News AMD Dimgrey Cavefish Reportedly Points To Navi 23 GPU

Chung Leong

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The XSX has 52 CUs while the PS5 has 36. If the RX 6700 XT is Navy Flounder, how will AMD price it? No one will pay $449 for below console-level graphics. Even at $349 it isn't that good of a bargain.

The Dimgrey Cavefish should do well, assuming it's a low-end 20-CU part. Ray-tracing for less then $200 will generate excitement, especially if it's accompanied by new AI-driven upscaling tech. Will AMD launch it in October, that's the question.
 
If we look back at RDNA 1, AMD started with the Radeon RX 5700 (XT) and eventually went down the pile. Being optimistic, we would love for AMD to reveal Big Navi because the current graphics card market needs some competition in the higher tiers. Nvidia's recent GeForce RTX 3080 has proven to be a tough cookie, and Big Navi will likely be the most worthy competitor.
I'll admit I'd like to see the big boy first. But, I wonder if it would work better for AMD, to take advantage of the holiday shopping season, to first produce the model likely to see the highest volume of sales.

No idea, marketing's not even close to being my thing, but the thought did occur to me.
 
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InvalidError

Titan
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But, I wonder if it would work better for AMD, to take advantage of the holiday shopping season, to first produce the model likely to see the highest volume of sales.
As much as I'd like to see the more budget-oriented stuff this year, I doubt AMD has enough wafer starts to aim for high-volume first on RDNA2 + Zen 3. It'll all be higher margins parts first simply due to supply constraints.

Edit: ... and the PS5 + XBX-X/S.
 
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Sep 23, 2020
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The XSX has 52 CUs while the PS5 has 36. If the RX 6700 XT is Navy Flounder, how will AMD price it? No one will pay $449 for below console-level graphics. Even at $349 it isn't that good of a bargain.

The Dimgrey Cavefish should do well, assuming it's a low-end 20-CU part. Ray-tracing for less then $200 will generate excitement, especially if it's accompanied by new AI-driven upscaling tech. Will AMD launch it in October, that's the question.
What are you talking about? The price vs consoles is irrelevant for most PC owners, I for example have no interest in a console for whatever price it is. Most people that use PC's are multitasking, console you're stuck doing one thing, playing a game. I'm browsing the web, talking to a friend/family, while playing a game or working, while watching a show, across 2-3 monitors.
 
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hotaru.hino

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The XSX has 52 CUs while the PS5 has 36. If the RX 6700 XT is Navy Flounder, how will AMD price it? No one will pay $449 for below console-level graphics. Even at $349 it isn't that good of a bargain.
This point is kind of moot because Sony and Microsoft tend to sell their consoles as loss leaders and make their profits off software sales and subscriptions. AMD and its AIB's have to sell video cards for profit.

I mean, if you'd like AMD to lose money...
 

InvalidError

Titan
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This point is kind of moot because Sony and Microsoft tend to sell their consoles as loss leaders and make their profits off software sales and subscriptions.
Last times I heard, Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were roughly breaking even on their console sales. Though Microsoft is going all-out on games-as-a-service this time around with financing plans that tie the purchases to its Game Pass Ultimate service.
 

Chung Leong

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This point is kind of moot because Sony and Microsoft tend to sell their consoles as loss leaders and make their profits off software sales and subscriptions. AMD and its AIB's have to sell video cards for profit.
According to my observation, PC gamers care a lot about their own bragging right. They're far less concerned about the profitability of equipment manufacturers.
 

hotaru.hino

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Last times I heard, Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were roughly breaking even on their console sales. Though Microsoft is going all-out on games-as-a-service this time around with financing plans that tie the purchases to its Game Pass Ultimate service.
If this was recent, then yes, eventually the hardware manufacturing costs are cheap enough to make a profit. But initially, Microsoft and Sony sold their consoles with no intent on making a profit on them. Nintendo's the only one that manages to break even or sell at a profit from the get go.

EDIT: The rumor mill is that the PS5 and XBSX cost about $460-$520 to make (https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/ps5-xbox-series-5-could-be-500-dollars/). This is just manufacturing though, the rest of the supply chain could eat up more.

According to my observation, PC gamers care a lot about their own bragging right. They're far less concerned about the profitability of equipment manufacturers.
And they'll pay whatever price it takes to get said bragging rights.
 
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spongiemaster

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Last times I heard, Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were roughly breaking even on their console sales. Though Microsoft is going all-out on games-as-a-service this time around with financing plans that tie the purchases to its Game Pass Ultimate service.
Nintendo claims they have always made money on their consoles, never selling them at a loss or just breaking even starting from day 1. MS and Sony usually sell at a loss on day 1, and start making a profit a year or 2 into release when they release the shrunken down refreshes that are cheaper to produce. Sony, famously, lost huge money on each PS3 they initially sold when they decided to put a bluray player in each. The PS3 reportedly accounted for over $3 billion in losses for Sony in its first 2 years.
 

Chung Leong

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As much as I'd like to see the more budget-oriented stuff this year, I doubt AMD has enough wafer starts to aim for high-volume first on RDNA2 + Zen 3. It'll all be higher margins parts first simply due to supply constraints.
The higher margin RDNA2 part might be the low-end part at this point. Outfitting an underwhelming chip with large among of VRAM is a recipe for negative margin.

Bloomberg had a story a few days ago about Sony cutting PS5 production target due to low yield on their SoC. I imagine AMD itself is running into problems making large dies on the same process.
 

Avro Arrow

Distinguished
I guess Chung Leong erased his comment but I must agree with the others that the level of graphics on consoles is immaterial because if you're in the market for a video card, it's because you're NOT in the market for a gaming console.

Consoles are terrible values overall because they're a perfect example of what a PC would look like if Apple had a monopoly. The consoles themselves are sold at a loss and the games are sold at VERY inflated prices because once you've invested in the console, you've just joined their captive market. Consoles might be cheaper by themselves but they're also useless by themselves (unless you salvage their game controllers for your PC).

If you're a serious gamer and you buy a console for, let's say, twenty games (and compared to some of the console libraries that I've see, 20 is small), you can easily hit $2000 or more. Those same 20 games, purchased from sites like Kinguin, CDKeys and GreenManGaming would cost you like $25USD each instead of $80 (which was the usual price for PS4 games).

If you do the math, $80x20=$1600 and $25x20=$500. That's $1100 difference in games ALONE. The PS4 was $400 which also happens to be right in the middle of the XBox Series S at $300 and the Playstation 5 and Xbox Series X at $500 so we'll use $400 as a good average because I believe that the XBox Series S will greatly outsell the other two combined.

So now we have $1500 to build a PC with just to stay even with the console cost with 20 games. What can be done with $1500?

AVRO'S QUICK PC GAMING BUILD TO DECIMATE ALL CONSOLES:

CPU: R5-3600X - $220
RAM: 16GB GeIL EVO POTENZA DDR4-3600 CL16 (2x8GB) - $55
Motherboard: ASUS TUF Gaming X570 Plus (Full ATX with WiFi) - $190
GPU: XFX Radeon RX 5700 XT Triple Dissipation 8GB - $410
SSD: Team Cardea Ceramic M.2 NVMe PCIe 4.0 x4 2TB - $365
PSU: EVGA Supernova 750 GA 75W 80+Gold (10yr warranty) - $140
Case: DIYPC S2-BK-RGB AXT Mid-Tower - $40
Mouse & Keyboard: Logitech MK320 - $29
Gamepad (if desired): Logitech F310 - $26
Case Fans: APEVIA CF12S-BK 120mm ($8 x3) - $24

Total: $1499

Oh yeah, the video card also gives you a free copy of GodFall and (if you're into WoW) a free copy of WoW Shadowlands. So now you have 22 games on the PC instead of 20 on the console.

Am I good or am I good? You can tip me the extra $1 :p:ROFLMAO:
 

hotaru.hino

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Consoles are terrible values overall because they're a perfect example of what a PC would look like if Apple had a monopoly. The consoles themselves are sold at a loss and the games are sold at VERY inflated prices because once you've invested in the console, you've just joined their captive market. Consoles might be cheaper by themselves but they're also useless by themselves (unless you salvage their game controllers for your PC).
Even if I had few games that I was interested in playing on say my PS4, it still acts as a competent entertainment system and it has at least a working internet browser.

Nintendo consoles on the other hand...

If you're a serious gamer and you buy a console for, let's say, twenty games (and compared to some of the console libraries that I've see, 20 is small), you can easily hit $2000 or more. Those same 20 games, purchased from sites like Kinguin, CDKeys and GreenManGaming would cost you like $25USD each instead of $80 (which was the usual price for PS4 games).
Console games also have price drops and sales as well. I've found the cost of ownership argument moot because everyone tries to insert their own wildcards. Either argue everything at release retail price or don't even bother because given enough patience, you can get anything at any price you want.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
According to my observation, PC gamers care a lot about their own bragging right.
Enthusiast PC gamers (the top ~5% of overall PC users) care about bragging rights. Most PC gamers are more casual and at least somewhat cost-conscious.

Me, my newest console is a PS/2 which I bought mainly for Gran Turismo 3 & 4 and FF X & XII. On the PC side, I'm waiting to see if there will be a reasonably priced RTX3050 for me to upgrade to from my GTX1050, can't be bothered with a GTX1650S which is only ~60% faster.

I imagine AMD itself is running into problems making large dies on the same process.
I haven't heard about AMD having troubles with RX5700 yields at 251sqmm, so I wouldn't expect Navi22's 340sqmm to be a whole lot more problematic. While this may be 30% fewer dies per wafer than the 240sqmm Navi23, there is a whole lot more room for AMD's margin on $350-500 Navi22 GPUs than $170-250 Navi23.
 
If that's the case, Navy Flounder must be the Radeon RX 6700 although we can't discard the probability of it being a Radeon RX 6800.
Something tells me they wouldn't just jump from 80 CUs down to 40 CUs, with nothing in-between. There will undoubtedly be imperfect chips with some cores disabled making their way into another card, perhaps with somewhere around 60 CUs.

And of course, no matter what they're called, it's hard to say exactly how they will be priced. Logically though, I would expect the 80 CU card would be priced higher than a 5700XT. But it seems unlikely that a 40 CU card would be priced as much as a 5700XT, unless the architecture were changed in such a way that made RDNA2's CUs significantly faster. After all, prices for the RTX 3070 should start at $500, and it's expected to be around 50% faster than a 5700XT, while the 3060 cards will undoubtedly be a decent amount faster as well.

So, it's possible that a ~60 CU cut-down version of Big Navi could potentially appear somewhere around that $400 price point, while the 40 CU chip could be reserved for the sub-$300 range. The 5600 XT is already a 36 CU card, after all, based on a cut-down version of their 40CU chip. Again though, we don't know exactly how the performance of RDNA2 will compare to RDNA on a per-CU basis, nor do we know how AMD's raytracing implementation will perform, so it's kind of hard to estimate exactly what pricing might be like.
 

watzupken

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I feel there is something amiss between Sienna Cichlid and Navy Flounder, or specifically, between RX 6900 and RX 6800. The difference in the CUs is too great. I would have thought that Sienna Cichlid should power both RX 6900 and 6800, with the latter being a cut down version. Both however are likely targeting 4K kind of resolution. As for Navy Flounder, from the sounds of the specs, its likely a replacement for RX 5700 series that targets 1440p level., so ideally should be the RX 6700 series and perhaps even the 6600 series. This Dimgrey Cavefish is likely a replacement for the 5500XT.
 

Avro Arrow

Distinguished
Console games also have price drops and sales as well. I've found the cost of ownership argument moot because everyone tries to insert their own wildcards. Either argue everything at release retail price or don't even bother because given enough patience, you can get anything at any price you want.
You're technically correct but you're still making a false equivalency because while one does have to wait for Steam sales, they are A LOT more frequent than sales on console games and the price drops are significantly more dramatic. Sales on console games are RARE and are at most 20% off unless the game has failed to sell and is in the bargain bin.

As for "retail prices", since sites like Kinguin, CDKeys and GreenManGaming sell working products to the public, the prices that you pay on these sites ARE retail prices, they're just not the prices that Steam, Uplay or Origin would charge you regularly. Here's a selection of titles that I've purchased from these sites (based on the fact that these are the ones that I can remember):
  • Windows 10 Professional with MS-Office - $40
  • Bioshock Infinite - $14 ($18 with the DLCs)
  • Inustice 2 (Legendary Edition) - $29
  • Star Wars: The Force Unleashed - $27
  • Far Cry 4 - $28
  • Far Cry 5 - $33
  • Far Cry New Dawn - $22
  • The Witcher III - $35
  • Rise of the Tomb Raider - $25
  • Shadow of the Tomb Raider - $30
  • Jedi: Fallen Order - $32
Please note that all of these prices are in Canadian Dollars, not US Dollars.

Now, I didn't have to wait for these prices because they aren't sale prices, they are regular prices and they are constant. If I want a game, I buy the key from one of these sites, load my Steam, Uplay or Origin client and to date, I have never had anything but a perfectly smooth experience. Windows 10, Injustice 2, The Force Unleashed, Far Cry 4, and The Witcher III were all bought at least two years ago without issue. It's actually easier to deal with these sites than it is to deal with GameStop. The only disadvantage that they have compared to Steam is that they don't offer refunds but I don't think that EB Games offers refunds either.

As for being compact and competent, I agree 100% and I would take a console for gaming over a craptop days a week and twice on Sundays. Consoles definitely have their place in the tech cosmos but, to me, if it's for gaming at home, nothing beats a gaming desktop. However, since my PC Full Tower case (when empty) has a shipping weight of 21kg (46lbs), I am not taking it anywhere so definitely consoles have the advantage of being able to be taken over to a friend's place.
 

hotaru.hino

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You're technically correct but you're still making a false equivalency because while one does have to wait for Steam sales, they are A LOT more frequent than sales on console games and the price drops are significantly more dramatic. Sales on console games are RARE and are at most 20% off unless the game has failed to sell and is in the bargain bin.

As for "retail prices", since sites like Kinguin, CDKeys and GreenManGaming sell working products to the public, the prices that you pay on these sites ARE retail prices, they're just not the prices that Steam, Uplay or Origin would charge you regularly. Here's a selection of titles that I've purchased from these sites (based on the fact that these are the ones that I can remember):
  • Windows 10 Professional with MS-Office - $40
  • Bioshock Infinite - $14 ($18 with the DLCs)
  • Inustice 2 (Legendary Edition) - $29
  • Star Wars: The Force Unleashed - $27
  • Far Cry 4 - $28
  • Far Cry 5 - $33
  • Far Cry New Dawn - $22
  • The Witcher III - $35
  • Rise of the Tomb Raider - $25
  • Shadow of the Tomb Raider - $30
  • Jedi: Fallen Order - $32
Please note that all of these prices are in Canadian Dollars, not US Dollars.

Now, I didn't have to wait for these prices because they aren't sale prices, they are regular prices and they are constant. If I want a game, I buy the key from one of these sites, load my Steam, Uplay or Origin client and to date, I have never had anything but a perfectly smooth experience. Windows 10, Injustice 2, The Force Unleashed, Far Cry 4, and The Witcher III were all bought at least two years ago without issue. It's actually easier to deal with these sites than it is to deal with GameStop. The only disadvantage that they have compared to Steam is that they don't offer refunds but I don't think that EB Games offers refunds either.

As for being compact and competent, I agree 100% and I would take a console for gaming over a craptop days a week and twice on Sundays. Consoles definitely have their place in the tech cosmos but, to me, if it's for gaming at home, nothing beats a gaming desktop. However, since my PC Full Tower case (when empty) has a shipping weight of 21kg (46lbs), I am not taking it anywhere so definitely consoles have the advantage of being able to be taken over to a friend's place.
Are they rare because they're really rare, or are they rare because you're not paying attention to them enough? Every week on my news feeds I always see deals on console games from places like Amazon, Walmart, etc.

Also websites like Kinguin, CD Key, and parts of Green Man Gaming are resellers. They're not retailers. They're for people to sell off extra licenses they obtained somehow (ostensibly through bundle deals and they either owned existing products or don't want others). So no, you can't claim that retail price is whatever the going rate is on those websites.
 

Avro Arrow

Distinguished
Are they rare because they're really rare, or are they rare because you're not paying attention to them enough? Every week on my news feeds I always see deals on console games from places like Amazon, Walmart, etc.

Also websites like Kinguin, CD Key, and parts of Green Man Gaming are resellers. They're not retailers. They're for people to sell off extra licenses they obtained somehow (ostensibly through bundle deals and they either owned existing products or don't want others). So no, you can't claim that retail price is whatever the going rate is on those websites.
There is no "going rate" because everyone's price is different. If I can get the game for whatever price, then that is A going rate. Remember that there was a time when newegg wasn't considered to be a real retailer because they didn't have a brick-and-mortar store. We're currently in a state of perpetual change where the line between definitions is no longer black-and-white.

You know, now that I think about it, they do have some console games on these sites as well so that muddies the waters even more. I didn't take note of the pricing and I can't check it right now (work PC blocks most sites) but feel free to check the prices on console games at cdkeys.com. If the prices are comparable to the PC prices, then perhaps the console is the better choice for gaming. I don't care about being right or wrong, I only care about what's true and what isn't.

I'd still take a PC any day but that's because I would have a PC anyway so I may as well have it do everything (especially when it tends to do things better).
 

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