A comment after Saphires 9800 Pro response!

[Crashman]

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but for those of you who didn't read down that far:

9800SE=9500 non-pro Version 2.0. It's the same card! Just based on a slightly revised core (a hampered 9800 core rather than a hampered 9700 core).

9800 Pro 128 bit=9500 Pro Rev 2.0.
Same story, this time it's the memory bandwidth that's reduced!

Who would pay $200 or more for a 9500 Pro (9800 Pro 128-bit)?

Who would pay $135 for a 9500 non-pro (9800SE)?

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[pauldh]

Considering the real 256-bit R9800 Pro's are only $200, only the misinformed of fooled people will buy a 128-bit version for $200. They had fallen to $168, which isn't too bad. But honestly it has to be priced equal to a R9600XT to be a a good buy. I'd still like to see it make it into a review pitting it against R9600 pro/XT, R9500 Pro, R9700 Pro, R9800, R9800 Pro. Seen any benchies on that 128-bit verion Crash? Thx for the info.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

 

[Crashman]

I haven't seen any comparisons. But I do know the technical information:
1.) The 9800 Pro's performance gain over the 9700 Pro was small, and nearly directly proportional to it's increased clock speeds. Therefore the newer core isn't much better than the older one.
2.) The 9800 Pro 128-bit uses the same connections as the 9500 Pro, I'm fairly certain it's the same exact PCB. It MIGHT be clocked a bit higher than the 9500 Pro, but if it isn't, the performance should be about the same between the 9800 Pro 128-bit and 9500 Pro.
3.) The 9800SE uses the 9500 non-pro PCB's. In a few cases the 9500 non-pro used the 9700 PCB, so do a few 9800SE's. Therefor the only significant performance advantage any 9800SE could have over the same PCB version 9500 non-pro would be a slightly higher clock speed.

I point this out to help the buyer beware, not all of them are as informed as you.

Many sites are providing incomplete or even false information on cards. Newegg actually said their 9800 Pro 128-bit RAM card used 256-bit RAM for a few weeks and many buyers were taken in by that. I believe it was an accident caused by poor comunication between Newegg and their suppliers. MOST buyers did NOT realize they got "taken" and did NOT return their cards. The lack of performance will eventually hurt ATI's reputation as non-tech minded people who think they have a REAL 9800 Pro find the performance to be much lower than that of, say, an FX5900U!

But at least Newegg would give you a refund or credit on their mistake, without charging restocking fees, etc. Other companies are less scrupulous: Since the 9800 Pro 128-bit RAM card still has a 256-bit VPU, they often advertise the cards as "256 bit" letting you assume they're talking about the RAM interface when they're not. Then when you try to get any action on that, they tell you you're screwed simply because they didn't "lie". Offer you a refund with a huge restocking fee, and you just paid shipping both ways on top of that restocking fee.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[pauldh]

I fully agree with you, it was a lame move on Saphires part and people will get screwed, especially from shady sites. If i can find a cheap refurb 128-bit Pro off newegg for under $125 I might invest in it for fun. I own a BBA 9500 Pro and a Saphire 256-bit 9800 Pro, so it would be fun to do a comparison. I can always sell off the crippled 9800 Pro on ebay to some poor unsuspecting bidder. :lol: (just kidding, I would never do that.)

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

 

[cefoskey]

Do you have a link to sapphires official response, crash?

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0 HT, Intel D865GBF, 512MB Crucial PC3200 DDR, WD 36GB Raptor 10,000RPM, BBA Radeon 9600PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV

 

[pauldh]

<A HREF="http://www.sapphiretech.com/press/128-bit-9800.pdf" target="_new">http://www.sapphiretech.com/press/128-bit-9800.pdf</A>

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

 

[HardWareBoss]

Well it all boils down to one word. GREED!!!!!!$$$$$$$$$

 

[Guest]

Alotugh it was wrong, what do you think of the way they're trying to fix this issue? 25$ + your 128bit R9800pro for a real 9800 with 256...Its not so bad.
I just think it shouldnt have happened in the first place. Afterwards it should've corrected faster than that...
Also im sure some ppl will still buy the card even with the 128bit oversized sticker. most ppl still dont have a clue whats the difference between 128bit and 256bit ram.

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-3-3-8, Leadtek FX5900 w/ FX5950U bios@500/1000, 2X30gig Raid0

 

[Crashman]

Yes, many people will buy the 128-bit RAM version, not knowing better, and never noticing the difference. Many others will buy it not knowing better, and experience buyers remorse afterwards, I've seen that a lot with other parts.

ATI USED to have a VERY REASONABLE naming system! LE and VE for their "light" and "value" editions. Think about this:
1.) Under the old naming system:
9800 Pro=9800 Pro
9800=9800
9800 128-bit=9800LE
9800SE=9800VE.
People would be less confused and ATI would have more consumer confidence. The new names cause consumer distrust, which may creat a long-term sales problem. I should work for ATI sales and help them set strict regulations on naming and specifications to increase long-term sales!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[HardWareBoss]

Now if you can get ATI and nV to do that. Now that would be something.

 

[david__t]

Typical corporate irresponsibility. Trying to sell lower quality / performance stock using the name of higher ranked products. Over the course of the last year, 9800 has had many models which were easy to identify - 9800 XT, Pro, SE etc... but even these do not really let you know as an in-experienced shopper which is better or worse. Coming at those 3 from a stupid "I know nothing" point of view, I would bet on the "Pro" version being the best every time as it is the only moniker which even hints at extra performance like 911 "Turbo" - you can easily tell that you are getting a better model.

I would advocate changing the model number completely - still keep the name Radeon and 9800 to let people know it is not the low end stuff but change the name to reflect the performance difference better - It is intuitive to link higher numbers with higher performance so why not follow Nvidia - 5950 is at the top followed by the 5900 and so on. (PS lets not turn this in to an ATi vs Nvidia argument)

Incidentally this is similar to how the Geforce 4 MX was really more akin to the Geforce 2 a few years back.

I know I'll be checking the core clock and item descriptions a lot more carefully in the future.

4.77MHz to 4.0GHz in 10 years. Imagine the space year 2020

 

[cefoskey]

Typical corporate irresponsibility. Trying to sell lower quality / performance stock using the name of higher ranked products.

I think thats called marketing. Ati, and all vendors to retail markets know that 95% of customers (in retail stores especially) have no clue what they are buying. Working at best buy selling computers taught me that in paticular (aside form the fact that people are just plain retarded). This is a clever trick used by Sapphire, but I do not see any malice since the fact that the specs of the card were not hidden. It is a buyers responsibility to do the research, and know what questions to ask. If Im going to spend $200 on a graphics card, im going to make sure I buy exactly what I want.

However, if the feature was not listed on the box specifications like it was, it would be a different story.

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0 HT, Intel D865GBF, 512MB Crucial PC3200 DDR, WD 36GB Raptor 10,000RPM, BBA Radeon 9600PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV

 

[dhlucke]

I just had a friend buy one of these for over $170 so I'm getting him to cancel the order.

Most people will fall for this.

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