Question Alternative to tp link omada

[Mombro]

Hi guys,

I'm having lots of issues in my house regarding WiFi. I have the tp link omada solution, including router, hw controller and 3 APs, of which 1 is in the technics room, 1 in the sleeping room on the other end of the floor, and 1 upstairs in the living room. The APs are set to channel 1 and 6; 11 is reserved for zigbee.

First of all, the app of omada is crap. I can't even apply a static ip to a device, but have to open the cloud Web app, which is ultra crap, too.

Second, the APs have the worst range I have ever seen. It's like 6 meters from the AP in the living room to the toilet and there's like 15% WiFi signal strength. It's two doors or 2 concrete walls. That's like nothing for 2,4ghz... Before you ask, the signal strength is on "high".

Third, the error reporting in omada is really <Mod Edit>, like... It says there we tcp no flag attacks, but it doesn't say where it is coming from. It says that 1 ap is sometimes "full" or overloaded, but it's not like I had 100 devices. It makes no sense.

Fourth, I've ordered an apu (I think it's called) to install opnsense on it, so it would make sense to drop tp link omada and separate router and WiFi.

I've been thinking about the well known competitor, Unifi, but I'm already having trouble finding the correct devices out the the trillion they have. Also, it's on the more expensive side.

What I haven't said so far:
- I'm not using vlans
- poe is required
- mesh is required
- don't need WiFi 6, I think. 5ghz and 2,4 GHz is fine. I don't expect this to change at home for the next 10 years (?), and WiFi 6 is kinda expensive...

So, any idea for a better solution that would suit me more?

Thanks a lot in advance! Love you guys

 

[kanewolf]

Hi guys,

I'm having lots of issues in my house regarding WiFi. I have the tp link omada solution, including router, hw controller and 3 APs, of which 1 is in the technics room, 1 in the sleeping room on the other end of the floor, and 1 upstairs in the living room. The APs are set to channel 1 and 6; 11 is reserved for zigbee.

First of all, the app of omada is crap. I can't even apply a static ip to a device, but have to open the cloud Web app, which is ultra crap, too.

Second, the APs have the worst range I have ever seen. It's like 6 meters from the AP in the living room to the toilet and there's like 15% WiFi signal strength. It's two doors or 2 concrete walls. That's like nothing for 2,4ghz... Before you ask, the signal strength is on "high".

Third, the error reporting in omada is really <Mod Edit>, like... It says there we tcp no flag attacks, but it doesn't say where it is coming from. It says that 1 ap is sometimes "full" or overloaded, but it's not like I had 100 devices. It makes no sense.

Fourth, I've ordered an apu (I think it's called) to install opnsense on it, so it would make sense to drop tp link omada and separate router and WiFi.

I've been thinking about the well known competitor, Unifi, but I'm already having trouble finding the correct devices out the the trillion they have. Also, it's on the more expensive side.

What I haven't said so far:
- I'm not using vlans
- poe is required
- mesh is required
- don't need WiFi 6, I think. 5ghz and 2,4 GHz is fine. I don't expect this to change at home for the next 10 years (?), and WiFi 6 is kinda expensive...

So, any idea for a better solution that would suit me more?

Thanks a lot in advance! Love you guys

What do you mean by "mesh" is required? Do you mean single SSID/password or do you mean wireless uplink?

 

[Mombro]

What do you mean by "mesh" is required? Do you mean single SSID/password or do you mean wireless uplink?

I mean Hand-over from one AP to the next when I'm moving through the house. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network)

Also, it would be great to have a LAN output on the ap. I have that with tp links, too, a the moment, so I can attach a wired device, too, where ethernet ports are scarce 🙈

 

[kanewolf]

I mean Hand-over from one AP to the next when I'm moving through the house. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_mesh_network)

Also, it would be great to have a LAN output on the ap. I have that with tp links, too, a the moment, so I can attach a wired device, too, where ethernet ports are scarce 🙈

I asked that because for Ubiquiti "mesh" means wireless uplink. Your device is in control of what WIFI source it connects to. The WIFI access point is not. You turn DOWN the transmit power on your APs to limit the overlap. That allows devices to roam. WIFI was not designed like cellular to hand off. Could you spend thousands on a commercial system that might do that? YES. But you also say UniFI is too expensive.
Since you only want WIFI 5 (2.4 and 5Ghz AC) then you could buy used UniFI hardware. Nano AP or AC-PRO APs. That would be the lower cost option.
I have a full Ubiquiti UniFI system.

 

[bill001g]

Before you get too far down this path what do you do that you really need to have the device roam between the AP. I hope you are not watching netflix and falling down the stairs in your house .

In general roaming problems are because you have too much signal in your house. Many people put in way too many remote wifi units. The end device which actually is in charge of doing the roaming will stay connected to a weaker signal to avoid causing interruptions constantly scanning for other radio sources. You need to turn down the radio transmit power so you get as little overlap as possible but is still enough to provide service to the nearby devices. That will let the device that is roaming correctly switch over.

In many cases by the time you walk to the other room the device will figure it out and switch. If not you just stop and start the wifi and it will generally pick the correct radio source to connect to.

 

[Mombro]

Before you get too far down this path what do you do that you really need to have the device roam between the AP. I hope you are not watching netflix and falling down the stairs in your house .

In general roaming problems are because you have too much signal in your house. Many people put in way too many remote wifi units. The end device which actually is in charge of doing the roaming will stay connected to a weaker signal to avoid causing interruptions constantly scanning for other radio sources. You need to turn down the radio transmit power so you get as little overlap as possible but is still enough to provide service to the nearby devices. That will let the device that is roaming correctly switch over.

In many cases by the time you walk to the other room the device will figure it out and switch. If not you just stop and start the wifi and it will generally pick the correct radio source to connect to.

I don't quite think I have roaming issues at home at the moment. That's the only thing that's working.

Why do I need it? Eg because I'm using WiFi telephony instead of cellular because we have bad connection here in Germany (famous for that). Also, I'm doing video calls on WhatsApp, and sometimes have a mobile game open on my phone while I'm changing floors and it would disconnect. It can't even handle switching for WiFi to mobile because there would be a timeout.

Used unifi nano sounds good. They are at 100€ on Ebay. Don't I need a controller, too?

 

[kanewolf]

I don't quite think I have roaming issues at home at the moment. That's the only thing that's working.

Why do I need it? Eg because I'm using WiFi telephony instead of cellular because we have bad connection here in Germany (famous for that). Also, I'm doing video calls on WhatsApp, and sometimes have a mobile game open on my phone while I'm changing floors and it would disconnect. It can't even handle switching for WiFi to mobile because there would be a timeout.

Used unifi nano sounds good. They are at 100€ on Ebay. Don't I need a controller, too?

A controller is just free software. You can run a controller 24/7 or just when you desire to make changes. I run the controller software 24/7 on a PI4 with PiHole. I started running it on a laptop, only when I wanted to change something, but as I got more UniFI hardware it was easier to run it on dedicated hardware. IMO, you should use the controller software at least to do configurations. If you use a windows laptop, remember to temporarily disable the firewall on the laptop.

 

[Mombro]

A controller is just free software. You can run a controller 24/7 or just when you desire to make changes. I run the controller software 24/7 on a PI4 with PiHole. I started running it on a laptop, only when I wanted to change something, but as I got more UniFI hardware it was easier to run it on dedicated hardware. IMO, you should use the controller software at least to do configurations. If you use a windows laptop, remember to temporarily disable the firewall on the laptop.

Oh, ok, that sounds easy! I have a pihole at the moment anyway and a spare pi lying around too.

Can someone help me a bit understand the differences between different unifi hardware, though?

Like, nano vs Swiss army knife?

Is there a way to extend the WiFi without a network cable connection, ie as repeater?

Is there an AP with an additional LAN port for places where I only have 1 port? (bad planning on my end)

 

[kanewolf]

Oh, ok, that sounds easy! I have a pihole at the moment anyway and a spare pi lying around too.

Can someone help me a bit understand the differences between different unifi hardware, though?

Like, nano vs Swiss army knife?

Is there a way to extend the WiFi without a network cable connection, ie as repeater?

Is there an AP with an additional LAN port for places where I only have 1 port? (bad planning on my end)

The different APs are just different generations of hardware.
The in-wall APs have additional ports available. I don't know which others do.
The one thing I will stress is don't fall for the naming conventions that UniFI has. The "Mesh" units are no different than the discus units, except in form factor. The "Long Range" generally have similar range as the others, except in wide open spaces. In home, use, not a significant difference.
Also, UniFI is not plug-and-go. You have to tune your system. That means tweaking the transmit power on each AP at a minimum.

Are you planning on replacing your router? A lot of the functionality is in the router.

There are scripts to assist with the controller installation -- https://community.ui.com/questions/...Encrypt-/ccbc7530-dd61-40a7-82ec-22b17f027776

 

[Mombro]

Also, UniFI is not plug-and-go. You have to tune your system. That means tweaking the transmit power on each AP at a minimum.

Are you planning on replacing your router? A lot of the functionality is in the router

That sounds awful! I don't want to tweak my WiFi... I just want it to work...

Also, I'm planning to switch to opnsense router/firewall. I just ordered an apu, I think it's called that 😊

 

[bill001g]

There is no magic when it comes to wifi. People that do layout designs for large companies make a large amount of money because of how much detail knowledge is involved. You have to tune the wifi so there is as little overlap in signal as possible but it still can provide good signal to the devices near it. If everything was 1 big open room it would be easier but when you have wall and ceiling blocking signals. Commercial installs also have the added issue of dynamically changing loads, such as when a bunch of employees go to a conference room.

The key problem is you are trying to force the end device to do what you want. Again the end device not the network decides where to connect.
A very common error home user make is they put in too much wifi. They then think the end device will somehow magically switch to the nearest wifi source but it seldom works that way. It is much more common for the end device to stay connected to a remote source because the signal levels are not below its threshold to switch. In effect they don't need the second radio souce but they think more "bars" means it is faster which is not always true.

If you actually want this to have its best chance at roaming you have to do all the work. Most home consumers who are buying mesh systems just think it runs better but they do not really scientifically test it just like they don't want to do any design. It just makes them "feel" like the money spent accomplished something.

 

[kanewolf]

That sounds awful! I don't want to tweak my WiFi... I just want it to work...

Also, I'm planning to switch to opnsense router/firewall. I just ordered an apu, I think it's called that 😊

If that is your plan, then IMO, UniFI is not for you.

 

[Mombro]

If that is your plan, then IMO, UniFI is not for you.

Then what is?

 

[Mombro]

There is no magic when it comes to wifi. People that do layout designs for large companies make a large amount of money because of how much detail knowledge is involved. You have to tune the wifi so there is as little overlap in signal as possible but it still can provide good signal to the devices near it. If everything was 1 big open room it would be easier but when you have wall and ceiling blocking signals. Commercial installs also have the added issue of dynamically changing loads, such as when a bunch of employees go to a conference room.

The key problem is you are trying to force the end device to do what you want. Again the end device not the network decides where to connect.
A very common error home user make is they put in too much wifi. They then think the end device will somehow magically switch to the nearest wifi source but it seldom works that way. It is much more common for the end device to stay connected to a remote source because the signal levels are not below its threshold to switch. In effect they don't need the second radio souce but they think more "bars" means it is faster which is not always true.

If you actually want this to have its best chance at roaming you have to do all the work. Most home consumers who are buying mesh systems just think it runs better but they do not really scientifically test it just like they don't want to do any design. It just makes them "feel" like the money spent accomplished something.

Thanks for the explanation, but the does not get me any further.

What is your suggestion?

 

[Mombro]

Maybe I should have put this altogether more concise:

I want my WiFi in my house and the surrounding area to just work, everywhere, with a good coverage, and seamlessly, 2.4+5 GHz, some APs should have an additional LAN outlet

 

[bill001g]

There is no way someone here on a forum can tell you details of how you design wifi. Can't know you house layout, which rooms have ethernet jacks, how much the walls eat the signals, if the walls are made from concrete...etc.

The way you do it with as little effort is to just plug a AP device into ever ethernet wall jack you have. You now have the maximum coverage and strongest signal you can possibly have. If your devices stay connected to the wrong source then you try to adjust the power or you just live with it. For something like wifi calling it doesn't use a lot of bandwidth so it connected to the wrong AP will not hurt much. Too much wifi can cause as many issues as not enough.

You do not need any fancy AP or mesh you can just use cheap routers running in AP mode. The main difference will be if you want to say change the wifi password you will have to get into each unit and set it manually. The fancy systems let you change it once in all units for example.

 

[kanewolf]

Then what is?

I don't have a recommendation. You want advanced features but you want plug-and-play. I don't know of something that does both.

 

[Mombro]

I don't have a recommendation. You want advanced features but you want plug-and-play. I don't know of something that does both.

You mean poe? 😉 What advanced features did I list, except maybe additional lan port on the ap 🤔🙈

 

[kanewolf]

You mean poe? 😉 What advanced features did I list, except maybe additional lan port on the ap 🤔🙈

You want seamless roaming. That is NOT a basic feature. POE is mostly foolproof, but there are still 24VDC POE devices being sold.

 

[Mombro]

There is no way someone here on a forum can tell you details of how you design wifi. Can't know you house layout, which rooms have ethernet jacks, how much the walls eat the signals, if the walls are made from concrete...etc.

The way you do it with as little effort is to just plug a AP device into ever ethernet wall jack you have. You now have the maximum coverage and strongest signal you can possibly have. If your devices stay connected to the wrong source then you try to adjust the power or you just live with it. For something like wifi calling it doesn't use a lot of bandwidth so it connected to the wrong AP will not hurt much. Too much wifi can cause as many issues as not enough.

You do not need any fancy AP or mesh you can just use cheap routers running in AP mode. The main difference will be if you want to say change the wifi password you will have to get into each unit and set it manually. The fancy systems let you change it once in all units for example.

Mh, ok, that's kind of a sad message 🤣 I mean, other people have bigger houses and less APs and it's working for them, too, while they have less knowledge of what they're doing 😆 I'm kinda sad at the moment about this...

So I'm left with "buy more APs"? 😢

 

[kanewolf]

Mh, ok, that's kind of a sad message 🤣 I mean, other people have bigger houses and less APs and it's working for them, too, while they have less knowledge of what they're doing 😆 I'm kinda sad at the moment about this...

So I'm left with "buy more APs"? 😢

That won't magically fix your problems. You admit you don't want to do any tuning.

 

[Mombro]

That won't magically fix your problems. You admit you don't want to do any tuning.

Then what will? Tuning?
OK! How do I do that? I looked into omada config and can vary between 9-20dB. I turned the ap in the cellar down to 9 so it won't interfere with living room area. That did not improve my connection, though. What else could I try?

You're following a very negative approach, I must say, as if you were a consultant, without providing solutions or ideas how to fix things, like an administrator.

 

[kanewolf]

Then what will? Tuning?
OK! How do I do that? I looked into omada config and can vary between 9-20dB. I turned the ap in the cellar down to 9 so it won't interfere with living room area. That did not improve my connection, though. What else could I try?

You're following a very negative approach, I must say, as if you were a consultant, without providing solutions or ideas how to fix things, like an administrator.

I would start with trying a basic WIFI survey. If you have an Android phone you can use WIFI Analyzer.
This thread has some discussion -- https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/nqo1x3/home_wifi_survey_resources/

 

[Mombro]

I would start with trying a basic WIFI survey. If you have an Android phone you can use WIFI Analyzer.
This thread has some discussion -- https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/nqo1x3/home_wifi_survey_resources/

I hate to say, I'm stupid.

That was a good idea, mate. I have several additional WiFis of other devices that spam the channels. I'll shut them all down and see what happens then

 

[kanewolf]

Then what will? Tuning?
OK! How do I do that? I looked into omada config and can vary between 9-20dB. I turned the ap in the cellar down to 9 so it won't interfere with living room area. That did not improve my connection, though. What else could I try?

You're following a very negative approach, I must say, as if you were a consultant, without providing solutions or ideas how to fix things, like an administrator.

The other thing about "tuning" is that you want your 2.4Ghz power lower than 5Ghz. That will cause your devices to use 5Ghz over 2.4Ghz.