A message from Crucial

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I sent Crucial an email, outlining the fact that I'd purchased
a 256MB stick of CL2 pc133 SDRAM (CT32M64S8D7E)
and I was asking their advice about the DIMM memory speed
setting in the bios. For example, you can set 6-3-3 (normal)
6-3-2 (enhanced) 6-2-3 (fast) etc,etc.

This is their response:
"Hello Dave,
Thank you for your email. I would recommend leaving part number
CT32M64S8D7E at the normal setting of 6-3-3. If you overclock the part
it will void the warranty of the memory module."



I can understand that recommendation if it's based on the
expected correct operation of the memory; but surely
choosing one of the faster timings is not overclocking,
and therefore should not violate the terms of the warranty.


What is crucial telling me?
Dave
 

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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:29:43 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:

>I sent Crucial an email, outlining the fact that I'd purchased
>a 256MB stick of CL2 pc133 SDRAM (CT32M64S8D7E)
>and I was asking their advice about the DIMM memory speed
>setting in the bios. For example, you can set 6-3-3 (normal)
>6-3-2 (enhanced) 6-2-3 (fast) etc,etc.
>
>This is their response:
>"Hello Dave,
>Thank you for your email. I would recommend leaving part number
>CT32M64S8D7E at the normal setting of 6-3-3. If you overclock the part
>it will void the warranty of the memory module."
>
>
>
>I can understand that recommendation if it's based on the
>expected correct operation of the memory; but surely
>choosing one of the faster timings is not overclocking,
>and therefore should not violate the terms of the warranty.
>
>
>What is crucial telling me?
>Dave
>

If you run the ram out of spec (lower latency) then it's over clocking
and may cause problems.

If you're running Windows try running the free "CPU-Z" program, look at
the memory section and see if tells you what the timings are of the ram
sticks.

Ed
 

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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:00:29 -0600, Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:
>If you're running Windows try running the free "CPU-Z" program, look at
>the memory section and see if tells you what the timings are of the ram
>sticks.

CPU-Z Link: http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php
 
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:02:44 -0600, Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:00:29 -0600, Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>If you're running Windows try running the free "CPU-Z" program, look at
>>the memory section and see if tells you what the timings are of the ram
>>sticks.
>
>CPU-Z Link: http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php
Thanks for the info, according to the SPD timings table,
the crucial stick at 133MHz, can support
CL2,
ras to cas 2
ras precharge 2
TRas 6

So to me, it looks as if Dimm memory of 6-2-2 is supported.
Now, the response from crucial is even more nonsensical than
it first seemed. Either that or the response from RusH is correct!

Dave
 

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da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote :

>
> Surely, by usng these DIMM speed settings all you're doing is
> accessing the memory past a speed it can (potentially) support.
> Does this put strain of the memory? I always thought the answer
> was no.

and it is NO. You cant brake silicon with high frequency, high voltage
is another thing.

Pozdrawiam.
--
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http://randki.o2.pl/profil.php?id_r=352019
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You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
 

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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:59:59 +0000, RusH wrote:

> da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote :
>
>>
>> Surely, by usng these DIMM speed settings all you're doing is
>> accessing the memory past a speed it can (potentially) support.
>> Does this put strain of the memory? I always thought the answer
>> was no.

They don't support it, so it *is* over-clocking. It costs them money to
answer you question. If it stops working tomorrow it costs them money to
replace it.

> and it is NO. You cant brake silicon with high frequency, high voltage
> is another thing.

Nonsense. Power is proportional to frequency. It *is* possible (though
not likely for memory) to burn out "silicon" with a higher frequency.

--
Keith
 
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da_test wrote:
> No. I didn't respond to them. Nor did I say I was actually
> "overclocking". It was just an inquiry. Secondly, according
> to CPUZ it actually supports 6-2-2 !

If the chip's own SPD says that it supports that speed, then that's the
speed it supports. Doesn't your computer have a "use SPD" or "default
timings" setting? Those are usually based off of the SPD settings.

Yousuf Khan
 
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:21:05 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
wrote:

>da_test wrote:
>> No. I didn't respond to them. Nor did I say I was actually
>> "overclocking". It was just an inquiry. Secondly, according
>> to CPUZ it actually supports 6-2-2 !
>
>If the chip's own SPD says that it supports that speed, then that's the
>speed it supports. Doesn't your computer have a "use SPD" or "default
>timings" setting? Those are usually based off of the SPD settings.
>
> Yousuf Khan
Yes it does have an SPD setting, but that's the interleave item.
I believe the interleave options are SPD, 4-way, 2-way or none.

The bios doc is a little sparse, but nowhere is it inferred that
that will affect the memory timings.
My bios does have a setting for cl2/cl3 and a separate one
for DIMM speed. The options are "normal" (622),
"enhanced"(632), "fast" (623), "faster" (622) and
"fastest" (522)

Default timing are obviously cl3/normal, but it's going to
choose that regardless of the memory capabilities.
Dave
 

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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:48:47 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:

>So to me, it looks as if Dimm memory of 6-2-2 is supported.
>Now, the response from crucial is even more nonsensical than
>it first seemed. Either that or the response from RusH is correct!
>
>Dave

You could just set the BIOS to use "SPD" and it should set the timings
correctly, but that doesn't always work correctly with all boards and
ram sticks, I always set the ram timings manually to spec when I can.

You may want to test your setup with programs like Memtest86+
http://www.memtest.org/ and Prime95(Tests lots of Ram)
http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm just to make sure it's working
error free.

Ed
 
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:21:20 -0600, Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:48:47 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>So to me, it looks as if Dimm memory of 6-2-2 is supported.
>>Now, the response from crucial is even more nonsensical than
>>it first seemed. Either that or the response from RusH is correct!
>>
>>Dave
>
>You could just set the BIOS to use "SPD" and it should set the timings
>correctly, but that doesn't always work correctly with all boards and
>ram sticks, I always set the ram timings manually to spec when I can.
>
>You may want to test your setup with programs like Memtest86+
>http://www.memtest.org/ and Prime95(Tests lots of Ram)
>http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm just to make sure it's working
>error free.
>
>Ed
Ed, a couple of things, I've never had much luck with memory testers.
If I set the timing aggresively, I will/have errors in Windiws.
But memtest86+ never finds a problem.

Secondly, as I mentioned in another post in this thread,
in my bios SPD seems related to interleave only,
unless I'm misunderstanding something - but I don't
think I am. I checked the chipset values using wpcredit.
Dave
 
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In article <7vLLd.4982$Ck1.888924@news20.bellglobal.com>, bbbl67@ezrs.com
says...
>
>If the chip's own SPD says that it supports that speed, then that's the
>speed it supports. Doesn't your computer have a "use SPD" or "default
>timings" setting? Those are usually based off of the SPD settings.


I bought this Crucial memory 2x512 BL6464Z402 from

http://www.crucial.com/store/MPartspecs.Asp?mtbpoid=D53F57E0A5CA7304&WSMD
=A8V+Deluxe&WSPN=BL6464Z402

This web page text says 2-2-2-6 timing, so that was my expectation.

However, the Asus A8V BIOS according to CPUZ interprets the SPD as
2-2-2-8

My default setting is 2.5V. Memory specs says 2.8V.
Can that possibly affect SPD?
 
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:33:55 -0600, Wayne Fulton <nospam@invalid.com>
wrote:

>In article <7vLLd.4982$Ck1.888924@news20.bellglobal.com>, bbbl67@ezrs.com
>says...
>>
>>If the chip's own SPD says that it supports that speed, then that's the
>>speed it supports. Doesn't your computer have a "use SPD" or "default
>>timings" setting? Those are usually based off of the SPD settings.
>
>
>I bought this Crucial memory 2x512 BL6464Z402 from
>
>http://www.crucial.com/store/MPartspecs.Asp?mtbpoid=D53F57E0A5CA7304&WSMD
>=A8V+Deluxe&WSPN=BL6464Z402
>
>This web page text says 2-2-2-6 timing, so that was my expectation.
>
>However, the Asus A8V BIOS according to CPUZ interprets the SPD as
>2-2-2-8
>
>My default setting is 2.5V. Memory specs says 2.8V.
>Can that possibly affect SPD?
Hi Wayne - don't know the answer to this.
Open up a new thread, you'll get better visibilty.
Dave
 
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:25:02 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:21:20 -0600, Ed <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:48:47 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>So to me, it looks as if Dimm memory of 6-2-2 is supported.
>>>Now, the response from crucial is even more nonsensical than
>>>it first seemed. Either that or the response from RusH is correct!
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>You could just set the BIOS to use "SPD" and it should set the timings
>>correctly, but that doesn't always work correctly with all boards and
>>ram sticks, I always set the ram timings manually to spec when I can.
>>
>>You may want to test your setup with programs like Memtest86+
>>http://www.memtest.org/ and Prime95(Tests lots of Ram)
>>http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm just to make sure it's working
>>error free.
>>
>>Ed
>Ed, a couple of things, I've never had much luck with memory testers.
>If I set the timing aggresively, I will/have errors in Windiws.
>But memtest86+ never finds a problem.

That's why Prime95 is a good follow-on to memtest86+ - it runs in the
Windows environment which does things which memtest86+ doesn't. If
Memtest86+ finds no errors, it usually means you can get Windows installed
OK, though I admit, not always. It's not a bad idea to use manually set
loose timings to get Windows installed.

>Secondly, as I mentioned in another post in this thread,
>in my bios SPD seems related to interleave only,
>unless I'm misunderstanding something - but I don't
>think I am. I checked the chipset values using wpcredit.

SPD states the operating timings for the DRAM, basically Tcas, Trcp, Trp,
Tras and command rate, some of which are stated as delay time rather than
cycles IIRC. Interleave is either on or off and in current DRAMs that
means 4-way or auto-precharge and is usually controllable by a BIOS
setting.

--
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:37:32 -0500, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:25:02 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
>wrote:
>>Ed, a couple of things, I've never had much luck with memory testers.
>>If I set the timing aggresively, I will/have errors in Windiws.
>>But memtest86+ never finds a problem.
>
>That's why Prime95 is a good follow-on to memtest86+ - it runs in the
>Windows environment which does things which memtest86+ doesn't. If
>Memtest86+ finds no errors, it usually means you can get Windows installed
>OK, though I admit, not always. It's not a bad idea to use manually set
>loose timings to get Windows installed.
>
>>Secondly, as I mentioned in another post in this thread,
>>in my bios SPD seems related to interleave only,
>>unless I'm misunderstanding something - but I don't
>>think I am. I checked the chipset values using wpcredit.
>
>SPD states the operating timings for the DRAM, basically Tcas, Trcp, Trp,
>Tras and command rate, some of which are stated as delay time rather than
>cycles IIRC. Interleave is either on or off and in current DRAMs that
>means 4-way or auto-precharge and is usually controllable by a BIOS
>setting.
George, thanks for the info. I'll try and track down Prime95.
Regards,
Dave
 
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:24:06 -0800, da_test
<davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:37:32 -0500, George Macdonald

>>That's why Prime95 is a good follow-on to memtest86+ - it runs in the
>>Windows environment which does things which memtest86+ doesn't.

>George, thanks for the info. I'll try and track down Prime95.
>Regards,
>Dave
I just found something else that quickly detects memory problems.
Open an avi file in virtualdub, hold down the shift key and drag the
pointer.
It should snap to key frames. Progress thru the avi should be
smooth. With my memory timings a little too aggressive,
I got hiccups and the avi display cleared to grey screen.

I'm giving prime95 a try now.
regards,
Dave
 
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In article <g6evv09gukp303v0hcli5lkouu7tp7obpj@4ax.com>, Ed
<nomail@hotmail.com> writes
(snip)
>
>You may want to test your setup with programs like Memtest86+
>http://www.memtest.org/ and Prime95(Tests lots of Ram)
>http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm just to make sure it's working
>error free.

Sorry?
Prime95 does not "test lots of RAM". From the readme :
" SETTING AVAILABLE MEMORY
The P-1 factoring step prior to running a Lucas-Lehmer test is more
effective if it is given more memory to work with. However, if you let
the program use too much memory then the performance of ALL programs
will suffer. The good news is that 98% of the time the program uses
less than 8MB. In fact, the program will work just fine if you instruct
the program to use only 8MB or less."
etc ...
--
Roger Hunt
 
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:29:43 -0800, da_test
<davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>What is crucial telling me?

They are telling you that they believe in Corporate
PR-cover-our-ass-ism :p


--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:26:50 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:24:06 -0800, da_test
><davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:37:32 -0500, George Macdonald
>
>>>That's why Prime95 is a good follow-on to memtest86+ - it runs in the
>>>Windows environment which does things which memtest86+ doesn't.
>
>>George, thanks for the info. I'll try and track down Prime95.
>>Regards,
>>Dave
>I just found something else that quickly detects memory problems.
>Open an avi file in virtualdub, hold down the shift key and drag the
>pointer.
>It should snap to key frames. Progress thru the avi should be
>smooth. With my memory timings a little too aggressive,
>I got hiccups and the avi display cleared to grey screen.
>
>I'm giving prime95 a try now.

If you want to really pound the memory and do nothing else with the system,
it's recommended to bump the priority up a touch... under Advanced/Priority
try 8 or 9.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald
 
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On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:43:38 +0000, Roger Hunt <test@carewg.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <g6evv09gukp303v0hcli5lkouu7tp7obpj@4ax.com>, Ed
><nomail@hotmail.com> writes
>(snip)
>>
>>You may want to test your setup with programs like Memtest86+
>>http://www.memtest.org/ and Prime95(Tests lots of Ram)
>>http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm just to make sure it's working
>>error free.
>
>Sorry?
>Prime95 does not "test lots of RAM". From the readme :
>" SETTING AVAILABLE MEMORY
>The P-1 factoring step prior to running a Lucas-Lehmer test is more
>effective if it is given more memory to work with. However, if you let
>the program use too much memory then the performance of ALL programs
>will suffer. The good news is that 98% of the time the program uses
>less than 8MB. In fact, the program will work just fine if you instruct
>the program to use only 8MB or less."
>etc ...

Run it and see. The Torture Test ran up to 900MB on my 1GB system the last
time I looked. I wonder if the para you quote is either out of date or
applies to everything but the Torture Test... IOW the real work. In that
respect, note that the Torture Test runs with a low priority on recent
versions, so possibly they shuffled things around without updating the
docs.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald
 
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da_test wrote:
> Secondly, as I mentioned in another post in this thread,
> in my bios SPD seems related to interleave only,
> unless I'm misunderstanding something - but I don't
> think I am. I checked the chipset values using wpcredit.
> Dave

Why do you think that's the case? The SPD has nothing to do with
interleave. The interleave is a factor that the system itself sets
through the BIOS & chipset, but it runs the RAM at whatever settings you
specified whether it's interleaved or not. Interleaving is outside the
control of each individual DIMM, it works at the memory bank level.

Yousuf Khan
 
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 08:36:21 -0500, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
wrote:

>da_test wrote:
>> Secondly, as I mentioned in another post in this thread,
>> in my bios SPD seems related to interleave only,
>> unless I'm misunderstanding something - but I don't
>> think I am. I checked the chipset values using wpcredit.
>> Dave
>
>Why do you think that's the case? The SPD has nothing to do with
>interleave. The interleave is a factor that the system itself sets
>through the BIOS & chipset, but it runs the RAM at whatever settings you
>specified whether it's interleaved or not. Interleaving is outside the
>control of each individual DIMM, it works at the memory bank level.
>
> Yousuf Khan
Hello Yousuf,
it's only because it's an option in my Bios.
Options for "bank interleave" are 4-way, 2-way, "off" or
"by spd"

When "by spd" is chosen, 4-way is used. I checked that
using pcredit. However, choosing that setting does not alter
the memory timings in the chipset registers.
They are still selected based on two other bios settings,
"cas latency" and "Dimm memory speed"

In other words there isn't a way in my bios to set cas latency
or dimm memory speed based on any info the RAM supplies;
rather, like most Bios' they have a default based on the
most conservative; ie. cl3 and 6-3-3.

regards,
Dave
 
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In article <O4XpIKAaaHACFwAO@carewg.demon.co.uk>, Roger Hunt
<test@carewg.demon.co.uk> writes

>Sorry?
>Prime95 does not "test lots of RAM".

Run the "Torture Test". One of the test options uses "lots of RAM".

--
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(source unknown)
 
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In article <evg1015d0vrgv42sc3t8tr45slqq6hk3qj@4ax.com>, George
Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> writes
>On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:43:38 +0000, Roger Hunt <test@carewg.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>>In article <g6evv09gukp303v0hcli5lkouu7tp7obpj@4ax.com>, Ed
>><nomail@hotmail.com> writes
>>(snip)
>>>You may want to test your setup with programs like Memtest86+
>>>http://www.memtest.org/ and Prime95(Tests lots of Ram)
>>>http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm just to make sure it's working
>>>error free.
>>
>>Sorry?
>>Prime95 does not "test lots of RAM". From the readme :
(snip)
>
>Run it and see. The Torture Test ran up to 900MB on my 1GB system the last
>time I looked. I wonder if the para you quote is either out of date or
>applies to everything but the Torture Test... IOW the real work. In that
>respect, note that the Torture Test runs with a low priority on recent
>versions, so possibly they shuffled things around without updating the
>docs.
>
Ah, I see. I stand corrected.

The thing is I run P95 23.8.1 24/7, and have been for seven years or so
as a permanent fixture and long-term stability check and also as part of
GIMPS (M34406129 ATM), and have never run any torture test - just
factoring integers, so I missed that.
(If you want to convert a Mersenne integer to decimal and boggle at the
size use Mprint, http://www.apfloat.org/apfloat/ )

Apologies to all and thanks for putting me right.

Regards
--
Roger Hunt
 

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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:25:02 -0800, da_test <davexnet02NO@SPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:

>Ed, a couple of things, I've never had much luck with memory testers.
>If I set the timing aggresively, I will/have errors in Windiws.
>But memtest86+ never finds a problem.
>
>Secondly, as I mentioned in another post in this thread,
>in my bios SPD seems related to interleave only,
>unless I'm misunderstanding something - but I don't
>think I am. I checked the chipset values using wpcredit.
>Dave

Prime 95 works best for me, I mainly use memtest86 when building a new
system, if you can't pass at least a few passes you know something is
out od wack. ;p

Not sure, I've only had one or two boards where the bios let you change
interleave and it was a separate option, check the mobo manual.

Ed