[SOLVED] 8086k / Qestion about Idle temps

m.bsatgini

Commendable
Sep 21, 2017
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Hello,

I have a maximus Hero X and a delidded 8086k and i was told that my idle temps are a bit high..

My rig is :

  • Motherboard: Asus Maximus Hero X
  • Processor: i7 8086kdelid - 4.8Ghz @ 1.2vcore
  • GPU : RTX 2080 TI EVGA FTW3 ULTRA
  • Ram : 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z RGB / 3466Mhz
  • PSU: Corsair RMI 850 GOLD
  • Watercooling : Corsair H150i Pro RGB / LL 120 RGB
  • Case : Cooler Master H500M
Coolent temps : 30c to 32c and goes up to 36c while gaming

Power mode : normal, cpu clocks down to 800Mhz on destktop*


The cpu temps is between 37 and 40 when i'm on the desktop and i know that nothing is concerning and that is not the temp that matters but some people told me that with this CPU being delidded and my rig, it should be around 30c.





During gaming it's all good for what I know, around 55 to 58c MAX on the hottest core. With an average around 45c (see screenshot)

I was wondering if it's ok and maybe if some tweaks in bios could reduce the idle temps and thus help me reduce the fan speed for silence when not gaming




Thanks for the help
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
m.bsatgini,

It's amazing how many users fling unqualified and conflicting numbers around like gorilla poo in a cage. How they define basic terms such as "idle" and "full load" are almost always inconsistent and vary widely.

What "some people told you" almost certainly did not take into account critical variables such as ambient (room) temperature, and whether "idle" actually fits the definition of idle, which is 1% CPU Utilization in Windows Task Manager.

Idle also means SpeedStep and all C States enabled, "balanced" power plan, and no programs or screensaver running. No Dropbox or Folding or SETI or streaming or "tray-trash" running in the background. Off line and hands-off, so the CPU remains quiet and as undisturbed as possible by any unnecessary software activity.

Here's how "idle" should look:



To put "idle" numbers into perspective, the international standard for "normal" room temperature is 22°C or 72°F. At 1% minimum "idle" with good case airflow and a front-mounted high end AIO, this means average Core temperatures may be as low as 25°C, or about 3°C above ambient.

Under these idle conditions, the differences between Core temperatures on CPUs with paste or solder / liquid metal under the IHS is nearly negligible, which is because Core power consumption is only about 2 Watts, so thermal dissipation is lowest. However, as workload approaches 100% TDP, the differences in thermal conductivity between paste and and solder / liquid metal becomes clear.

Here’s how the differences look from idle to 100% workload:



You might want to read:

Section 9 - The TIM Problem
Section 13
- Thermal Test Minimum Idle

Intel Temperature Guide

CT :sol:
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
m.bsatgini,

It's amazing how many users fling unqualified and conflicting numbers around like gorilla poo in a cage. How they define basic terms such as "idle" and "full load" are almost always inconsistent and vary widely.

What "some people told you" almost certainly did not take into account critical variables such as ambient (room) temperature, and whether "idle" actually fits the definition of idle, which is 1% CPU Utilization in Windows Task Manager.

Idle also means SpeedStep and all C States enabled, "balanced" power plan, and no programs or screensaver running. No Dropbox or Folding or SETI or streaming or "tray-trash" running in the background. Off line and hands-off, so the CPU remains quiet and as undisturbed as possible by any unnecessary software activity.

Here's how "idle" should look:



To put "idle" numbers into perspective, the international standard for "normal" room temperature is 22°C or 72°F. At 1% minimum "idle" with good case airflow and a front-mounted high end AIO, this means average Core temperatures may be as low as 25°C, or about 3°C above ambient.

Under these idle conditions, the differences between Core temperatures on CPUs with paste or solder / liquid metal under the IHS is nearly negligible, which is because Core power consumption is only about 2 Watts, so thermal dissipation is lowest. However, as workload approaches 100% TDP, the differences in thermal conductivity between paste and and solder / liquid metal becomes clear.

Here’s how the differences look from idle to 100% workload:



You might want to read:

Section 9 - The TIM Problem
Section 13
- Thermal Test Minimum Idle

Intel Temperature Guide

CT :sol:
 
I would not worry about idle temps...(if in Balanced mode where CPU goes down to as low as 800 MHz, I'd expect 32-35C or so, however; if you've locked clocks at 4.7 GHz or so with a fixed/moderate core voltage needed for stability, then naturally idle temps will be higher

It's the 'at load' temps that matter most; CPU-Z/bench/stress CPU puts a moderately heavy load on the CPU, roughly equivalent to a heavy gaming load in my opinion, and, not as 'thermally stressful' as Prime95/small FFTs. Run it 20 minutes, and, if temps are under 80C, you are good, IMO. Gaming temps in the 50's are surprisingly low, IMO.... (with those temps, I'd be pushing for another 100 MHz across all cores if possible, since the 8086 was technically rated/spec'd for all-core 5 GHz turbos...; 58C is a walk in the park)

Granted, if GPU limited, often there is no real point in the other 200 MHz and 15C higher temps...
 

m.bsatgini

Commendable
Sep 21, 2017
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Guys I'm impressed by your answers I've been asking around and no one was able to give me that kind of solid explanations.

How can a computer be idle nowadays when we are almost all using software for keyboards, mice, aio? Icue for instance sometimes use 5% of cpu.

If I wanted to lower the temps when just browsing what should I do?

You said I could put 100mz more I am at 1.2 vcore but when I tried to achieve 5ghz it was very needy, had to put more than 1.3 to be stable so that's why I left it as it is but maybe I should try again, what would you suggest to help stability?

Thanks again for your awesome answers
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
m.bsatgini,

You needn't concern yourself with Core temperatures when "browsing". Although Throttle temperature is 100°C, here's the nominal operating range for Core temperature:

Core temperatures above 85°C are not recommended.

Core temperatures below 80°C are ideal.



Also, I wouldn't characterize 1.3 Vcore as "needy". Here's the Maximum Recommended Vcore per Microarchitecture from 14 to 65 nanometers since 2006:



Here's how the Degradation Curves correspond to Maximum Recommended Vcore for 22 nanometer 3rd and 4th Generation, which differs from 14 nanometer 5th through 9th Generation:



As you can see from the charts, and just as mdd1963 has already pointed out, as long as you keep it under 80°C and 1.4 Vcore, you have ample headroom to increase the O/C to 5.0GHz on your delidded i7-8086K, so go for it.

CT :sol:
 

m.bsatgini

Commendable
Sep 21, 2017
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Thanks! I've always read that adaptive isn't that stable though but if I wanted to keep the same frequencies as I have now and "convert" my 1.2 fixed to adaptive what should I do.?
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
m.bsatgini,

I think it's highly likely that the same " people who told you" all about "idle" have also "told you" all about "Adaptive" Vcore.

You need to take the time to study the Guides I posted for you, then search Google for an Overclocking Guide that addresses your Asus Maximus Hero X and i7-8086 combination, or an Overclocking Guide which covers hardware configurations similar to yours.

In conjunction with "Load Line Compensation" (LLC), "Fixed" Vcore is used first to find your highest stable overclock. Then once you've established exactly what the LLC and Vcore values are, and have fine tuned them via thorough stability and thermal testing, you can then shift to Adaptive so Vcore can diminish during idle. Adaptive prevents your CPU from being constantly held at elevated voltage levels to ensures greater CPU longevity.

If you've done your homework and have tweaked and tested your rig properly, then there will be no stability issues with Adaptive Vcore.

Intel Temperature Guide

CPU Overclocking Guide and Tutorial for Beginners


CT
:sol:
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
m.bsatgini,

The link works; just click on the triangular "play" button.

Respectfully, your questions suggest that you're neither well informed nor experienced concerning overclocking or processor temperatures, both of which are overlapping topics. In order to safeguard against damaging hard earned components, it's strongly recommend that users approach overclocking with caution and diligence. Users should be willing to invest the time needed to climb the learning curve. Reading, researching and understanding these topics before attempting to overclock is favored far above trial and error.

In addition to the links I've already provided for you, a quick Google search reveals many sources, including the following references from Asus:

8086K + 8700K Overclokcing Guide with ASUS Maximus X

Overclock BIOSsettings for i7-8086K on Asus ROG Maximus X Hero


The 8086K is a high bin processor, so you should be able to achieve a very good overclock.

CT:sol:
 

m.bsatgini

Commendable
Sep 21, 2017
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I didn't really plan to do a big overclock actually, scores are not a big thing for me and I'm quite sure that going from 4.8 tp 5ghz won't change anything in term of usage or FPS in game right?

i'm more looking for stable, cooler and then silence performance

i've seen those topics and that's how i did my settings in the bios but I would like to have some opinion on those
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Ambassador
You are on liquid cooling. Not air. That changes everything in how temps work vs airflow vs workloads and response times.

Coolant temps look perfect. Load temps are awesome for that particular cpu and it's clocks.

But understand that idle and load are vastly different, especially in a liquid cooled pc that's controlled by software. Your heat exchange happens at the rad, not on top of the cpu, so airflow inside the case and the cpus temp will be determined by the amount of coolant flow, the rate of dissipation at the rad and coolant temp vs cpu heat output.

You have iCue, which at idle I'm assuming will be set to lower pump rpm, lower fan speeds. This results in a loss of effective cooling efficiency, so raised cpu temps. Won't hurt anything at all. But some of the 'less educated' only look at the number and decide its too high. It honestly isn't. It's realistically meaningless in a liquid cooler.

To get 'idle' temps down, simply adjust the rpm of the pump and fans in iCue. Higher flow rate and higher airflow through the rad will increase efficiency at the pump head, better energy absorption, lower cpu temps.

4.8-5.0GHz is @ 2% increase in ability. At best with a 100fps output, you'd go up 2-3fps. For some, that's important. For me, it's laughable. Meaningless. Won't change anything except the heat output of the cpu.
 
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m.bsatgini

Commendable
Sep 21, 2017
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Thanks! Well for icue I am always on balanced mode for the pump and fans are around 50% all the time.

For the rest I'll leave it as it is then I was just concerned by those temps but if all of that is fine it's all good. When I'm browsing or watching a movie it's between 38 and 42
 

CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
Guys,

Just for perspective, here's some actual test results:

8700K delidded, 5.0GHz, 1.33 Adaptive Vcore at 100% workload, H105 (38mm rad) push-pull, ambient 22°C:

69°C - Prime95 Small FFTs no AVX, open case, fans & pump 100%
25°C - Idle 1% CPU Utilization, closed case, fans 40%, pump 60%

CT :sol:
 

m.bsatgini

Commendable
Sep 21, 2017
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My CPu usage is never at 1% though just with ICUE, LG hub, precision X...

just ICUE is at best at 3%

I never see my cpu going under 7% usage I think !
 
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CompuTronix

Intel Master
Moderator
m.bsatgini,

SpeedStep and all C States enabled, "balanced" power plan, and no programs or screensaver running. No Dropbox or Folding or SETI or streaming or "tray-trash" running in the background. Off line and hands-off, so the CPU remains quiet and as undisturbed as possible by any unnecessary software activity.

Most users don't bother to clean up the software trash and bloatware that installations leave behind. Task Manager is the first place to look for unnecessary Startups, Processes and Services that use CPU resources which prevent the CPU from reaching a "quiet" idle state with low temperatures.

Note: Keep in mind that Karadjgne's 3770K idles at 1600MHz with about 0.9 volts, while the 8086K / 8700K idles at 800MHz with about 0.7 volts, thus the higher idle temperature. Also, another variable to be clarified is that I'm listing "average" Core temperature, whereas Karadjgne might be listing "hottest" Core temperature, which is also "Package" temperature and is sometimes called "CPU temperature.

You don't "need" resources-hungry software to control fans, pump or lighting on most AIOs. Unless the wiring is integrated and can't be readily separated, as in certain models, you can accomplish better results by connecting fans and pump directly to motherboard headers, then carefully configuring the individual curves in BIOS.

Moreover, you don't "need" to see "coolant temperature", so again, software isn't needed to run most AIOs. If you were instead running a high-end air cooler such as a Noctua NH-D15, there is no "coolant temperature".

CT :sol:
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Ambassador
Exactly. As CT was kind enough to point out, there's going to be multiple variables. I had to turn off Cam software to get the 1%, normally I run @ 5% and speedstep still works, so there's going to be differences in every scenario. I'm also using a older cpu on a larger nm process, so internal voltages and power consumption are somewhat higher, even at idle state.

You can lower your idle temps, but that'd require tinkering and may end up with less than ideal results to you, increased fan speeds and noise, increased pump speeds, hours of testing (its liquid, so no 5 second fixes). All of which requires a decision as to whether or not the effort is really worth it. It's not going to hurt either way and have no overall reaching benefits.
 

Darkbreeze

Retired Mod
Idle temperatures ONLY matter, realistically, IF you are not able to be compliant at the high end of the spectrum. If you are staying below 80°C while running a steady state thermal stress test such as (And preferably, only) Prime95 Small FFT with AVX/AVX2 disabled, then it doesn't really matter whether you are idling at 25°C or 45°C.

If however you are not able to keep your upper thermal range in check and are exceeding the recommended temperature THEN a 40°C or higher "idle" temperature becomes a problem and an indicator that something is probably not right. Whether that is a bad mount, a faulty pump, lack of airflow of some kind whether through the case or radiator depending on the type of cooling used, excessive voltage or a CPU sample that is simply not good enough for the overclock being attempted, is something you then have to determine by eliminating the variables you CAN to see if one of them is responsible for the problem.

If you've eliminated all the elective variables such as overclocking and voltage adjustments, inadequate fan curves, fans that are not properly oriented with front, bottom and side fans being oriented as intake and top/rear fans being oriented as exhaust, and you still have a problem, then it becomes a little easier to determine where the problem is, if there is even a problem to begin with.

Listen to Computronix. If there is one person out there that can lead you to the correct answer to your questions, it is him.
 

m.bsatgini

Commendable
Sep 21, 2017
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ok thanks you all for your explanations so to sum it up, my gaming temps are great and even if i reach 45c when browsing it's not an issue at all.

For the rest and the software topic I do need to run ICUE for controlling RGB, pumps and fans since I use a corsair commander so i'm stuck with it..

Also for SA and IO, i was at 1.2, i lowered those for :
IO 1.05 IO and 1.1v SA , no big changes and still stable.

I've disabled some apps in the backrgound app settings and some windows option to get rid of Runtime broker which was sometimes using 5% for nothing.

Now my CPU state is around 6% when just browsing i guess that's fine.

Average CPu temp, 39 C with 27c in the room
 
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