AMD Radeon HD 3800: The Empire Strikes Back

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Phrozt

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After reading this article...

Ouch ATI.


And wow at the fanboys. Why someone would pick this company hyped card (LET'S GIVE IT BIGGER NUMBERS TO HIDE THE FACT WE STILL CAN'T COMPETE!!) over the 8800GT is beyond me.

$40 is nothing when you're considering the fact that the 8800GT will have greater longevity.

ATI: Number scheme implies a whole new generation for same generation hardware.
nVidia: Number scheme implies same generation hardware but is actually a new generation.


I'm sorry, but you'd have to be ATI's lapdog not to see that they're going downhill fast.
 

hergieburbur

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I am by no means a fanboy, but I can't help but comment on some people's close-mindedness.

I would think that the answer is obvious: Because people wanting mid-range performance that don't necessarily care about a few FPS can actually find the 3870 for $220, whereas its nearly impossible to find an 8800GT in-stock for under $280.

And thats not to mention those that have CF rather than SLI boards...

JUST because something is the right solution for you, does NOT make it the right solution for everybody.
 

techguy911

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We are talking amd here getting things on the shelf is what they don't do.

 

spoonboy

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You could really overclock the 3850 though I believe.
 

cruiseoveride

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yup i definitely agree, Phrozt is THE fanboy

Anyways...

Why cant the 3870 be priced at $150, it would totally kill everything there is out there then.

The 3850 is really the best price/perf card since the radeon 9500pro or the Geforce 256.
 

Phrozt

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How am I a fanboy? The numbers speak volumes.

ATI breaks promises w/this release, and doesn't really make any ground in the charts. When the 8800GT was dropped, it was actually made an impact on the charts.

ATI still didn't fix the ROP flaws, didn't bring in new architecture, they just basically shrunk the die size. The 8800GT shrunk the die size and revamped the architecture to work with it better.

If you look at the conclusion of this article: http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/15/amd_radeon_hd_3800/page20.html

ATI basically re-made the same card and priced it where it should have priced it in the first place; as a mid range card. They still have yet to enter the high end range of cards after over a year.



Running some basic calculations w/tom's conclusions:
8800GT $/frame
78 = $3.46/Frame @ 1280*1024
62.9 = $4.29/frame @ 1600*1200
48.9 = $5.52/frame @ 1920*1440
61.8 = $4.37/frame @ 1280*1024 AA4x+Ansio 8x
48 = $5.63/frame @ 1600*1200 AA4x+Ansio 8x
34.3 = $7.87/frame @ 1920*1440 AA4x+Ansio 8x
$270 @ newegg

HD 3870 $/frame
69 = $3.19/frame @ 1280*1024
55.7 = $3.95/frame @ 1600*1200
43.4 = $5.07/frame @ 1920*1440
51.3 = $4.29/frame @ 1280*1024 AA4x+Ansio 8x
40.6 = $5.42/frame 1600*1200 AA4x+Ansio 8x
30.2 = $7.28/frame @ 1920*1440 AA4x+Ansio 8x
$220 @ newegg

Difference 8800GT vs HD 3870
113.0% @ 1280*1024
112.9% @ 1600*1200
112.7% @ 1920*1440
120.5% @ 1280*1024 AA4x+Ansio 8x
118.2% @ 1600*1200 AA4x+Ansio 8x
113.6% @ 1920*1440 AA4x+Ansio 8x

On average, the 8800GT is 15.15% better than the HD 3870.


The dollar per frame argument is pretty invalid, because they are both VERY close to each other... while the GT gives better performance overall. There is no doubt that both are competitively priced... even more so against the current high end cards... but the difference between performance goes to the 8800GT at barely any extra cost "pound for pound"
 

GloriosoSLB

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Phrozt
"How am I a fanboy?"

By being one?
Tell me where didn’t ATI keep it promises?

"ATI still didn't fix the ROP flaws,"
Unreal III is a texture intensive game do you see Ati too far?

"didn't bring in new architecture"
Yes they did Nvidia didn’t. DX10.1 tell me where is nvidia DX10.1?


"they just basically shrunk the die size. "
Its was nvidia that just did the die shrunk and added video decoding.


"The 8800GT shrunk the die size and revamped the architecture to work with it better."

And the work better has nothing to do with the increased clock speed and 1.5GHz vertex clock thanks to the 65nm?

"They still have yet to enter the high end range of cards after over a year."

Why should they do that?
If that’s the case I'm still waiting for S3.

"but the difference between performance goes to the 8800GT at barely any extra cost"

I'm sorry but 50$ is a lot. That’s the price of 2GB DDR2 800 RAM in my country or 250GB HD.
 

cleeve

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That's the point though, Phrozt. Barely any extra cost, but for barely any extra performance.

The 8800 GT is a super card, and I don't think anyone is suggesting the 3870 is better. But I think there's pretty obviously a clear place for them both in the marketplace, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that if Ati can deliver these cards en masse - and Nvidia has trouble getting 8800 GTs to the public - that the 3870 is going to sell really well. And rightfully so, to boot.

Whether or not it breaks any ground, still has ROP flaws, and is a rehash of old architecture is kind of irrelevant to a buyer with $220 in their pocket and wants the best card their money can buy... especially if you can actually find it in stores without having to pay a premium based on low availability.
 

speedbird

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Half Life 2 looks better with Adaptive AA and maybe a handful of other games with ATI, but there's hardly any difference between the picture quality of ATI and Nvidia in most games.
 

Harrisson

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lol Phrozt, your calculation just proved ATi is better price/performance, so you owned yourself ;) There is no question GT is ~15% overal faster than 3870, but is 15-25% more expensive, so ATI gives BETTER price performance.

Now add several other "minor" things, like 3870 is available, and its quieter. You dont care bout the noise? Some do. And gl with finding some GT in stock, they are far and few in between.
 

nurn

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Let's talk simple economic theory... supply and demand. Imagine two months down the road, ATI has introduced 400k to 500k new 38XX units into the marketplace, versus say 50k to 100k 8800 new units. Developers are going to bias their games towards the capabilities and strengths of the dominant unit. A year from now, games that favour the ATI architecture (including DirectX 10.1) will become the norm, the drivers will have matured, and the performance gap will have evened out, or swung the other way.

And to those who believe that 10.1 has nothing substantial to offer... "In the end, DX10.1 is mostly fluff with an 800-pound gorilla hiding among the short cropped grass. MSBRW will enable AA and deferred shading, so you can have speed and beauty at the same time, not a bad trade-off."

 

Anoobis

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Both NV's and ATI's programmable processor architecture took quite a while to develop. Don't expect ATI's ROP issue to just disappear that quickly. Things are going to look very different once ATI addresses the weak ROP issue but they could be too late by then.

Phrozt is partially right. These cards aren't "new arch" they're just 55nm refreshes of the R600. It still doesn't mean they're junk. They have filled a gap that's been with the GPU market since the introduction of the 8800s. There hasn't been a $150-200 DX10 part worth a squirt until now. The HD 3850 is the "7600GT" we've been waiting for. There is now finally decent DX10 offerings available spanning from the HD 3850 all the way to the 8800 Ultra. Who gives a crap who makes it?
 

GloriosoSLB

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Nurm I don’t think developers care much.

You see older cards from the same generation
Ati X1950Pro VS 7900GS
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6177688/p-6.html

The Ati wins by 40% easily in Bioshock.
Its 53fps for Ati 38 fps for Nvidia.

Too bad Nvidia doesn’t have a nice driver team like Ati.
Monthly drivers updates maybe are overkill but random drivers releases with strange jumps from 97.xx to 16x.xx are not good at all.
 

daye159

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Im getting a great card at a great price an HD3850 next month cuz i dont like that nvidia crap


Get The Best ATI AMD Dont settle for crappy nvidia junk
 

kpo6969

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"The HD 3850 is the "7600GT" we've been waiting for."
How true it appears to be.
 

lakedude

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I hereby nominate daye159 as the biggest fanboy of the thread. Any seconds?

PS I'd like to reaffirm my non-fanboy status with some clarification about my opinion of the new ATI cards. They are both great for the money and spank the dog-snot out of my recently purchased 8800GTS for value. If you need a card in the "new midrange" one of the ATI 3xxx cards should do nicely.

That said the 3xxx cards are still a disappointment (to me, if no one else) because my normal price range for a video card is around $300. ATI still brings nothing to compete in the ~$300 price range. Before the 8800GT, the 8800GTS ruled this price range and now the 8800GT is king of the upper middle end. So congrats to ATI for giving a huge boost to the previously empty middle range, but how about the ~$300 range?? Where is my card?


 

inthere

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Exactly. Ati has seriously dropped the ball and Nvidia is bending us over. Ati needed to take the performance crown on the high end. Screw all this price/performance crap. There's now no card out that can run Crysis at max settings-not at a res over 1600x1200, because Ati hasn't pushed Nvidia at the high end all year.

The 8800 came out last year guys, we're supposed to all be getting it for half price now because NVidia's new 9800 card came out for Christmas.
 

bildo123

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You forgot one MAJOR factor. That being Availability. I ordered my MSI NX8800GT OC on 10/29 the day of release. And here I am going into my 4th week of waiting. I never waited more than a week for any part ever. If I had it different I would go 3870, But I really only payed $190 for my 8800GT so I cant really complain. ($50 credit). But still waiting for month+ is going to be a huge buzzkill. I think when it arrives I'll put it in a box with an old rage 128 agp card for the day. Teach it real good.
 

tkpb938

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Availability isn't really a factor if you ask me. The card isn't to hard to find if you really want it. You just have to search around. Or you could just pay like $10 more and buy it on ebay.
 

tenaciousleydead

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ya but then you have to wait, and don't even know if it works properly. and i highly doubt the premium your gonna pay is going to be only 10$...i am also not enthused about ATI/AMD not getting a high end card out for that price segment. Usually the mid range cards are derivatives off the high end models architecture, but not in this case. I feel as this is more of a temporary patch to buy ATI some time, no doubt a very competitive and well needed band aid upon this price segment.
 

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