Air Cooling a Case - Need my plans doublechecked

[ShirraWhitefur]

Thanks for the time to take a glance, folks.

Anyways, as I look at building my new system, I want to run a few questions past others with more knowledge than I.
First, the planned pieces..

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813135024
ECS KA3 MVP Socket AM2 ATI CrossFire Radeon Xpress 3200 ATX Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103631
AMD Athlon 64 3800+ Orleans 2000MHz HT 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231081
G.Skill 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 533 (PC2 4200) Dual Channel Kit
(And yes, I know, it's 'only' 533. Consider that I'm upgrading from using Dimm's, not even DDR, at 100 only.. Not worried.)
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=321999
MSI RX1800GTO-VT2D256E Radeon X1800 GTO PCI Express 256MB DDR3 Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817103495
Enermax Coolergiant EG485AX-VHB SFMA 2.0 ATX12V 480W
(And yes, that seems to me more than I need, but err on the side of caution..)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119047
Cooler Master Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UB SECC Chassis ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835220013
SILVERSTONE FM122 120mm 2 Ball Case Cooling Fan
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835220009
SILVERSTONE RL-FM81 80mm 2 Ball Case Cooling Fan (x2)

Add to that, a single dvd burner and two hard drives. One of 100 gig, and the other either 100 or 160 gig.

Anyhow. The planned setup is to fit the silverstone 80mm's up with one intake in the front, one exhaust at the case's side vent for the CPU.. The 120mm exhausting out the back. The power supply draws from inside the case and exhausts out the back as well.
If recommended, I'd be putting a pci slot exhaust fan at the bottom of the case to help draw away heat from the GPU as well.
Take into account please that, in theory, air will draw through most of the front of the case, even if only in limited amounts, as the most of the front is a mesh grill, and not one solid totally obstructing piece.
Air should draw especially nicely along the two hard drives in front.

Now the questions. Does this seem like 'sound' planning? Will the airflow be effecient and smooth, or jumbled up with turbulance? Too little intake?

Also, do the particular fans seem a good choice? I'm idly curious if I'll have to setup their specific controllers for all three, as I've heard mention they tend not to work with other controller panels.
I'm -not- looking for quiet. I'm not looking for 'silent' running PC.. I'm looking for something that can handle dealing with a home that lacks air conditioning and enjoys hot summers.. So I have to deal with things like room temps of 95 degrees (fahrenheit, 35 in celcius) at times, and yet be able to use the system.

As it is, I have to take my old case and make it squeal out under the usage of a dremel.. remove a useless and dead fan-controller from it's front plate and actually get a fan in there. It's been surviving these 'fun' days with a paired 12" window fan blowing into it and 20" box fan blowing away from it. .. The fun of lack of funds for so long, you learn to make do. 😉

Anyways, even more questions to add. In fahrenheit, my average drive temps (with this current huge fan setup) is running 90-95's on the hard drives, 100 overall case temp, and 110-120 CPU temp. Are these -acceptable- amounts? My secondary lil' crappy box that I setup for the roommate is running 110 case, 120 hard drive, and unknown CPU temp (stupid offbrand motherboard), which I'm -really- uncomfy looking at.

Having lost a couple of drives and even a CPU to heat damage of the years, I've become downright paranoid over cooling.. but being on a budget, I been unable to afford the watercooling work.. and with how often I have to move, I'm doublely leary of it. So air-cooling is how I'm working.

Anyways.. Advice, tips, and bludgeonings of knowledge giving are wholeheartedly welcome. ^_^

- Shirra Whitefur

 

[ShirraWhitefur]

For starters the fan on the side of the case sould be blowing air into the CPU not drawing air away. CPU HSFs generaly blow air down onto the HS. So you want that fan to supply it with nice cool air not draw air away. Other then that everything else is fine.

I figured that much in most cases, but I wasn't sure if, considering the front grill, it might be better as an exhaust. Allrighty, intake it is. ^_^

I have found that the key to good airflow throught the case is having more ehaust fans then intake. Consider a 1:2 ratios of intake to exhaust. As long as you have more air leaving the case you will have a good stream of air running through the system. It's when you have more air entering then leaving that causes turbulance and hot spots to form.
With the fans oriented correctly you will have sufficant airflow to keep things cool. You won't have to worry about heat problems. Unless there is somthign seriously wrong.

So I'm pretty much okay on that layout, overall. If I have troubles with too much intake due to the front of the case, it'll be time to either block up parts of that, or add a blowhole on top.
To help settle on that ratio though, I'm going to likely want to run the processor chips intake at more 'sane' speed, unlike the rear exhaust, heh.

That leaves my other question. Temperatures. Time to rephrase it.

Are there any sites that list 'average' running and maximum safe running temperatures for various components, most specificially motherboard, CPU, GPU and hard drive?
I'm wagering I'm going to get stuck diving into manufacturers specs to get exact numbers for maximums.. I'm honestly more interested in realworld numbers, averages for people who's systems may run a little hot, and what -they- consider temps to shut off at. I'd be happy to be able to verify that I'm being overparanoid about temperatures. (Erring on the side of caution is so much more preferable than heat damaged components.)

Thanks for the time!
- Shirra Whitefur

 

[ShirraWhitefur]

Well as far as i know with your CPU your temps shouldn't be more the 42c at idle. If CPU temps get of 50c you may runn into problems. Most GPU's will runnin the range of 40-50c. Once again anything over 50c will be trouble. With you HDD right there next to the front of the case you should see no problems. Overall keep things under 50c and you will be fine. I think with most CPU's and GPU's that they wount go thermal on you till about 90c or greater. Or may be it's 70c. i don't really remeber. i just try to keep things under 50C.

😛eers at a converter: Lets see, that'd be about 107f idle, 122f 'tops' for the 50's, and so on. Okay, that's -very- good to know. Gives me more 'breathing room' on the current case for temps, so after I work on it, it should be perfectly ready for the roommate. :bounces: Sweet! ^_^

Thanks again for your time there.

- Shirra Whitefur

 

[I]

Those are crap fans, get something better- a major fan manufacturer's brand (of fan). The increase in airflow you might get from running then at mid or high speed is a poor flow:noise ratio relative to just increasing RPM of the rear 120mm exhaust fan... so buy the 80mm fans with low RPM like a Panaflo L1A, then undervolt them a little if your room environment (temp) allows for it.

The side fan for CPU exhaust isn't really necessary. It'll be robbing the PSU of some airflow too, unless those front grills on the case are larger perforations than they look to be. One problem with such perforations is also that they tend to have sharp inner edges and may catch dust, and be a PITA to clean out.

Don't feel that you're "making due" with an old case, many of the old ones are far better than what's sold today. Used to be you could get a 1.2mm thick steel case that was sturdy enough to jump up and down on, had solid (no holes) panels so you could cut a custom perfect fan hole without the airflow being undermined by too many other holes where they shouldn't be. It does depend on how old they were though, and how small as not so many are wide enough (and have accomodating ledge next to the IO panel) to put a 120mm fan in the rear. Newer cases do tend to have better drive racks though, and that's always nice.

Frankly I'd try the case first with no side panel fan and no front fan. These two will produce sound that gets back to your ears more easily, and if you have only the upper exhaust fans you may even be able to just leave the slot cover off the slot under the video card to help reduce air circulation there, providing all the extra holes in the case side and rear are plugged. Not that this is the only way to do it, but I'm thinking of getting most done with least airflow and using the most efficient flow:noise fans to do it. Could be that your system isn't cool enough like that, I don't know what your room temps will be year-round.

With only one optical drive, you'll be wanting to block those other 5-1/4 faceplates so they don't rob air from the bottom front of the case.

 

[13thmonkey]

Have a look at these tests, ignore the overfanned case. but the rest of tests do put some credence behind a planned flowpath of air in your case. Or perhaps that there is not much in it with exception of some 'daft' paths, depends on how you read it.

Link to case fan configuration testing.

Hope this helps.

Its amazing what you can find with Google....

 

[clue69less]

Well as far as i know with your CPU your temps shouldn't be more the 42c at idle. If CPU temps get of 50c you may runn into problems.

Many people disagree with 50C as a limit. My 4400+ ran stock clock at about 46C or so under load. Overclocked to 2.6GHz, it is running ~51 or 52C under load with no problems and I've talked to experienced AMD overclockers that think of 60C as acceptable. I have not heard anyone say that AM2 CPUs are more heat sensitive than S939. I'd be more worried if the OP was running a very high VCore than a 50+ CPU temp. Aside from all that, I do strive for the lowest temps possible.

Most GPU's will runnin the range of 40-50c. Once again anything over 50c will be trouble.

I gotta call BS on this statement. GPUs commonly run in the 70 to 90C range under load with no problems. I've got a 1900 XFire system and have measured GPU temps by software and by thermocouple in the low 70s under load at stock clock, in the 80s OC'ed and have been told that these temps are totally acceptable on numerous forums, including Toms. GPUs run hot! That's one reason why a rear-exhausting GPUs like the ATIs I have are bonus.

With you HDD right there next to the front of the case you should see no problems. Overall keep things under 50c and you will be fine. I think with most CPU's and GPU's that they wount go thermal on you till about 90c or greater. Or may be it's 70c. i don't really remeber. i just try to keep things under 50C.

Cooler is better, no doubt about it, but CPU/GPU death is typically a product of temps and VCore. Either can do the kill alone if run high enough.

 

[ShirraWhitefur]

Have a look at these tests, ignore the overfanned case. but the rest of tests do put some credence behind a planned flowpath of air in your case. Or perhaps that there is not much in it with exception of some 'daft' paths, depends on how you read it.

Link to case fan configuration testing.

Hope this helps.

Its amazing what you can find with Google....

Aww, but the over-fan cases are cute.. in an, 'Oh my god, what the heck?' reaction provoking way. 😉 Anyways.. Thank you actually, that's an interesting piece, and is giving me rather interesting ideas for the other cases I have laying around, some top blowhole experimentations. As for what I can find with google.. well, to say 'I found mixed information and much of it seemingly misinformed' would be a heck of an understatement. After trying to figure out how things should run best via searching and asking local friends for the past while.. it was time to ask people with better knowledge.

Many people disagree with 50C as a limit. My 4400+ ran stock clock at about 46C or so under load. Overclocked to 2.6GHz, it is running ~51 or 52C under load with no problems and I've talked to experienced AMD overclockers that think of 60C as acceptable. I have not heard anyone say that AM2 CPUs are more heat sensitive than S939. I'd be more worried if the OP was running a very high VCore than a 50+ CPU temp. Aside from all that, I do strive for the lowest temps possible.

I'll keep that in mind.. I'll probably be leary if the system hits 55c, which hopefully won't be a problem in the first place. ^_^

GPUs commonly run in the 70 to 90C range under load with no problems. I've got a 1900 XFire system and have measured GPU temps by software and by thermocouple in the low 70s under load at stock clock, in the 80s OC'ed and have been told that these temps are totally acceptable on numerous forums, including Toms. GPUs run hot! That's one reason why a rear-exhausting GPUs like the ATIs I have are bonus.

That is darn hot indeed. I'm looking forward to hopefully being able to get the GPU's sensor data easily, as that's something I'm not getting currently. I have had issues with overheating my current lil' piece of.. A radeon 9800 se pro. Usually causes the texture memory to.. well, I believe the most applicable term would be corrupt, if not scramble to all heck. Turning it off and letting it cool under a fan gets it running normally again in a few minutes.
Something I'm looking forward to not dealing with again. ^_^

Thanks again for teaching me new things, folks.
- Shirra Whitefur

 

[ShirraWhitefur]

Just thought of something I kept forgetting.

For checking temperatures and such, I tend to use Motherboard Monitor 5, and occassionally, the last free release of Everest. Obvously the latter isn't all that handy for 'at a glance' checking of the temperatures.
Seeing as there's note about MBM5 being rather out of date now (works great for me, honestly, but..), I was wondering if there are any alternative programs folk might recommend that can compete with MBM's handiness, yet are actively updated.

- Shirra Whitefur

 

[13thmonkey]

Have a look at these tests, ignore the overfanned case. but the rest of tests do put some credence behind a planned flowpath of air in your case. Or perhaps that there is not much in it with exception of some 'daft' paths, depends on how you read it.

Link to case fan configuration testing.

Hope this helps.

Its amazing what you can find with Google....

Aww, but the over-fan cases are cute.. in an, 'Oh my god, what the heck?' reaction provoking way. 😉 Anyways.. Thank you actually, that's an interesting piece, and is giving me rather interesting ideas for the other cases I have laying around, some top blowhole experimentations. As for what I can find with google.. well, to say 'I found mixed information and much of it seemingly misinformed' would be a heck of an understatement. After trying to figure out how things should run best via searching and asking local friends for the past while.. it was time to ask people with better knowledge.

I found it ages ago, and got lucky with [Cooling configurations pc] in google as I was trying to find it again. It has been the only test that I have seen that scientifically tests fan configurations, although they did miss out top + rear + front as this is a common configuration and incidentally the P180 config that I was researching for at the time.

I would also say beware of strong opinions and loud voices posing as knowledge. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but research and forums go hand in hand fairly well.

Try using Speedfan?

 

[306maxi]

Well as far as i know with your CPU your temps shouldn't be more the 42c at idle. If CPU temps get of 50c you may runn into problems.

Many people disagree with 50C as a limit. My 4400+ ran stock clock at about 46C or so under load. Overclocked to 2.6GHz, it is running ~51 or 52C under load with no problems and I've talked to experienced AMD overclockers that think of 60C as acceptable. I have not heard anyone say that AM2 CPUs are more heat sensitive than S939. I'd be more worried if the OP was running a very high VCore than a 50+ CPU temp. Aside from all that, I do strive for the lowest temps possible.

Most GPU's will runnin the range of 40-50c. Once again anything over 50c will be trouble.

I gotta call BS on this statement. GPUs commonly run in the 70 to 90C range under load with no problems. I've got a 1900 XFire system and have measured GPU temps by software and by thermocouple in the low 70s under load at stock clock, in the 80s OC'ed and have been told that these temps are totally acceptable on numerous forums, including Toms. GPUs run hot! That's one reason why a rear-exhausting GPUs like the ATIs I have are bonus.

With you HDD right there next to the front of the case you should see no problems. Overall keep things under 50c and you will be fine. I think with most CPU's and GPU's that they wount go thermal on you till about 90c or greater. Or may be it's 70c. i don't really remeber. i just try to keep things under 50C.

Cooler is better, no doubt about it, but CPU/GPU death is typically a product of temps and VCore. Either can do the kill alone if run high enough.

I'd tend to agree. Those figures quoted are far too conservative for my liking. Of course lower is better but I wouldn't be concerned if the temps went over what that MP dude said. Especially for GPU's as they are far more tolerant of heat than CPU's. I really wish people would engage their brains before just spewing out random figures as people sometimes do......