people have are separating portions of their army and trying to fight
> a defensive battle. Not going to work.
> -Erik

I couldn't agree with your strategy more, marines will be soup in a
can if you try to play them defensively, we just seem to go about
acheiving it in different ways, I will use assault bikes to draw fire,
and use a master instead of chaplain, but ya so that a CC command
squad and an assault squad can get in to combat with little/no
casualties.

I am going to give a term. command squad a shot and see what happens,
I see the point of them basically being the cost of a marine + a power
fist and storm bolter, which makes the armor only 5pts. Although I
would suggest you try heavying up on some attack bikes some time, they
generally pay for themselves the first turn they play in the damage
they cause, which makes people scared as hell of them.
 
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Lattes wrote:
> I am wondering what you all think are some point mess ups in the Marine
> Codex?

Interesting that you automatically presume that we would agree with your
analysis...

> tell me I am a moron...

OK, you're a moron.

> #1: The MOST UNDERvalued as far as points go... Attack bikes, for 50pts
> you get 2 wounds, and a 3+ save.

Insta-killed by a ML. Go ahead and take 9, please.

> #2: Probably the most expensive for what you get, Terminators, I am not
> saying that Terminators don't rock, but at 40pts +++ they get expensive
> pretty quick,

Yes, because they're hard to kill.

> 5+ inv. is nice but should probably be 4+ or something

On the contrary, Sv2+/6+I is probably better balanced at the new cost of
40 pts, but even at 42 pts, Sv5+I is good.

> because plasma or better beats the 2+ save,

Precisely. It takes Plasma to beat the save, which otherwise takes
truly massive firepower.

> also not being able to make sweeping advances is a pain in the ass.

Yes. But given that they all have PFs and multiple attacks, they will
kill most of what they encounter in HtH.

> it isn't worth fielding them unless you are playing
> 2000+ pts. and even then mostly only good for a command squad.

Terminators are very powerful when taken in quantity.

> #3: Not too far from what they are worth, but slightly expensive, bike
> squads,

Bikes have 24" invulnerable movement. That's very, very good.

> #4: Chaplains... Why exactly are they more expensive than a MASTER?
> HELLO?!?

For buying an Iron Halo, the Chaplain gets a FREE Power Weapon, Fearless
for the unit, and re-roll Hits for the unit when Charging. What's not
to like?

--
--- John Hwang "JohnHwang...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny
 
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"John Hwang" <JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote in message
news:KmO_d.6815$wL6.272@trnddc03...
> > #2: Probably the most expensive for what you get, Terminators, I am not
> > saying that Terminators don't rock, but at 40pts +++ they get expensive
> > pretty quick,
>
> Yes, because they're hard to kill.
>
> > 5+ inv. is nice but should probably be 4+ or something
>
> On the contrary, Sv2+/6+I is probably better balanced at the new cost of
> 40 pts, but even at 42 pts, Sv5+I is good.
>
> > because plasma or better beats the 2+ save,
>
I still lost a 5 man squad to 1 round of bolter fire way back in 2E.
(Haven't actually played since then.)Still I always take the termies cause I
like em and they brought me into this money pit called "Games Workshop"...
Anyone like the new storm bolters?

-Joe
 
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On 18 Mar 2005 19:18:10 -0800, d2do2dm@hotmail.com (Lattes) wrote:

>Although I
>would suggest you try heavying up on some attack bikes some time, they
>generally pay for themselves the first turn they play in the damage
>they cause, which makes people scared as hell of them.

I prefer Land Speeders. They are Fast vehicles, which can really
terrify people. And I've been on the receiving end of two Land
Speeders with multi meltas (as two squadrons), watching them lay waste
to a Predator Annihilator, Dreadnought, and Vindicator.
-Erik
 
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:01:30 GMT, John Hwang
<JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote:

>> because plasma or better beats the 2+ save,
>
>Precisely. It takes Plasma to beat the save, which otherwise takes
>truly massive firepower.

Especially bad if you play an army with pretty much nothing in the way
of AP1/2 weapons, such as Orks...
-Erik
 
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On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:48:05 GMT, "Desert Lurker"
<ironavengers.spam@ridgenet.net> wrote:

>Anyone like the new storm bolters?

I think they look pretty good. It's a nice departure from the old
style where they looked precisely like what they basically were
originally, two bolters attached to each other. The alternate badges
on the side are also nice. Instead of just having skulls with a wing,
you have: an Imperial Eagle; a Crux Terminatus; a CT with a wing; a
skull with two wings; and the old skull w/t wing. That's your five
designs straight out of the box. And there's actually an old-style
stormbolter still included, to go with the two that have the wide ammo
boxes and the two that have the ammo boxes sticking out to the right
(but not the left).

Overall, I'm a big fan of the new Terminators, and am a very happy
gamer with two boxes sitting in front of me!
-Erik
 
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On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:49:36 GMT, John Hwang
<JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote:

>> I still lost a 5 man squad to 1 round of bolter fire way back in 2E.
>
>40k2 had save modifiers, such that your Sv2+ became weaker.

Actually, IIRC, in 40K2 Terminators had a 3+ save... on 2D6. So it'd
be reduced to 4+ on 2D6.
-Erik
 
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"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bdmr31h1ui6pj96pr3tq91nnskdl6suf8i@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:49:36 GMT, John Hwang
> <JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote:
>
>>> I still lost a 5 man squad to 1 round of bolter fire way back in 2E.
>>
>>40k2 had save modifiers, such that your Sv2+ became weaker.
>
> Actually, IIRC, in 40K2 Terminators had a 3+ save... on 2D6. So it'd
> be reduced to 4+ on 2D6.

Of Course Khorne Terminators had a 2+ save on 1 or 2 d6 depending on rules
interpretation
 
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In article <vvbr319knoot3qtd3ocpsacko7gen5pv73@4ax.com>, Erik Setzer wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:01:30 GMT, John Hwang
><JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote:
>
>>> because plasma or better beats the 2+ save,
>>
>>Precisely. It takes Plasma to beat the save, which otherwise takes
>>truly massive firepower.
>
> Especially bad if you play an army with pretty much nothing in the way
> of AP1/2 weapons, such as Orks...

....but OTOH Orks have choppas, which are absurdly effective against
terminators.


--
Joakim
 
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>
> They compare well. Three Terminators will put out the firepower of
> six Marines at 24" range, can fire and assault in the same turn, have
> a better save, have an invulnerable save, and have a power fist, which
> allows them to take on tough targets.

On Sunday I tried making my command squad a terminator command squad
with librarian and ya, they pretty much rock, although I still think
attack bikes are awesome and still fielded 5 of them.
 
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>
> I prefer Land Speeders. They are Fast vehicles, which can really
> terrify people. And I've been on the receiving end of two Land
> Speeders with multi meltas (as two squadrons), watching them lay waste
> to a Predator Annihilator, Dreadnought, and Vindicator.
> -Erik

I find land speeders more fragile, due to the fact that if they are
immobilized they burn up, for the same points you get the advantage of
not having to deal with terrain, but you also don't get cover from it,
and the twin bolters are a nice bonus on the attack bikes. Although a
couple of tornado class speeders are always nice, nothing like mowing
down an entire squad with 2 speeders.
 
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:10:37 -0500, "Craig Little"
<craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Actually, IIRC, in 40K2 Terminators had a 3+ save... on 2D6. So it'd
>> be reduced to 4+ on 2D6.
>
>Of Course Khorne Terminators had a 2+ save on 1 or 2 d6 depending on rules
>interpretation

I was going to mention that, but didn't want to scare the folks who'd
never dealt with it.
-Erik
 
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On 21 Mar 2005 09:15:28 GMT, jockelinde <nouser@notmydomain.se> wrote:

>In article <vvbr319knoot3qtd3ocpsacko7gen5pv73@4ax.com>, Erik Setzer wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:01:30 GMT, John Hwang
>><JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> because plasma or better beats the 2+ save,
>>>
>>>Precisely. It takes Plasma to beat the save, which otherwise takes
>>>truly massive firepower.
>>
>> Especially bad if you play an army with pretty much nothing in the way
>> of AP1/2 weapons, such as Orks...
>
>...but OTOH Orks have choppas, which are absurdly effective against
>terminators.

Only in an assault. Those stormbolts and assault cannons are murder
on Orks who are trying to get there.
-Erik
 
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:11:40 -0500, Lattes
<bumpin_removetoemail_@rogers.com> wrote:

>> They compare well. Three Terminators will put out the firepower of
>> six Marines at 24" range, can fire and assault in the same turn, have
>> a better save, have an invulnerable save, and have a power fist, which
>> allows them to take on tough targets.
>
>On Sunday I tried making my command squad a terminator command squad
>with librarian and ya, they pretty much rock, although I still think
>attack bikes are awesome and still fielded 5 of them.

It's all in how you use the Termies. Use them smart, and they can be
brutal. Otherwise, it's going to be ugly for them...
-Erik
 
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"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7pfu31d9k2jkfshdev33nn8l6sh8nob3nr@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:10:37 -0500, "Craig Little"
> <craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, IIRC, in 40K2 Terminators had a 3+ save... on 2D6. So it'd
>>> be reduced to 4+ on 2D6.
>>
>>Of Course Khorne Terminators had a 2+ save on 1 or 2 d6 depending on rules
>>interpretation
>
> I was going to mention that, but didn't want to scare the folks who'd
> never dealt with it.


Are lascannons heat based?
 
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:44:28 -0500, "Craig Little"
<craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:7pfu31d9k2jkfshdev33nn8l6sh8nob3nr@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:10:37 -0500, "Craig Little"
>> <craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Actually, IIRC, in 40K2 Terminators had a 3+ save... on 2D6. So it'd
>>>> be reduced to 4+ on 2D6.
>>>
>>>Of Course Khorne Terminators had a 2+ save on 1 or 2 d6 depending on rules
>>>interpretation
>>
>> I was going to mention that, but didn't want to scare the folks who'd
>> never dealt with it.
>
>Are lascannons heat based?

GOD IN HEAVEN, NO! Don't go there, Craig, do NOT go there!
-Erik
 
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In article <jqfu3151gtk599e8lhtt5m9s89vvk25gkm@4ax.com>, Erik Setzer wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2005 09:15:28 GMT, jockelinde <nouser@notmydomain.se> wrote:
>
>>In article <vvbr319knoot3qtd3ocpsacko7gen5pv73@4ax.com>, Erik Setzer wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:01:30 GMT, John Hwang
>>><JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> because plasma or better beats the 2+ save,
>>>>
>>>>Precisely. It takes Plasma to beat the save, which otherwise takes
>>>>truly massive firepower.
>>>
>>> Especially bad if you play an army with pretty much nothing in the way
>>> of AP1/2 weapons, such as Orks...
>>
>>...but OTOH Orks have choppas, which are absurdly effective against
>>terminators.
>
> Only in an assault. Those stormbolts and assault cannons are murder
> on Orks who are trying to get there.

True. I just find it odd that choppas are equally effective against
terminators, marines, and scouts.


--
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On 21 Mar 2005 22:01:29 GMT, jockelinde <nouser@notmydomain.se> wrote:

>> Only in an assault. Those stormbolts and assault cannons are murder
>> on Orks who are trying to get there.
>
>True. I just find it odd that choppas are equally effective against
>terminators, marines, and scouts.

Well, that's Orks for you, they just throw everybody in the same
category.
-Erik
 
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"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qu1v319jmeshjskvt45umap2890omqoenk@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:44:28 -0500, "Craig Little"
> <craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:7pfu31d9k2jkfshdev33nn8l6sh8nob3nr@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:10:37 -0500, "Craig Little"
>>> <craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Actually, IIRC, in 40K2 Terminators had a 3+ save... on 2D6. So it'd
>>>>> be reduced to 4+ on 2D6.
>>>>
>>>>Of Course Khorne Terminators had a 2+ save on 1 or 2 d6 depending on
>>>>rules
>>>>interpretation
>>>
>>> I was going to mention that, but didn't want to scare the folks who'd
>>> never dealt with it.
>>
>>Are lascannons heat based?
>
> GOD IN HEAVEN, NO! Don't go there, Craig, do NOT go there!


What's wrong with a little 2nd Ed flava.
 
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> >>...but OTOH Orks have choppas, which are absurdly effective against
> >>terminators.
> >
> > Only in an assault. Those stormbolts and assault cannons are murder
> > on Orks who are trying to get there.
>
> True. I just find it odd that choppas are equally effective against
> terminators, marines, and scouts.

And yet have absolutely no effect on guardsmen.

Brad

--
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bjhann at hotkey dot net dot au
 
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:11:59 -0500, "Craig Little"
<craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>Are lascannons heat based?
>>
>> GOD IN HEAVEN, NO! Don't go there, Craig, do NOT go there!
>
>What's wrong with a little 2nd Ed flava.

Nothing's wrong with the flava, but when you start bringing up all the
old debates... that's almost as bad as the old "do lasguns and
lascannons have recoil?" discussions. There are some things that are
best left dead.
-Erik
 
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"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cjn2411hploi1bggo940s3er291ll0taqo@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:11:59 -0500, "Craig Little"
> <craig.little@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>Are lascannons heat based?
>>>
>>> GOD IN HEAVEN, NO! Don't go there, Craig, do NOT go there!
>>
>>What's wrong with a little 2nd Ed flava.
>
> Nothing's wrong with the flava, but when you start bringing up all the
> old debates... that's almost as bad as the old "do lasguns and
> lascannons have recoil?" discussions. There are some things that are
> best left dead.


Would my Avatar be left dead if a Lascannon shot it?