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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Okay I just saw the preview card for Heartbeat of Spring, and every article
is read is making it sound like a remake of Mana Flare, but the thing i
don't see is where the mana flare effect.

Heartbeat of Spring
2G
Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that
type to his/her mana pool

and as we all know Mana flare says
"Whenever any player taps a land for mana, it produces one additional type
mana of the same type".

All your getting when you tap that land is the usual one mana. Unless
there's something I'm missing when I'm reading it.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mike Rana <mjr2k@verizon.net> wrote:

> Okay I just saw the preview card for Heartbeat of Spring, and every article
> is read is making it sound like a remake of Mana Flare, but the thing i
> don't see is where the mana flare effect.
>
> Heartbeat of Spring
> 2G
> Enchantment
> Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that
> type to his/her mana pool
>
> and as we all know Mana flare says
> "Whenever any player taps a land for mana, it produces one additional type
> mana of the same type".

What do you mean "we", paleface?

Mana Flare
{2}{R}
Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of
that type to his or her mana pool.

> All your getting when you tap that land is the usual one mana. Unless
> there's something I'm missing when I'm reading it.

Heartbeat of Spring has a triggered mana ability, not a replacement
effect. It doesn't nothing to interfere with the land's activated mana
ability or the mana produced by that.

411.3. Triggered mana abilities trigger when an activated mana ability
is played. These abilities resolve immediately after the mana ability
that triggered them, without waiting for priority. If an activated or
triggered ability produces both mana and another effect, both the mana
and the other effect resolve immediately.
Example: An enchantment reads, "Whenever a player taps a land for mana,
that land produces one additional mana of the same color." If a player
taps lands for mana while playing a spell, the additional mana is added
to the player's mana pool immediately and can be used to pay for the
spell.

411.3a If a triggered mana ability adds mana "of the same type" or "of
the same color" to a player's mana pool and the mana ability that
triggered it produced more than one type or color of mana, the player to
whose mana pool the mana is being added chooses which type or color of
mana the triggered ability adds.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:23:05 GMT, Mike Rana <mjr2k@verizon.net> wrote:
>Okay I just saw the preview card for Heartbeat of Spring, and every article
>is read is making it sound like a remake of Mana Flare, but the thing i
>don't see is where the mana flare effect.

It's a triggered mana ability.

>Heartbeat of Spring 2G Enchantment
>Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that
>type to his/her mana pool
>
>and as we all know Mana flare says
>"Whenever any player taps a land for mana, it produces one additional type
>mana of the same type".

That's its original wording. These days it says

Mana Flare 2R Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that type
to his or her mana pool.

The _Mana Flare_ makes the mana, NOT the land. And the 'additional' is
just so much reminder text; since this doesn't REPLACE the land's mana
production in any way, it can't be anything _other_ than "additional".

>All your getting when you tap that land is the usual one mana. Unless
>there's something I'm missing when I'm reading it.

You're missing something severely. The _land_ makes its usual mana, whatever
type and however much that is. The Heartbeat of Spring _also_ makes one mana.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mike Rana wrote:

> Okay I just saw the preview card for Heartbeat of Spring, and every
> article is read is making it sound like a remake of Mana Flare, but the
> thing i don't see is where the mana flare effect.
>
> Heartbeat of Spring
> 2G
> Enchantment
> Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that
> type to his/her mana pool
>
> and as we all know Mana flare says
> "Whenever any player taps a land for mana, it produces one additional type
> mana of the same type".

Then "we all know" wrong:

Mana Flare
{2}{R}
Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of
that type to his or her mana pool.


>
> All your getting when you tap that land is the usual one mana. Unless
> there's something I'm missing when I'm reading it.

It's a triggered ability. It happens *in addition* to the land's
activated mana ability. You tap the land, get mana. Then the
triggered ability goes on the stack and gets you one *more* mana
when it resolves.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:

> Heartbeat of Spring has a triggered mana ability, not a replacement
> effect. It doesn't nothing to interfere with the land's activated mana
> ability or the mana produced by that.

Whoops, a little too much editing. The second sentence should start "It
doesn't do anything ..." or "It does nothing ...".
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

idk, with that wording it doesnt seem clearcut
"Chris Mattern" <matternc@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1sWdnTc6--eyb9XcRVn-vA@comcast.com...
> Mike Rana wrote:
>
>> Okay I just saw the preview card for Heartbeat of Spring, and every
>> article is read is making it sound like a remake of Mana Flare, but the
>> thing i don't see is where the mana flare effect.
>>
>> Heartbeat of Spring
>> 2G
>> Enchantment
>> Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that
>> type to his/her mana pool
>>
>> and as we all know Mana flare says
>> "Whenever any player taps a land for mana, it produces one additional
>> type
>> mana of the same type".
>
> Then "we all know" wrong:
>
> Mana Flare
> {2}{R}
> Enchantment
> Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of
> that type to his or her mana pool.
>
>
>>
>> All your getting when you tap that land is the usual one mana. Unless
>> there's something I'm missing when I'm reading it.
>
> It's a triggered ability. It happens *in addition* to the land's
> activated mana ability. You tap the land, get mana. Then the
> triggered ability goes on the stack and gets you one *more* mana
> when it resolves.
>
> --
> Christopher Mattern
>
> "Which one you figure tracked us?"
> "The ugly one, sir."
> "...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Chris!
You wrote on Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:53:48 -0400:


>> Heartbeat of Spring
>> 2G
>> Enchantment
>> Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana
>> of that
>> type to his/her mana pool


CM> Mana Flare
CM> {2}{R}
CM> Enchantment
CM> Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one
CM> mana of
CM> that type to his or her mana pool.

CM> It's a triggered ability. It happens *in addition* to the
CM> land's
CM> activated mana ability. You tap the land, get mana. Then the
CM> triggered ability goes on the stack and gets you one *more* mana
CM> when it resolves.

Careful, Chris: it's a triggered *mana* ability, so it doesn't use the
stack.

406.1. A mana ability is either (a) an activated ability that could put
mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves or (b) a triggered
ability that triggers from a mana ability and could produce additional
mana. A mana ability can generate other effects at the same time it
produces mana.

406.4. A mana ability can be activated or triggered. Mana abilities are
played and resolved like other abilities, but they don't go on the
stack...

Regards,
Arkady.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Mike Rana <mjr2k@verizon.net> wrote:

> idk, with that wording it doesnt seem clearcut

What about Dingus Egg?

Dingus Egg
{4}
Artifact
Whenever a land is put into a graveyard from play, Dingus Egg deals 2
damage to that land's controller.

Does the 2 damage happen instead of the land being put into a graveyard?

Or Giant Badger?

Giant Badger
{1}{G}{G}
Creature -- Badger
2/2
Whenever Giant Badger blocks, it gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

Does the +2/+2 until end of turn happen instead of the blocking?

Or how about Sanctimony?

Sanctimony
{1}{W}
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent taps a Mountain for mana, you may gain 1 life.

If you gain 1 life, does that nullify the mana your opponent tapped a
Mountain for?

So why should the triggered ability of Mana Flare or Fertile Ground or
Heartbeat of Spring or Vernal Bloom be any different from these?
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Arkady Zilberberg" <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<41499547$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>...

> Careful, Chris: it's a triggered *mana* ability, so it doesn't use the
> stack.
>
> 406.1. A mana ability is either (a) an activated ability that could put
> mana into a player's mana pool when it resolves or (b) a triggered
> ability that triggers from a mana ability and could produce additional
> mana. A mana ability can generate other effects at the same time it
> produces mana.
>
> 406.4. A mana ability can be activated or triggered. Mana abilities are
> played and resolved like other abilities, but they don't go on the
> stack...

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why this is the case? Why are
mana abilities given special privileges?
Peter
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why this is the case? Why are
> mana abilities given special privileges?

Because the need to pay mana can come up at any time. If getting mana
during the resolution of Ivory Cup's triggered ability (for example) is
okay, why have getting mana at other times be different?
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

knucklehead000@yahoo.com (Peter) writes:
> "Arkady Zilberberg" <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 406.4. A mana ability can be activated or triggered. Mana abilities are
>> played and resolved like other abilities, but they don't go on the
>> stack...
>
> Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why this is the case? Why are
> mana abilities given special privileges?

Well, it'd be a little odd and different.

Let's take an example of what could happen, if mana abilities used the
stack: (Disclaimer in case you're not paying attention: this is *not*
how this actually works under the current rules.)

So, I have an Emerald Medallion in play (Green spells you play cost
{1} less to play.), along with 3 Forests. I want to play Giant Spider
(which costs {3}{G}). I pay the activated ability of each of the
Forests, each in response to the last, and get 3 "Add {G} to your mana
pool" on the stack. I need to let those resolve in order to get the
mana to play my Spider.

But, my opponent doesn't pass and let the top ability
resolve. Instead, he taps 2 Forests, lets those abilities resolve (you
have no responses as you're out of untapped lands), and plays
Naturalize targeting the Medallion.

Neither one of you have more responses, so you let each thing on the
stack resolve, which leaves you with a dead Medallion and {G}{G}{G} in
your mana pool. But, you can't play the Giant Spider, since you no
longer have enough mana to pay for it. If you can't spend the mana on
something else, you'll end up taking mana burn.

Also, you sometimes need to be able to pay something during
something's resolution (such as Ivory Cup or cycled Decree of
Justice), and you generally want to be able to play mana abilities
during a spell or ability's announcement.

So, having mana abilities use the stack kind of works unintuitively,
differently from what I think most people would expect, and in a
different way from the way the game has always been. (I think... I'm
no expert on Old Magic Rules.) Plus, you'd need to check with your
opponent each time you tapped land to see if he had a response before
you let the mana abilities resolve and played something using them.

I suppose that you could change some of the other rules to make things
work differently, but I think that you're quickly turning Magic into
some other game. Mana abilities are a different kind of "thing" than
other abilities, as they are really only there to let you play
something else.

But, you asked a good question, and it's sometimes good to run through
the consequences of changing things to see why a game works the way it
does.

--
Peter C.
"And in a radical policy change, God today announced that he *will*,
in fact, play dice with the universe."
-- tnt
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Arkady Zilberberg" <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 406.4. A mana ability can be activated or triggered. Mana abilities are
>> played and resolved like other abilities, but they don't go on the
>> stack...
>
>Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why this is the case? Why are
>mana abilities given special privileges?

So that they can provide mana at times nobody has (or gets) priority, like
activated mana abilities. If you tap a Wild Growthed land for mana _during_
the announcement of a spell to help pay for it, it would be ... suboptimal ...
if the G from the Wild Growth didn't arrive until some time later after the
spell had already long finished being announced. Same for getting mana
during the resolution of a Condescend or Power Sink, or paying for a
Propaganda or Brainwash...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Mike Rana" <mjr2k@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:J152d.5979$yJ3.3455@trndny08...
> Okay I just saw the preview card for Heartbeat of Spring, and every
article
> is read is making it sound like a remake of Mana Flare, but the thing i
> don't see is where the mana flare effect.
>
> Heartbeat of Spring
> 2G
> Enchantment
> Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that
> type to his/her mana pool
>
> and as we all know Mana flare says
> "Whenever any player taps a land for mana, it produces one additional type
> mana of the same type".
>
> All your getting when you tap that land is the usual one mana. Unless
> there's something I'm missing when I'm reading it.
>
You are tapping your land for one mana, the enchantment triggers and gives
you another mana of the same type, so you are getting two mana of the same
type. 'additional mana' and 'adds mana' does the same thing
Jonatha Fourie
Tournament Organizer
 
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