A rules and an Oracle questions

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, all!

Question #1:
when Triskelion returns from Otherworldly Journey, how many +1/+1
counters are on it? Intuitively it should be 4 (cumulative from its
"comes into play" ability and from Otherworldly Journey effect), but
what are the rules that support it? Or am I wrong?

Triskelion
{6}
Artifact Creature
1/1
Triskelion comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on it.
Remove a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion: Triskelion deals 1 damage to
target creature or player.

Otherworldly Journey
{1}{W}
Instant - Arcane
Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn, return that
creature to play under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.


Question #2:
I recently came across another, fortunately insignificant, Oracle
wording difference between an old card and a newer (slightly modified)
version of it - see the 2nd ability of Phyrexian Furnace and
Scrabbling Claws. Does it just reflect a growing backlog of changes
to be made in Oracle files? (Not to mention an old *functional*
difference between reworded Urza's Armor and not-yet-reworded
Benevolent Unicorn/Lashknife Barrier).

Phyrexian Furnace
{1}
Artifact
{T}: Remove the bottom card of target player's graveyard from the
game.
{1}, Sacrifice Phyrexian Furnace: Remove target card in a graveyard
from the game and draw a card.

Scrabbling Claws
{1}
Artifact
{T}: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the
game.
{1}, Sacrifice Scrabbling Claws: Remove target card in a graveyard
from the game. Draw a card.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

arkadyz1@yahoo.com (Arkady Zilberberg) writes:
> Question #1:
> when Triskelion returns from Otherworldly Journey, how many +1/+1
> counters are on it? Intuitively it should be 4 (cumulative from its
> "comes into play" ability and from Otherworldly Journey effect), but
> what are the rules that support it? Or am I wrong?

It does indeed get four, 3 from itself and 1 from the Journey. I'm not
sure what rules you're looking for beyond the cards themselves. The
card itself says that it comes into play with 3, and the Journey says
that it comes into play with 1. There's nothing conflicting about the
instructions, you merely follow both and happen to end up with 4
counters.

> Question #2:
> I recently came across another, fortunately insignificant, Oracle
> wording difference between an old card and a newer (slightly modified)
> version of it - see the 2nd ability of Phyrexian Furnace and
> Scrabbling Claws. Does it just reflect a growing backlog of changes
> to be made in Oracle files? (Not to mention an old *functional*
> difference between reworded Urza's Armor and not-yet-reworded
> Benevolent Unicorn/Lashknife Barrier).
>
> Phyrexian Furnace
> {1}
> Artifact
> {T}: Remove the bottom card of target player's graveyard from the
> game.
> {1}, Sacrifice Phyrexian Furnace: Remove target card in a graveyard
> from the game and draw a card.
>
> Scrabbling Claws
> {1}
> Artifact
> {T}: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the
> game.
> {1}, Sacrifice Scrabbling Claws: Remove target card in a graveyard
> from the game. Draw a card.

They have a tendency to only update to new grammatical templates when
they print a card... I don't think that there's any functional
difference between the two. They probably wouldn't update the older
card's Oracle wording until either the rules change in such a way that
they have to reword it to keep it functionally similar or they reprint
it (which they won't do in this case since it cares about graveyard
order).

--
Peter C.
I've discovered that I often visit the state of confusion, and I know
my way around pretty well.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news:86mzxmg3al.fsf@pcpc.cooper.homedns.org,
Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org> rambled:
>
> arkadyz1@yahoo.com (Arkady Zilberberg) writes:
>> Question #1:
>> when Triskelion returns from Otherworldly Journey, how many +1/+1
>> counters are on it? Intuitively it should be 4 (cumulative from its
>> "comes into play" ability and from Otherworldly Journey effect), but
>> what are the rules that support it? Or am I wrong?
>
> It does indeed get four, 3 from itself and 1 from the Journey. I'm not
> sure what rules you're looking for beyond the cards themselves. The
> card itself says that it comes into play with 3, and the Journey says
> that it comes into play with 1. There's nothing conflicting about the
> instructions, you merely follow both and happen to end up with 4
> counters.
>
>> Question #2:
>> I recently came across another, fortunately insignificant, Oracle
>> wording difference between an old card and a newer (slightly
>> modified) version of it - see the 2nd ability of Phyrexian Furnace
>> and Scrabbling Claws. Does it just reflect a growing backlog of
>> changes to be made in Oracle files? (Not to mention an old
>> *functional* difference between reworded Urza's Armor and
>> not-yet-reworded Benevolent Unicorn/Lashknife Barrier).
>>
>> Phyrexian Furnace
>> {1}
>> Artifact
>> {T}: Remove the bottom card of target player's graveyard from the
>> game.
>> {1}, Sacrifice Phyrexian Furnace: Remove target card in a graveyard
>> from the game and draw a card.
>>
>> Scrabbling Claws
>> {1}
>> Artifact
>> {T}: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the
>> game.
>> {1}, Sacrifice Scrabbling Claws: Remove target card in a graveyard
>> from the game. Draw a card.
>
> They have a tendency to only update to new grammatical templates when
> they print a card... I don't think that there's any functional
> difference between the two. They probably wouldn't update the older
> card's Oracle wording until either the rules change in such a way that
> they have to reword it to keep it functionally similar or they reprint
> it (which they won't do in this case since it cares about graveyard
> order).

I don't understand why they've done away with graveyard order cards. Sure,
it can be a pain in the neck if you're sloppy, but how often do you put a
creature killed in combat on the bottom of your graveyard by mistake? Surely
graveyard order isn't the hardest problem to solve....

Anyone know why they've moved away from making graveyard order matter?

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Ken Briscoe" <youcant@sendmespam.com> writes:
> I don't understand why they've done away with graveyard order cards. Sure,
> it can be a pain in the neck if you're sloppy, but how often do you put a
> creature killed in combat on the bottom of your graveyard by mistake? Surely
> graveyard order isn't the hardest problem to solve....
>
> Anyone know why they've moved away from making graveyard order matter?

Well, it's generally a petty detail that isn't interesting enough to
make into cool mechanics, I guess. And while you might generally put
your dead creature on top of the library, do you always put the
enchantment that was enchanting him on top of the dead creature card
in the graveyard? (Since the enchantment dies shortly after the
creature does, once it realizes that its enchantee is gone.) And there
are other scenarios where casual players are likely to get it wrong,
too.

--
Peter C.
Hardware: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's @n!
> Hello, all!
>
> Question #1:
> when Triskelion returns from Otherworldly Journey, how many +1/+1
> counters are on it? Intuitively it should be 4 (cumulative from its
> "comes into play" ability and from Otherworldly Journey effect), but
> what are the rules that support it? Or am I wrong?

Four, regardless of how many it had before it took its little trip. It
comes into play as a completely new permanent with no memory of anything
that happened to it previously.

> Triskelion
> {6}
> Artifact Creature
> 1/1
> Triskelion comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on it.
> Remove a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion: Triskelion deals 1 damage to
> target creature or player.
>
> Otherworldly Journey
> {1}{W}
> Instant - Arcane
> Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn, return that
> creature to play under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.
>
>
> Question #2:
> I recently came across another, fortunately insignificant, Oracle
> wording difference between an old card and a newer (slightly modified)
> version of it - see the 2nd ability of Phyrexian Furnace and
> Scrabbling Claws. Does it just reflect a growing backlog of changes
> to be made in Oracle files? (Not to mention an old *functional*
> difference between reworded Urza's Armor and not-yet-reworded
> Benevolent Unicorn/Lashknife Barrier).

Not in a position to answer this one, though a similar question was
asked recently. The answer came back that, in some cases, the Furnace-
type wording is preferred because separating the two sentences might
suggest that they're separate sentences. But that seems more applicable
to the flip cards from Champions (which is what was being asked about)
than to this case.

> Phyrexian Furnace
> {1}
> Artifact
> {T}: Remove the bottom card of target player's graveyard from the
> game.
> {1}, Sacrifice Phyrexian Furnace: Remove target card in a graveyard
> from the game and draw a card.
>
> Scrabbling Claws
> {1}
> Artifact
> {T}: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the
> game.
> {1}, Sacrifice Scrabbling Claws: Remove target card in a graveyard
> from the game. Draw a card.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 12 Nov 2004 11:55:29 -0800, Arkady Zilberberg <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Question #1:
>when Triskelion returns from Otherworldly Journey, how many +1/+1
>counters are on it? Intuitively it should be 4 (cumulative from its
>"comes into play" ability and from Otherworldly Journey effect), but
>what are the rules that support it? Or am I wrong?

Four is correct. Both effects modify how it comes into play; neither "takes
precedence" or wipes out the other one for any reason; thus it comes into
play with three +1/+1 counters on it AND with a +1/+1 counter on it, for
separate reasons. 3 + 1 = 4.

>Question #2:
>I recently came across another, fortunately insignificant, Oracle
>wording difference between an old card and a newer (slightly modified)
>version of it - see the 2nd ability of Phyrexian Furnace and
>Scrabbling Claws. Does it just reflect a growing backlog of changes
>to be made in Oracle files?

Possibly. There is a slight difference - the 'and' wording is all one sentence
so technically takes place all at once, while the two-sentences wording
technically has one take place after the other. For the purposes of this
ability, I can't think of a way this would make any difference.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Peter Cooper Jr." <pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org> wrote in message
news:86vfcazmn4.fsf@pcpc.cooper.homedns.org...
> "Ken Briscoe" <youcant@sendmespam.com> writes:
>> I don't understand why they've done away with graveyard order cards.
>> Sure,
>> it can be a pain in the neck if you're sloppy, but how often do you put a
>> creature killed in combat on the bottom of your graveyard by mistake?
>> Surely
>> graveyard order isn't the hardest problem to solve....
>>
>> Anyone know why they've moved away from making graveyard order matter?
>
> Well, it's generally a petty detail that isn't interesting enough to
> make into cool mechanics, I guess. And while you might generally put
> your dead creature on top of the library, do you always put the
> enchantment that was enchanting him on top of the dead creature card
> in the graveyard? (Since the enchantment dies shortly after the
> creature does, once it realizes that its enchantee is gone.) And there
> are other scenarios where casual players are likely to get it wrong,
> too.
>
> --
> Peter C.
> Hardware: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.

Which brings me to a good point, lifeline says:

Lifeline

5

Artifact

Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play and another creature
is in play, return the first creature from that graveyard to play under its
owner's control at end of turn.

What would happen if My creature dies, goes to the graveyard and my opponent
removes that creature from the graveyard?
does the next creature on the top of my graveyard come into play? or does
the lifeline trigger fizzle?
Jonathan Fourie
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

WhiteLighter <whitelighter@gmx.net> wrote:

> Which brings me to a good point, lifeline says:
>
> Lifeline
>
> 5
>
> Artifact
>
> Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play and another creature
> is in play, return the first creature from that graveyard to play under its
> owner's control at end of turn.
>
> What would happen if My creature dies, goes to the graveyard and my opponent
> removes that creature from the graveyard?
> does the next creature on the top of my graveyard come into play? or does
> the lifeline trigger fizzle?

The delayed trigger fails to find the card. The phrase "first creature"
means the first creature mentioned in the trigger (as opposed to the
second creature mentioned in the trigger).

217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new
object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer
affect it. There are two exceptions to this rule: Effects that edit the
characteristics of an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell on the
stack will continue to apply to the permanent that spell creates, and
abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another
(for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play") can find
the object in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

WhiteLighter <whitelighter@gmx.net> wrote:
>> Well, it's generally a petty detail that isn't interesting enough to
>> make into cool mechanics, I guess. And while you might generally put
>> your dead creature on top of the library, do you always put the
>> enchantment that was enchanting him on top of the dead creature card
>> in the graveyard? (Since the enchantment dies shortly after the
>> creature does, once it realizes that its enchantee is gone.) And there
>> are other scenarios where casual players are likely to get it wrong,
>> too.
>
>Which brings me to a good point, lifeline says:
>
>Lifeline > >5 > >Artifact
>Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play and another creature
>is in play, return the first creature from that graveyard to play under its
>owner's control at end of turn.
>
>What would happen if My creature dies, goes to the graveyard and my opponent
>removes that creature from the graveyard?

Er ... then that creature card can't come back. (It's not a 'creature' anywhere
but in play; the "the first creature" is referring back to the last reference
to "it", which said it was a creature back then.)

>does the next creature on the top of my graveyard come into play? or does
>the lifeline trigger fizzle?

Neither. Lifeline does NOT say "return the topmost creature card in that
graveyard to play under ..."; it tracks the specific card that went there.
(It will trigger just fine for tokens, but won't be able to bring anything
back because the token will ALWAYS be gone already.) And the Lifeline trigger
is not targetted, so can't get countered for missing/illegal (which is what
the old term "fizzle" _meant_).

The triggered ability will trigger, resolve, and make the delayed triggered
ability; that delayed triggered ability, in turn, will trigger, resolve, and
do Nothing because the card it's looking for isn't in that graveyard any more.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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