News All the pains of Intel: from CPU design and process technologies to internal clashes and political pressure

Paywalled, didn't read, not gonna pay. Intel is doomed. We know WHY...they sat on their laurels for a decade thinking AMD would never be able to dethrone them. Hubris has a tendency to bite you square in the butt...Intel deserves it.
It was only partly AMD, mostly TSMC. 3D fabric is a TSMC innovation, and if AMD chips consumed considerably more power the non 3D just wouldn't be able to compete, much less win. Raptor Lake is still DUV lithography. AMD did not make EUV, they ordered it from TSMC, like 3D cache. The 9950X would not look very good compared to the 13900k if it were on 10++.
 
It was only partly AMD, mostly TSMC. 3D fabric is a TSMC innovation, and if AMD chips consumed considerably more power the non 3D just wouldn't be able to compete, much less win. Raptor Lake is still DUV lithography. AMD did not make EUV, they ordered it from TSMC, like 3D cache. The 9950X would not look very good compared to the 13900k if it were on 10++.
somehow you turned intel failings into AMD mediocrity. amazing blue goggles, do you work for Userbenchmark?

Here is the facts of the matter. In 2011 with complete domination in hand in the pc market and the new smartphone/tablet market opening up Intel took a gamble. they were going to prioritize mobile cpus, with the end goal of shrinking their x86/x64 leading Core tech down to mobile sizes and voltages, bringing the desktop to the tablet, with an eye toward dominating the mobile market as well. This shift in design philosophy emphasized node shrinkage, and power savings over performance gains. they also split off a large chunk of their engineering department to work on the Atom processor as a stopgap to get their foot in the door at the mobile level while they attempted to transition desktop power to mobile form factor.

-note, intel was not interested in the desktop market that they now owned, it was not their priority. and enter an era of 5%-10% performance gains largely from efficiency gains and node shrinks.

well Atom failed, hundreds of thousands of manhours and millions of dollars of money burnt, and the node shrinking hit a hard technical wall intel couldn't overcome...

Intel, still with no real competition in desktop chose to attack the node shrink issues and pored all their R&D into fixing their problems getting past 10nm, meanwhile Intel had hit the limits of their Core cpu structure with Skylake. they relied on lithography improvements and increased clock speeds to stretch out the lifespan of the chip design, rather then design a new one, as all their assets and time and money were being pored into their node shrinkage... this looped them 6 generations of refreshes with no significant design changes while they milked the pc public.

What's fascinating is Intel had gone through a few CEO changes over this time, and it's largely believed they were still pushing the desktop on mobile design philosophy due to lack of direction from the top. as far as the top was concerned as long as money rolled in everything was good, so the design philosophy and direction of their R&D wasn't really touched...

Ryzen hit the market between the eyes, but Intel were slow to recognize the problem. if you all remember Ryzen one hit the market in 2017... during the 1st skylake refresh (7th gen). Intel still didn't wake up to the problem Ryzen represented, because at the time Ryzen, while competitive was still behind by about 5% in IPC (ryzen launched with very low clocks, and while it was about on par with intel at 4ghz, the clock speeds of 8th gen opened up a significant 15% or more lead in actual performance). Furthermore Intel had just started in on it's lithography issues and still believed it was a minor problem they could lick with a little more time.

While Ryzen went through it's growing pains intel stretched out the skylake architecture for 5 more refreshes pumping clocks and languishing on 10nm... lack of direction from the top and confused mission in engineering meant intel was mostly just playing with themselves while the house burnt down around them

They wouldn't wake up to the problem they had made for themselves until Ryzen 3 and x3d hit the markets. REALLY late in the game to realize they had lost hold of the market. But i think they could have survived this had they not completely dropped the ball on datacenter cpus. That was where AMD did the real damage to intel. While AMD/Intel cpus were a toss up durring ryzen 3, in datacenters it wasn't even a game anymore, with AMD server cpus vastly out performing intel xeon chips, by significant margins, in pretty much every metric, power draw, core count and raw performance. AMD's chiplet design really showed it's power in the datacenter market, and that was were AMD made it's fastest and most significant inroads and did the biggest damage to Intel's profits.

Intel's xeon architecture is really showing it's age, unlike the rest of the skylake refreshes intel couldn't just increase the clock speeds to make up for a lack of technical design improvements.
 
Here is the facts of the matter. In 2011 with complete domination in hand in the pc market and the new smartphone/tablet market opening up Intel took a gamble. they were going to prioritize mobile cpus, with the end goal of shrinking their x86/x64 leading Core tech down to mobile sizes and voltages, bringing the desktop to the tablet, with an eye toward dominating the mobile market as well. This shift in design philosophy emphasized node shrinkage, and power savings over performance gains. they also split off a large chunk of their engineering department to work on the Atom processor as a stopgap to get their foot in the door at the mobile level while they attempted to transition desktop power to mobile form factor.
Unfortunately Future brought the axe down on Anandtech so linking you the appropriate article isn't possible anymore, but Intel did not take mobile seriously. If they had they'd have used a more performant design, but the margins for mobile was tiny. Qualcomm passed Intel in CPU shipments in the 2010s, but had a fraction of the revenue from those sales. As early as IVB Intel had core architecture running as low as 4W (they did not release anything of the sort). The Atom chips were built to be as cheap as possible while not encroaching on the performance of Core SKUs.
stretched out the skylake architecture for 5 more refreshes pumping clocks and languishing on 10nm...
Skylake generations were 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 and they were only on 14nm.
While AMD/Intel cpus were a toss up durring ryzen 3, in datacenters it wasn't even a game anymore, with AMD server cpus vastly out performing intel xeon chips, by significant margins, in pretty much every metric, power draw, core count and raw performance.
It wasn't until Milan that AMD was better across the board. They broke in with core counts and PCIe connectivity and kept improving each generation. This is certainly where the chiplet design caught Intel flat footed and they had no response.
 
Unfortunately Future brought the axe down on Anandtech so linking you the appropriate article isn't possible anymore,
A mod mentioned they're moving the content to another hosting provider, although it's been redirecting to the forums for more than a week, so... I guess I'll believe it when I see it.

In the meantime, you can link via www.archive.org. When I tried it, even the search feature of Anandtech worked, meaning I could still use it to find articles!
 
While Ryzen went through it's growing pains intel stretched out the skylake architecture for 5 more refreshes pumping clocks and languishing on 10nm... lack of direction from the top and confused mission in engineering meant intel was mostly just playing with themselves while the house burnt down around them
Aren't you saying same thing? Intel either failed or didnt prioritize to solve its 10nm issues and fell behind while AMD benefited from continuous process advancements by TSMC. Not saying AMD didn't innovate, but without the process boost from TSMC, even AMD would have had trouble.

Also, Intel focused on reducing the power consumption of their CPUs, but not perf improvements. Because their competition was ipads and iphones, not AMD from 2010 till around 2018.
 
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Skylake generations were 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 and they were only on 14nm.

It wasn't until Milan that AMD was better across the board. They broke in with core counts and PCIe connectivity and kept improving each generation. This is certainly where the chiplet design caught Intel flat footed and they had no response.
Yep and that's why there was so much confusion through that era as desktop chips stayed stuck on 14 nm (all the way to 11th gen -- Rocket Lake -- which backported Ice Lake's 10 nm cores and newer architecture) while laptop chips went to 10 nm since smaller dies didn't crush Intel's margins on their flailing 10nm node. Cannon Lake was Intel's first CPU on 10 nm ("9th gen"), but it was mobile only and a paper launch product since 10 nm wasn't healthy yet (only one SKU was released, a little dual-core Core-i3 I believe). Ice Lake followed that up and actually showed up in some numbers in laptops.

Not that we have to nitpick on details, but I think it just illustrates the mess that Intel was in during those years. Deflecting Intel's softness today rather than holding them accountable for their own failures doesn't help anyone or anything. This article provided a great summary, although there are still many details of the 2010's that folks need to be aware of and understood in their context to paint an accurate grand picture of why things are the way they are today.
 
somehow you turned intel failings into AMD mediocrity. amazing blue goggles, do you work for Userbenchmark?

Here is the facts of the matter. In 2011 with complete domination in hand in the pc market and the new smartphone/tablet market opening up Intel took a gamble. they were going to prioritize mobile cpus, with the end goal of shrinking their x86/x64 leading Core tech down to mobile sizes and voltages, bringing the desktop to the tablet, with an eye toward dominating the mobile market as well. This shift in design philosophy emphasized node shrinkage, and power savings over performance gains. they also split off a large chunk of their engineering department to work on the Atom processor as a stopgap to get their foot in the door at the mobile level while they attempted to transition desktop power to mobile form factor.

-note, intel was not interested in the desktop market that they now owned, it was not their priority. and enter an era of 5%-10% performance gains largely from efficiency gains and node shrinks.

well Atom failed, hundreds of thousands of manhours and millions of dollars of money burnt, and the node shrinking hit a hard technical wall intel couldn't overcome...

Intel, still with no real competition in desktop chose to attack the node shrink issues and pored all their R&D into fixing their problems getting past 10nm, meanwhile Intel had hit the limits of their Core cpu structure with Skylake. they relied on lithography improvements and increased clock speeds to stretch out the lifespan of the chip design, rather then design a new one, as all their assets and time and money were being pored into their node shrinkage... this looped them 6 generations of refreshes with no significant design changes while they milked the pc public.

What's fascinating is Intel had gone through a few CEO changes over this time, and it's largely believed they were still pushing the desktop on mobile design philosophy due to lack of direction from the top. as far as the top was concerned as long as money rolled in everything was good, so the design philosophy and direction of their R&D wasn't really touched...

Ryzen hit the market between the eyes, but Intel were slow to recognize the problem. if you all remember Ryzen one hit the market in 2017... during the 1st skylake refresh (7th gen). Intel still didn't wake up to the problem Ryzen represented, because at the time Ryzen, while competitive was still behind by about 5% in IPC (ryzen launched with very low clocks, and while it was about on par with intel at 4ghz, the clock speeds of 8th gen opened up a significant 15% or more lead in actual performance). Furthermore Intel had just started in on it's lithography issues and still believed it was a minor problem they could lick with a little more time.

While Ryzen went through it's growing pains intel stretched out the skylake architecture for 5 more refreshes pumping clocks and languishing on 10nm... lack of direction from the top and confused mission in engineering meant intel was mostly just playing with themselves while the house burnt down around them

They wouldn't wake up to the problem they had made for themselves until Ryzen 3 and x3d hit the markets. REALLY late in the game to realize they had lost hold of the market. But i think they could have survived this had they not completely dropped the ball on datacenter cpus. That was where AMD did the real damage to intel. While AMD/Intel cpus were a toss up durring ryzen 3, in datacenters it wasn't even a game anymore, with AMD server cpus vastly out performing intel xeon chips, by significant margins, in pretty much every metric, power draw, core count and raw performance. AMD's chiplet design really showed it's power in the datacenter market, and that was were AMD made it's fastest and most significant inroads and did the biggest damage to Intel's profits.

Intel's xeon architecture is really showing it's age, unlike the rest of the skylake refreshes intel couldn't just increase the clock speeds to make up for a lack of technical design improvements.
Nicely put! 👍
 
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Unfortunately Future brought the axe down on Anandtech so linking you the appropriate article isn't possible anymore, but Intel did not take mobile seriously.
I didn't notice. There's likely to be multiple archives of every article out there (you could force multi-page articles to display as one page) and *probably* a directory of them made by archivists, but that is still an incredible nuisance.
 
somehow you turned intel failings into AMD mediocrity. amazing blue goggles, do you work for Userbenchmark?

Here is the facts of the matter. In 2011 with complete domination in hand in the pc market and the new smartphone/tablet market opening up Intel took a gamble. they were going to prioritize mobile cpus, with the end goal of shrinking their x86/x64 leading Core tech down to mobile sizes and voltages, bringing the desktop to the tablet, with an eye toward dominating the mobile market as well. This shift in design philosophy emphasized node shrinkage, and power savings over performance gains. they also split off a large chunk of their engineering department to work on the Atom processor as a stopgap to get their foot in the door at the mobile level while they attempted to transition desktop power to mobile form factor.

-note, intel was not interested in the desktop market that they now owned, it was not their priority. and enter an era of 5%-10% performance gains largely from efficiency gains and node shrinks.

well Atom failed, hundreds of thousands of manhours and millions of dollars of money burnt, and the node shrinking hit a hard technical wall intel couldn't overcome...

Intel, still with no real competition in desktop chose to attack the node shrink issues and pored all their R&D into fixing their problems getting past 10nm, meanwhile Intel had hit the limits of their Core cpu structure with Skylake. they relied on lithography improvements and increased clock speeds to stretch out the lifespan of the chip design, rather then design a new one, as all their assets and time and money were being pored into their node shrinkage... this looped them 6 generations of refreshes with no significant design changes while they milked the pc public.

What's fascinating is Intel had gone through a few CEO changes over this time, and it's largely believed they were still pushing the desktop on mobile design philosophy due to lack of direction from the top. as far as the top was concerned as long as money rolled in everything was good, so the design philosophy and direction of their R&D wasn't really touched...

Ryzen hit the market between the eyes, but Intel were slow to recognize the problem. if you all remember Ryzen one hit the market in 2017... during the 1st skylake refresh (7th gen). Intel still didn't wake up to the problem Ryzen represented, because at the time Ryzen, while competitive was still behind by about 5% in IPC (ryzen launched with very low clocks, and while it was about on par with intel at 4ghz, the clock speeds of 8th gen opened up a significant 15% or more lead in actual performance). Furthermore Intel had just started in on it's lithography issues and still believed it was a minor problem they could lick with a little more time.

While Ryzen went through it's growing pains intel stretched out the skylake architecture for 5 more refreshes pumping clocks and languishing on 10nm... lack of direction from the top and confused mission in engineering meant intel was mostly just playing with themselves while the house burnt down around them

They wouldn't wake up to the problem they had made for themselves until Ryzen 3 and x3d hit the markets. REALLY late in the game to realize they had lost hold of the market. But i think they could have survived this had they not completely dropped the ball on datacenter cpus. That was where AMD did the real damage to intel. While AMD/Intel cpus were a toss up durring ryzen 3, in datacenters it wasn't even a game anymore, with AMD server cpus vastly out performing intel xeon chips, by significant margins, in pretty much every metric, power draw, core count and raw performance. AMD's chiplet design really showed it's power in the datacenter market, and that was were AMD made it's fastest and most significant inroads and did the biggest damage to Intel's profits.

Intel's xeon architecture is really showing it's age, unlike the rest of the skylake refreshes intel couldn't just increase the clock speeds to make up for a lack of technical design improvements.
Not a lot of time to read it, but apparently you think that AMD would be doing just as well if Ryzen was on Glofo 28nm?
Seems like a whole lot of deflecting from my point that without a better process node and 3d cache AMD would still be behind.
 
Not a lot of time to read it, but apparently you think that AMD would be doing just as well if Ryzen was on Glofo 28nm?
Seems like a whole lot of deflecting from my point that without a better process node and 3d cache AMD would still be behind.
no, I'm simply saying Intel's mistakes that lead to today's collapse date back to 2011 and some terrible decisions made at the top, combined with mechanically/engineering challenges that they simply couldn't overcome no matter how much money they threw at it.

combined with a lack of mission focus from the top, intel was too slow to respond to the changing marketplace having failed to recognize the true danger Ryzen represented until the 5000 series (3rd gen) launched. and by then they had sunk billions into failed directions and products and research, and frankly 3rd gen was too late to pivot and address their problems on desktop.

I'm saying that team blue's mistakes were systemic and date back to 2011.
 
It was only partly AMD, mostly TSMC. 3D fabric is a TSMC innovation, and if AMD chips consumed considerably more power the non 3D just wouldn't be able to compete, much less win. Raptor Lake is still DUV lithography. AMD did not make EUV, they ordered it from TSMC, like 3D cache. The 9950X would not look very good compared to the 13900k if it were on 10++.
Not understanding your argument here...but AMD has been "fabless" for quite a while. They have been working hand in hand with TSMC on their designs while Intel has been fumbling with their own fabs...and now, the new CEO is ditching investment into their own fabs, so the bleeding will continue, or even accelerate.
The average customer doesn't know, nor do they care, what process node is used, who fabricates the chips, who packages them or any of the other esoteric stuff than nerds like us dig into...they only care about results. How much does the chip cost, what performance level does it offer, and how reliable is it? Intel has failed on all fronts there. And they have been doing it for about 3 generations now.

"Nova Lake" is probably their last chance. If it fails to live up to the hype...if applications can't take full advantage of all of those cores...or if Zen 6 beats it by over 20%...it's over for Intel.
 
The average customer doesn't know, nor do they care, what process node is used, who fabricates the chips, who packages them or any of the other esoteric stuff than nerds like us dig into...they only care about results. How much does the chip cost, what performance level does it offer, and how reliable is it? Intel has failed on all fronts there.
Ryzen launched with about half of the features that where promised and never got the second half, had serious compatibility issues with ram but not only from day one, serious issues with mobos and bioses, several generations of CPUs that would not reach advertised clocks, promised platform support for far too long resulting in bioses being incapable of supporting all the CPUs and/or having vrms that where nowhere near capable of handling later cpus, and a couple of generations that would just explode out of nowhere.

It seems to me that amd failed far more here.
 
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Ryzen launched with about half of the features that where promised and never got the second half, had serious compatibility issues with ram but not only from day one, serious issues with mobos and bioses, several generations of CPUs that would not reach advertised clocks, promised platform support for far too long resulting in bioses being incapable of supporting all the CPUs and/or having vrms that where nowhere near capable of handling later cpus, and a couple of generations that would just explode out of nowhere.

It seems to me that amd failed far more here.
Zen ONE had issues...Zen 2 blew past them like they didn't even exist in the first place. On the other hand, Intel's CPUs have been downright DEFECTIVE for two generations, then followed up by the current "arrow lake" which, while not self-destructive/defective, are severely outperformed by the competition to the point where no sane consumer would even consider them.

If you fail on ONE gen, you can recover...but Intel has failed for THREE gens. And burned up any willingness to give them leeway by their inability to admit fault with their defective CPUs. So they not only need to regain the performance crown, but they need to prove to customers that they will stand behind their products...and I doubt they will do either.
 
Zen ONE had issues...Zen 2 blew past them like they didn't even exist in the first place. On the other hand, Intel's CPUs have been downright DEFECTIVE for two generations, then followed up by the current "arrow lake" which, while not self-destructive/defective, are severely outperformed by the competition to the point where no sane consumer would even consider them.

If you fail on ONE gen, you can recover...but Intel has failed for THREE gens. And burned up any willingness to give them leeway by their inability to admit fault with their defective CPUs. So they not only need to regain the performance crown, but they need to prove to customers that they will stand behind their products...and I doubt they will do either.
I don't see it that way, Rocket lake is still pretty freaking good for my use case, although I have a standard 13900, and I keep wanting to upgrade, shoot when you could get a 265K with Mobo and Ram for around $300 I almost pulled the trigger, but I am really looking for a solid upgrade, and I am hoping within a year they will release something performant that brings me along. But I am still rocking DDR4 config and the computer does everything I need, I have no need for more performance, even with an old GTX1080 (Although i have a 2080 TI in a box I should install).

To summarize, there are plenty of us waiting for Intel to release a compelling upgrade, and meteor was skipped for desktop, we got rocket refresh, no upgrade there, then we have arrow lake, for SFF or low power, decent, but buggy launch, needed another 3-6 months of software work, I hear it is much better now but still loses high power performance in most scenarios to Rocket (Cost of going from monolithic to disaggregated). I believe Intel will hit its stride on the next couple of launches and I will be ready to jump in then. AMD hasn't had to drop prices much with the lack of competition, while Intel 265k is what, half the price of launch. We sorely need competition here.

Lastly on the degradation bit, if you got an HX chip and are impacted ,I would be pissed ,last I heard they only were really support desktop users impacted. I have had zero issue, but I still benefit thanks to the extended warranty coverage given to all. I don't see an issue with the response, its unfortunate but I don't believe it is as much as an impact as say every x3D chip beating Intel CPU handily on most gaming titles. intel needs a x3D competitor like 2 years ago, they need to learn how to be scrappy and compete again.
 
I don't see it that way, Rocket lake is still pretty freaking good for my use case, although I have a standard 13900, and I keep wanting to upgrade, shoot when you could get a 265K with Mobo and Ram for around $300 I almost pulled the trigger, but I am really looking for a solid upgrade, and I am hoping within a year they will release something performant that brings me along. But I am still rocking DDR4 config and the computer does everything I need, I have no need for more performance, even with an old GTX1080 (Although i have a 2080 TI in a box I should install).

To summarize, there are plenty of us waiting for Intel to release a compelling upgrade, and meteor was skipped for desktop, we got rocket refresh, no upgrade there, then we have arrow lake, for SFF or low power, decent, but buggy launch, needed another 3-6 months of software work, I hear it is much better now but still loses high power performance in most scenarios to Rocket (Cost of going from monolithic to disaggregated). I believe Intel will hit its stride on the next couple of launches and I will be ready to jump in then. AMD hasn't had to drop prices much with the lack of competition, while Intel 265k is what, half the price of launch. We sorely need competition here.

Lastly on the degradation bit, if you got an HX chip and are impacted ,I would be pissed ,last I heard they only were really support desktop users impacted. I have had zero issue, but I still benefit thanks to the extended warranty coverage given to all. I don't see an issue with the response, its unfortunate but I don't believe it is as much as an impact as say every x3D chip beating Intel CPU handily on most gaming titles. intel needs a x3D competitor like 2 years ago, they need to learn how to be scrappy and compete again.
OK, keep fanboying away and let us know how that works out for you.
 
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Not understanding your argument here...but AMD has been "fabless" for quite a while. They have been working hand in hand with TSMC on their designs while Intel has been fumbling with their own fabs...and now, the new CEO is ditching investment into their own fabs, so the bleeding will continue, or even accelerate.
The average customer doesn't know, nor do they care, what process node is used, who fabricates the chips, who packages them or any of the other esoteric stuff than nerds like us dig into...they only care about results. How much does the chip cost, what performance level does it offer, and how reliable is it? Intel has failed on all fronts there. And they have been doing it for about 3 generations now.

"Nova Lake" is probably their last chance. If it fails to live up to the hype...if applications can't take full advantage of all of those cores...or if Zen 6 beats it by over 20%...it's over for Intel.
My argument is simple.
AMD did not and could not "beat" Intel alone. TSMC played a major, if not dominant role in AMD's performance improvements relative to their intel counterpart chips in the consumer area. Take away TSMC and AMD would have had Samsung and no 3D cache. And would trail.
 
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If you call having to turn down your overclocking a bit defective, on an otherwise completely working CPU, then what do you call CPUs EXPLODING? Do you call it a feature? Stop calling other people fanboys and take a long good look in the mirror.
It will still fail...this is a defect, not a simple clocking issue. and yeah, you are a fanboy who ignores logic.
 
My argument is simple.
AMD did not and could not "beat" Intel alone. TSMC played a major, if not dominant role in AMD's performance improvements relative to their intel counterpart chips in the consumer area. Take away TSMC and AMD would have had Samsung and no 3D cache. And would trail.
Whatever you say, buddy. The FACT is that they ARE beating Intel, and not by a little. Ascribe it to whatever you wish.
 
"Nova Lake" is probably their last chance. If it fails to live up to the hype...if applications can't take full advantage of all of those cores...or if Zen 6 beats it by over 20%...it's over for Intel.
Is this 20% figure pulled out of thin air? I'm just curious, because AMD's publicly-released performance numbers on Zen 6 servers don't support that, when you look at the per-core increase. Leaked Intel docs put Nova Lake's per-core increase at slightly north of 10% and I'd ballpark Zen 6's gains as similar (the actual number I computed was 13.3%, but that was a multi-core context).

Incidentally, the same leaked Intel doc puts the 52-core version of Nova Lake at only about 60% faster than the current 24-core Arrow Lake.

 
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