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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

does the library of leng work with
sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
still have the effect?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 19 May 2004, it was written:

> does the library of leng work with
> sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
> still have the effect?

I believe that since you discard to pay for a cost this isn't an
effect causing you to discard. So the Library won't work. But I'm not
sure.

So I looked it up:

Effect
"Ability" and "effect" are often confused with one another. When a
spell or ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or
continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous
effects. Some effects are replacement effects or prevention effects.
State-based effects are not created by spells or abilities; they are
generated by specific states of the game. See rule 416, "Effects."

It doesn't say anything about costs so I believe I'm right, but it
wouldn't hurt to say that cost don't generate effects. Dave?

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:48:24 +0930, "HATSUMI"
<TANAGY<spam>@IHUG.COM.AU> wrote:

>does the library of leng work with
>sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
>still have the effect?

Yes, you can. Land's Edge just requires you to discard a land - it
dosn't care if something modifies the discard later.

Land's Edge
{1}{R}{R}
Enchant World
Discard a card from your hand: If the discarded card is a land card,
~this~ deals 2 damage to target player. Any player may play this
ability.

Sindbad
{1}{U}
Creature -- Sindbad
1/1
{T}: Draw a card and reveal it. If it isn't a land card, discard it
from your hand.

Library of Leng
{1}
Artifact
You have no maximum hand size.
If an effect causes you to discard a card from your hand, discard it,
but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your
graveyard.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

HATSUMI <TANAGY<spam> wrote:
>does the library of leng work with
>sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
>still have the effect?

Library of Leng's replacement effect only applies to effects that discard
cards, not to costs that do so:

Library of Leng 1 Artifact
You have no maximum hand size. / If an effect causes you to discard a card,
discard it, but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your
graveyard.

[It was otherwise for a short while during Masques block, right after 6E came
in, but the mistake was quickly fixed, since it was Broken in combination with
the spellshapers...]

Sindbad has its discard as part of the ability's effect:

Sindbad 1U Creature -- Sindbad
1/1 Tap: Draw a card and reveal it. If it isn't a land card, discard it.

Library of Leng will happily replace this, letting you end up drawing a card,
revealing it, then putting it back on your deck, if you choose.

Land's Edge has its discard as its activation cost:

Land's Edge 1RR Enchant World
Discard a card: If the discarded card is a land card, ~ deals 2 damage to
target player. Any player may play this ability.

Library of Leng won't touch this at all, and will not let you 'discard to the
top of your library' to pay this cost.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hatsumi sez:

<<
>does the library of leng work with
>sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
>still have the effect?
>
>>

Well, for Land's Edge, no, because Land's Edge discard is a cost, not an
effect. Therefore, your discard will go to the graveyard, not the top of your
library.

For Sindbad, it's different, because it's the EFFECT causing you to discard, so
it can go to the top of your library.


----
"If President Bush is going to take credit for 'the invisble hand' [of
economics], then he's going to take the blame when 'the hand' gives him the
finger."
--From Fark.com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 19 May 2004, Simon Nejmann wrote:

> On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:48:24 +0930, "HATSUMI"
> <TANAGY<spam>@IHUG.COM.AU> wrote:
>
> >does the library of leng work with
> >sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
> >still have the effect?
>
> Yes, you can. Land's Edge just requires you to discard a land - it
> dosn't care if something modifies the discard later.

Land's Edge doesn't care but Library of Leng does care what caused the
discard...

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> Library of Leng
> {1}
> Artifact
> You have no maximum hand size.
> If an effect causes you to discard a card from your hand, discard it,
> but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your
> graveyard.

> Land's Edge
> {1}{R}{R}
> Enchant World
> Discard a card from your hand: If the discarded card is a land card,
> ~this~ deals 2 damage to target player. Any player may play this
> ability.

I think since this is a cost, Library of Leng can't replace the discard, as
it looks for "an effect" causing the discard.
On the other hand,

> Sindbad
> {1}{U}
> Creature -- Sindbad
> 1/1
> {T}: Draw a card and reveal it. If it isn't a land card, discard it
> from your hand.

Sinbad interacts nicely, as would any of the Looters actually, that tell you
to draw, then discard. This is because the discard is part of the effect.

Peter
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 May 2004, it was written:
>
>> does the library of leng work with
>> sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
>> still have the effect?
>
>I believe that since you discard to pay for a cost this isn't an
>effect causing you to discard. So the Library won't work. But I'm not sure.

The Library won't work with discards in costs, correct. It works fine with
discards in effects. So it works with Sindbad's discard but not with Land's
Edge's.

>It doesn't say anything about costs so I believe I'm right, but it
>wouldn't hurt to say that cost don't generate effects. Dave?

Costs are not effects and paying a cost is not an effect of any sort, also
correct. (Some effects -do- tell you to pay mana or life; that's a payment as
part of the effect. Magic tries hard these days to distinguish mana costs,
additional costs, and activation costs all from any sort of effect.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>"HATSUMI" <TANAGY<spam>@IHUG.COM.AU> wrote:
>>does the library of leng work with
>>sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
>>still have the effect?
>
>Yes, you can. Land's Edge just requires you to discard a land - it
>dosn't care if something modifies the discard later.

You can't "modify the discard later"; replacement effects get applied just
-before- the event that would occur. And Library of Leng doesn't apply to just
any old discards; only to ones from effects of spells or abilities. Land's
Edge's discard is part of its cost, so LoL's effect doesn't apply. (Something
that didn't care whether the discard was part of a cost or part of an effect
would apply to it just fine.)

>Library of Leng 1 Artifact
> You have no maximum hand size. / If an effect causes you to discard a card,
^^ ^^^^^^
> discard it, but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your
> graveyard.

The 'an effect' is crucial there.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 19 May 2004 13:20:43 +0200, David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl>
wrote:

>On Wed, 19 May 2004, Simon Nejmann wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:48:24 +0930, "HATSUMI"
>> <TANAGY<spam>@IHUG.COM.AU> wrote:
>>
>> >does the library of leng work with
>> >sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library and
>> >still have the effect?
>>
>> Yes, you can. Land's Edge just requires you to discard a land - it
>> dosn't care if something modifies the discard later.
>
>Land's Edge doesn't care but Library of Leng does care what caused the
>discard...

Hmm, I think that you are right... Guess I missed the "If an effect
causes you to" part - bah! Me stupid.

Library of Leng
{1}
Artifact
You have no maximum hand size.
If an effect causes you to discard a card from your hand, discard it,
but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your
graveyard.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

surely sinbad is forcing you to discard if you dont draw a land(conditional
effect)
ok lands edge isnt forcing you to discard, you choose whether to do so.
"Simon Nejmann" <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote in message
news:c6ima096i68kh4cg11dtuho9pj96ej6df8@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 19 May 2004 13:20:43 +0200, David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl>
> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 19 May 2004, Simon Nejmann wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:48:24 +0930, "HATSUMI"
> >> <TANAGY<spam>@IHUG.COM.AU> wrote:
> >>
> >> >does the library of leng work with
> >> >sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library
and
> >> >still have the effect?
> >>
> >> Yes, you can. Land's Edge just requires you to discard a land - it
> >> dosn't care if something modifies the discard later.
> >
> >Land's Edge doesn't care but Library of Leng does care what caused the
> >discard...
>
> Hmm, I think that you are right... Guess I missed the "If an effect
> causes you to" part - bah! Me stupid.
>
> Library of Leng
> {1}
> Artifact
> You have no maximum hand size.
> If an effect causes you to discard a card from your hand, discard it,
> but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your
> graveyard.
>
> --
> Regards
> Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 19 May 2004 21:29:04 +0930, "HATSUMI"
<TANAGY<spam>@IHUG.COM.AU> wrote:

>surely sinbad is forcing you to discard if you dont draw a land(conditional
>effect)

Right. If you use Sindbad to draw a card and it turns out to be a
non-land, then you can use the Library to discard to the top of your
library (the non Leng one :).

>ok lands edge isnt forcing you to discard, you choose whether to do so.

Hmm, when you activate an ability you are forced to pay the costs, but
then again you aren't forced to play the ability - minor word fuss of
no consequence :)

Anyway, the point was that if an _effect_ forced you to discard, then
the Library of Leng jumps in. But in this case, you discard as a cost
(cost != effect) and the Library won't care, as David pointed out.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

HATSUMI @IHUG.COM.AU> <TANAGY<spam> sent:
> "Simon Nejmann" <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote in message
> news:c6ima096i68kh4cg11dtuho9pj96ej6df8@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 19 May 2004 13:20:43 +0200, David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 19 May 2004, Simon Nejmann wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 19 May 2004 19:48:24 +0930, "HATSUMI"
>> >> <TANAGY<spam>@IHUG.COM.AU> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >does the library of leng work with
>> >> >sinbad and lands edge; can you discard onto the top of your library
> and
>> >> >still have the effect?
>> >>
>> >> Yes, you can. Land's Edge just requires you to discard a land - it
>> >> dosn't care if something modifies the discard later.
>> >
>> >Land's Edge doesn't care but Library of Leng does care what caused the
>> >discard...
>>
>> Hmm, I think that you are right... Guess I missed the "If an effect
>> causes you to" part - bah! Me stupid.

> surely sinbad is forcing you to discard if you dont draw a land(conditional
> effect)
> ok lands edge isnt forcing you to discard, you choose whether to do so.

The issue of whether you're choosing or not is largely irrelevant here.

Library of Leng {1} Artifact
You have no maximum hand size.
If an effect causes you to discard a card from your hand, discard it,
but you may put it on top of your library instead of into your
graveyard.

The ability on Library of Leng checks for whether it's an effect that
states that the discard is happening. Effects are the things that
happen when spells and abilities resolve. Anything else will pass by
the Library of Leng ability unmodified.

Sindbad {1}{U} Creature -- Sindbad 1/1
{T}: Draw a card and reveal it. If it isn't a land card, discard it
from your hand.

This card's ability has a cost of '{T}' and an effect of 'Draw a card
and reveal it. If it isn't a land card, discard it from your hand.'
Since the discard is part of an effect, the Library of Leng ability
allows you to put that card on the top of your library.

Land's Edge {1}{R}{R} Enchant World
Discard a card from your hand: If the discarded card is a land card,
Land's Edge deals 2 damage to target player. Any player may play this
ability.

This card's ability has a cost of 'Discard a card from your hand' and
and effect of 'If the discarded card is a land card, Land's Edge deals
2 damage to target player. Any player may play this ability.' Since
the discard is part of the cost and not the effect, the Library of Leng
ability has no impact here.

That's really all there is to it. If it's a cost, you can't apply the
Library of Leng ability. If it's an effect, you can.

--
-- zoe
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

HATSUMI <TANAGY<spam> wrote:
>surely sinbad is forcing you to discard if you dont draw a land(conditional
>effect)

Correct.

>ok lands edge isnt forcing you to discard, you choose whether to do so.

Correct.

Library of Leng doesn't care whether the discard was forced or chosen. (I
can't think offhand of anything that does.) It cares whether the discard was
part of a cost or part of an effect... but can replace forced discards in
effects just as easily as it can chosen discards in effects.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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