Am I crazy: Windows/Linux together

[serpah]

I'm a developer who was recently hired by a startup to build out their initial infrastructure and tooling. The users all use excel and I'm thinking of using linux for the servers...so how does that work, is it possible to do stuff like create an internal domain, maintain desktop security without a windows domain controller?

 

[ex_bubblehead]

SAMBA can do that.

 

[Tom Tancredi]

Yeah but there is issues later when trying to involve Exchange (standard Microsoft Email), using 'Groupware' tools like Project or Exchange, and desktop 'security' authentication that Microsoft 'expects' you to do. This is really key with the move to 'Azure' with the first step of Server 2013 and Windows 8, that makes a 'virtual' desktop / SaaS first steps that the 'Microsoft' servers would provide the apps and so on in the back end.

 

[ex_bubblehead]

SAMBA 4 works just fine with Exchange Server and Windows 8.

 

[Ijack]

If you have to ask the question then don't even think of it. You do not have the knowledge to set up a stable, secure system. TBH, I think the company needs to employ a knowledgeable network consultant, rather than a developer, to set this .

As has been said, you can use Samba for file and print sharing but you will miss out on a lot of security and management abilities that Windows Server provides.

 

[stillblue]

Yes, you can. In addition to samba you may want to install openmeetings for whiteboard conferences and ejabberd for internal messages. Installing webmin sacrifices some security for a lot of ease of use and functionality.

I disagree with Ijack in that it is no harder to learn than a Windows server and it sounds like you are fairly new to using servers in the first place and would have to learn either one that you use. To make it secure you have to research some just as you would Windows server.
Heres a link to the ubuntu server guide section you may find usefull at this stage.
https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/serverguide/samba-ldap.html

 

[Ijack]

It seems perverse, in a small company, to have to provide support for both Windows and Linux. You are using Windows for the clients so it makes sense to use Windows for the server too. That way whoever is to support it only has to learn Windows.

My main point remains the same. Setting up a secure network to cope with the demands of a business is a job for someone who knows what they are doing. It may be more expensive in the short term to employ a qualified networking consultant but it will pay for itself in the end. At least use someone who knows what is possible and does not have to glean basic knowledge from an Internet forum.

Edit: This article - http://www.infoworld.com/d/networking/samba-4-review-no-substitute-active-directory-yet-211318 - is worth a read as it discusses the suitability, or otherwise, of Samba as a Windows Server replacement. In particular note the remarks about multiple DCs. Any robust AD network, however small it is, needs at least two DCs to provide redundancy.

 

[Tom Tancredi]

Tosses my DotCom cents in. I was hired by the CEO of TheMan.com specifically for the same scenario. The Developers were all Unix/Linux sorts coding like heck, but the 'business side' needed Windows desktops, Windows applications, and so on. I came in and I sat down did a analysis of what the 'business side' needed, and while we had Unix/Linux boxes and a domain, it was easiest to setup the 'business folks' pure Windows then let the servers handle the cross talk for file sharing, print services, access to the WAN, and so on.

Basically I had to setup Domain /File/ Print Servers first, then the Exchange Servers, the Backup Server, install UPS, get a backup system and configure the whole thing, installed and setup, managed, and daily 'trouble fires' all by myself. For a startup it can be fine but when they keep hiring it gets harder especially with reimaging PCs, setting up paths, etc. for each.

Today's Microsoft enviroment is alot more GUI easy, but that requires more investment. Alot of it is going into making VMs, since you don't use all the memory and cores of a File Server, so why not split it into two dedicated servers, one for Exchange and one for files all on one hardware platform, and so on. It has become VERY specialized, that companies normally ONLY hire MCSAs now. I would HIGHLY follow the suggestion of a consultant to do a similiar analysis, then project plan, cost benefits ratio, and finally implementation plan and management. You will need to iron out some specifics, like some startups are very nervous that the 'admins' can 'access' anything, so having a iron clad legal agreement and the lawyers to back it up is important on the side of your business privacy.

I'd offer my services (I am a Business Systems Analysis with a MIS and over 20years doing the actual 'work') but I think I am a bit too far to help

 

[Ijack]

It's good to get input from someone who actually has experience of doing this sort of work in a business environment. It is very easy for those without such experience to look at Samba and say "That does (most of) what Windows does, and it's free" without a real understanding of the realities of a network in such a scenario. Someone who has been through the process a number of times can offer far more valuable advice than those who have not set up business networks. That's why you pay consultants when you don't have the relevant knowledge and experience yourself.

 

[stillblue]

Tom, Ijack. In a perfect world we'd hire experts for everything and that is good advice but we don't know the OPs situation. For all we know they live in their cars and rummage dumpsters for lunch while they develop their company. So it is also useful to help direct OP through some of his/hers immediate concerns. I had to learn on my own because there is no-one here to help. I did collaborate some with a UN peacekeeper and we both learned a lot by challenging each other but in the end his was a short stay and I was left with the net.

By all means recommend professional advice but throw a bone too.

 

[Ijack]

For all we know they live in their cars and rummage dumpsters for lunch while they develop their company.

In that case I'd suggest that the company in question needs to hire a better developer. Someone living in their car and rummaging dumpsters is not, IMO, going to do the best job.

When we are talking about businesses, whose employees depend upon the stability of the business and its infrastructure for their livelihood, I think it is more important to give sound advice than to throw bones. I have to say that if someone does not know enough about Linux, and can't do the research to find out, to know the answer to this question then they are not going to do a good job of setting up a company network using Linux. The result is likely to be wasted money and unemployed people.

 

[stillblue]

And if the company doesn't have $20 grand to spend then you suggest they wait until they do?

 

[Ijack]

And if the company doesn't have $20 grand to spend then you suggest they wait until they do?

If it costs $20,000 I would suggest they are being ripped off.

By all means recommend professional advice but throw a bone too.

I appreciate that you have a different point of view (and an innate hatred of Microsoft) but please don't tell me what I should or should not post. I always post what I believe to be the best solution to a problem.

A viable alternative, of course, is to go for a Linux only solution, saving enough money to pay for the consultant. Either that or a Windows only solution is better than a hybrid IMO; a hybrid gives you the worst of both worlds.

 

[stillblue]

A viable alternative, of course, is to go for a Linux only solution, saving enough money to pay for the consultant. Either that or a Windows only solution is better than a hybrid IMO; a hybrid gives you the worst of both worlds.

Voila! A bone. If finances don't allow for the purchase of an MS server license you have given the best alternative in your opinion. To expand, if the users are strickly Excel users then LibreOffice needs to be shown to them as an alternative that allows for linux on their desktops first or they could use excel in the cloud.


Contempt not hatred of MicroSoft.

 

[Tom Tancredi]

A viable alternative, of course, is to go for a Linux only solution, saving enough money to pay for the consultant. Either that or a Windows only solution is better than a hybrid IMO; a hybrid gives you the worst of both worlds.

Voila! A bone. If finances don't allow for the purchase of an MS server license you have given the best alternative in your opinion. To expand, if the users are strickly Excel users then LibreOffice needs to be shown to them as an alternative that allows for linux on their desktops first or they could use excel in the cloud.


Contempt not hatred of MicroSoft.

Not really a bone, a Dream and Fantasy actually.

Really when you speak to the new Sales guy, the receptionist, or even the CFO, all they care about and are familiar with and 100% always the same way is MICROSOFT. So offering LibreOffice and trying to induce a love of Linux just is 'too much techie for me'. Heck trying to get them to PLUG IN A MOUSE is too technical! (been there done that too many times!)

Users want simple point blank RED EASY BUTTON, nothing more technical then that. These 800lb gorrillas keep you employed and don't want to learn Linux, heck they don't care how you even spell it. All they want is what they have at other companies, what they have at home, what they know: Microsoft.

So while I completely get where your coming from, when 'business' comes into this (we aren't just geek coders we actually have to do all that 'business garbage stuffs now) then sorry, you need to pay up until something radically changes the market again.

 

[Ijack]

Linux is an alternative for some particular specialized cases (but I must admit I was being a bit fanciful in suggesting it). For example, my son works for a small Internet startup and they run on Linux. But they are all techies who know what they are doing. In the general case - and certainly when someone comes to Tom's forums and asks the question - it's not a viable possibility.

If you have to ask then it almost certainly won't work for you - at least not with paying a Linux consultant just as much as you would pay a Windows one. Corporate networking is not a game for amateurs; there's just too much to get wrong and your company probably depends upon your IT infrastructure.

 

[stillblue]

Tom, I do not deny the resistance to change but that doesn't mean that alternatives should be rejected out of hand. We don't know if the OP was looking at Linux because of budget constraints, idle curiosity or he's heard how widespread Linux servers have become.

For example, I live in the DR Congo and work in a government building to help them computerise their work. At first everyone wanted windows but when new equipment arrived I would dual boot install Ubuntu and then give training on both to people that often haven't even used calculators before. Now I would estimate that 80% of the computers run Ubuntu exclusively because of ease of use and the wide range of software I install for them (I use a remastersys copy of what I have on my computer). The other 20% is for those who believe that since "everyone else" uses windows they have to as well. These are the same people that refuse to use the pop3 account using our domain name because "everyone else" is on yahoo. Slowly they come around because everyone else mocks them, "In the time it takes you to open your yahoo password I've already downloaded and read my mail." And don't get me started on viruses.

I have installed a network proxy and the network is to allow for internal communications and file sharing. The server also acts as a firewall and will be used for data backup when we get some more drive space. Linux is not only the best option in this case it is the only option as a windows server license is way out of our price range.

If the OP has no budget and only needs file sharing, printer sharing and backup and firewall then a linux server is fine and priced right.

 

[Tom Tancredi]

Stillblue: You proved your own case. In a region without competition (the government workers weren't competing for profit), to people whom "haven't even used calculators before", in a region where a $100US would feed a family for a year, yes LINUX is a golden solution to assist with BASIC computing use.

In Corporate America, were in the time I wrote this a few hundred transactions were done, expectations for 24x7 instant support, and common trading of 'proprietary' file standards (doc, xls, etc.) to exact that business all from people ingrained with and only see one solution, MICROSOFT. This OP is in this enviroment, and never said 'budget of 0'. I worked with 0 budgets before, I know how hard it is, if not impossible, but the CEO, CFO, the person answering the phone are ALL Microsoft users and wants the full functions 'they demand' out of it, which requires a Microsoft backend to accomplish it.

Now if they want simple Pop email, file sharing, and some printing, yeah they can get buy with some very simple devices (I had one that fit in the palm of my hand was Linux based, and a dream to manage). But that is 'BASICS'. When we are tying to 'share calanders', schedule meeting rooms, collaborate on proposal documents, quantify and calculate the mean value of sales via the CFO customized spreadsheet, and so on; these are ALL business aspects that are interdependent on Microsoft Groupware functions. Nevermind if you start getting into having a Project Manager using Project, doing WBS and so on. Then OMG tell him / her they can't use half of the tools in it because 'we went Linux', might as well just clean out your desk.

I am not denying or refuting Linux has a niche space, and can perfrom alot of tasks. But when it comes to BUSINESS there is demands the Linux with all it's "software alternatives" isn't the SAME THING as Microsoft (for very good reasons!). That doesn't cut it for the NON-Tech CEO, CFO, etc. they don't care, they want what they want, they come up with the capital for it or not and that is the way it goes in business.

 

[stillblue]

Hey Tom, yes Microsoft makes some good products, never denied that.

(for very good reasons!)

Some of which are the basis of my contempt for the company.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me with the push towards cloud computing many of your points are becoming less important. With PHP, HTML5 and other cross platform software more and more is residing on the server or the cloud and any computer with chromium or firefox can access them reguardless of the computer's OS. Using my example again, I have put the entire bookeeping program on the server, including payroll. It's entirely in PHP. It took me about four months to learn PHP and write the program. Since it is done specifically for them it comes not with an instruction book but rather a leaflet.
You mentioned niche. In my view every business should be reguarded as a niche. Like you have said, you have to evaluate each setup to maximize functionality while minimalizing maintenance. Sometimes that's pure windows, sometimes not but I maintain the sometimes not are becoming more frequent especially as more people are using their own devices to work and there are more devices with linux and OS X on them than have Windows now. More and more software is moving in the direction of cross platform or server side computing based. LibreOffice, OpenMeetings and WebCalendar are a few business aimed programs off the top of my head that we use. Jitsi and Thunderbird as well.

For further examples look at the dominance growing in europe of libreoffice and linux.
Yes, by all means you'd better be versed in Windows, corporate America is not so agile, just look at how many are going down to the wire with XP. I think it would behoove anyone getting into systems managment to start getting some linux under their hats as well.

 

[Tom Tancredi]

If your dealing with European marketspace, or say Asian marketspace, or even South American or African, you should pick the best solution supported in the area and can continue to maximize business value.

That said, Thunderbird does not integrate with Exchange to share Calanders at the 'simplist one click level' consumers get with Outlook. Thunderbird / nor Libre Office can tie into Back Office for Project to integrate percentage results of completion in Work Breakdown Schedule, nor on the fly show current and project project costs based on the therom inputted during the Project development phase. OS X makes all those using the expensive and highly supported Apple products a great 'easy' product, but still it was Apple that broke down and begged MS to create Office for Mac so the Apple's could do the very same thing (intergration with Microsoft backend) I am talking about. And so on and so forth.

Every business can't be looked at as a niche, as every business is expected to perform the SAME legally required aspects, wether they make Linux Software or Microsoft Slate or pick up my trash outside and deposit it in a landfill. They all have the same basic structure, they have the same payroll methods (work per hour at given rate, state tax removed, federal taxes, etc. and so on), they have the same land / building permits concepts, the same demands for insurance needs, legal standing as a Corp/LLC/etc. and so on and so forth. The BUSINESS side of it, is always the SAME MODEL, SAME RULES, SAME responsibilites in the end (be it profit to a organization, stock holders, only one business owner, etc.). Now the nuianes (the individual tree brances, and leaves) is where your focusing on and yes are niche to the business in general terms, I am saying a forest is a forest is a forest. Water sun earth needed to make it grow, has four seasons, and so on, your wrapping into a more granual differentiating by the way your representing it.

As for the move to SaaS,, your generalizing 'computing needs' like your customized bookkeeping program into the same thing as the GROUPWARE (the point you keep very much overlooking) which it isn't. When you made your customized bookkeeping program, does it integrate into the Backoffice to generate automatic billing to customers by pulling the data from the SQL Sales server then tying it into the Microsoft Dynamics ERP to show "Real-time financial data"? Does it generate fiscal forecasting models that automatically tie into the Backoffice for all the Projects scheduled and being scheduled funding so that the instant decision on which Projects needs to be saddled and the cost outlay for doing that? Does it generate notification via a Calander add on instant Notice to Outlook via Exchange to the customer's Sales Rep (which is pulled from a seperate SQL server running CRM) to make sure the billing is paid on time? And so on and so forth.

See I am not talking A webpage, for a couple of people in a Mom and Pop store of Mom and Pop and that is about it. I am talking any level from a Dozen employees (SMB) to as much as 10,000 world wide locations is what Microsoft has made each 'tier' of the product lines over the past decades. So there is multiple solutions, which we all may not like, but really there isn't a 'competitor' to these solutions that provides the 'front office' these flexibilities THEY DEMAND.

Again, if they just need to surf websites, read some webbased email, or simple stuff, sure Linux MAY be a solution as much as Google is. But if your talking ANY of the real 'business of business' end I just mentioned (which is from SMB to Large Corp), then your dealing with the Microsoft solution.