AMD Ryzen 5 2400G Delidded: Solder vs. Thermal Paste vs. Liquid Metal

[FormatC]

Now that we know AMD is using thermal paste instead of solder between its Raven Ridge-based dies and heat spreaders, it's time to determine whether we have a reason to complain.

AMD Ryzen 5 2400G Delidded: Solder vs. Thermal Paste vs. Liquid Metal : Read more

 

[AgentLozen]

You guys ran a delidding article (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/kaby-lake-de-lidding-overclocking-test,4970.html) similar to this a while ago for Intel chips. It's focus was measuring the difference between a stock i7 7700k and a delidded one. The article showed how much further the 7700k could overclock when you replaced Intel's TIM. I liked it a lot.
I was hoping this article would similarly show how much further the 2400G would overclock after replacing the TIM. The conclusions that this article reached were interesting. It shows that the TIM AMD uses is pretty good but it was a little anemic otherwise.

edit: changed some wording

 

[damric]

AMD has always used paste on APUs. Nothing has "shifted". Even the FM1/2/+ were pasted.

 

[FormatC]

...

Did you really read the launch review and this one? The barrier for a higher overclock is NOT the temperature. This is an AMD APU and we overclocked it also on the launch review to the stable maximum. And the conclusion said: you get it cooler, but not faster. That's a fact. Intel CPUs are temperature limited, this one not.

 

[BulkZerker]

@damric

AMD used solder for their latest midrange / HEDT chips and that is a very well known fact.

 

[Nintendork]

What I want to know is what's the cost of indium solder vs thermal paste per cpu/apu.

 

[Nintendork]

We know the answer more or less.

A $7 TIM will probably last you for 10 builds. In a worst case scenario TIM should cost $1 per unit and solder.. $1.5?

Is it really justifiable? I don't think anyone will cry about paying $1-2 more.

 

[Nintendork]

@FORMATC
The barrier for all current Ryzen is not the cpu or the arch, por temps or power consumption IS THE NODE PROCESS.

It's 14 LOW POWER PERFORMANCE (LPP) which is made to have a high efficiency at low clocks sacrificing a higher wall for base/OC chips, the 12nm LEADING PERFORMANCE (LP) lets you have higher frequencies without sacrificing efficiency.

All Ryzen 2000 cpu's (Non APU) will have around 300Mhz more with the same power consumption) and should easily allow for 4.5Ghz OC~.

 

[Gillerer]

@damric

AMD used solder for their latest midrange / HEDT chips and that is a very well known fact.

Damric was talking about APUs - meaning earlier AMD CPUs with integrated graphics - and was comparing these new offerings to them. Ryzen and Ryzen Threadripper definitely don't belong in that product category.

 

[AgentLozen]

Did you really read the launch review and this one? The barrier for a higher overclock is NOT the temperature. This is an AMD APU and we overclocked it also on the launch review to the stable maximum. And the conclusion said: you get it cooler, but not faster. That's a fact. Intel CPUs are temperature limited, this one not.

Thanks for the clarification. I read the review for the Ryzen 2400G, but I guess I missed that detail.

Edit:
I wanted to read more about the overclocking outcomes and limits in the 2400G launch article. What I found instead were optimistic projections about the overclocking capability of that chip. There are lines that read, "Overclocking with AMD's Ryzen Master utility is simple. The execution cores responded readily to our efforts, and the Ryzen 5 2400G floated up to 4 GHz with a 1.4V vCore setting. " and "Specifically, our Ryzen 5 2400G sample overclocked easily.". I guess that's why I was expecting this article to take a different direction.

When I re-read the conclusion of this article I found that "Even during our stress test, Ryzen 5 2400G doesn't achieve an average gain of more than 75 MHz with liquid metal. ". It's disappointing that the 2400G can't go much further than 4.0GHz.

 

[FormatC]

@Nintendork:
Solder costs around 5 USD per CPU for the whole process, TIM is significant cheaper, this are only a few Cents. Don't compare the small end-user units and their pharmacy prices with industrial compound, delivered in big cans

I know, that the node process is the reason for this freq wall and that we have no reason to discuss this thing in this review. The sense behind this testing was the question, what it can change (or not). All this crying about TIM and solder... It's simply boring. This is not a high-end CPU with an ultra-high density and a big power draw, it's an APU with a big die and a low power draw. We have no reason to beat AMD for this decision. And I bet: the real target group for this product doesn't even know the difference between TIM and solder.

 

[Combat_Medic]

"Our findings may give you reason to complain about AMD's cost-cutting or praise the company for its execution. ...when it comes to enthusiast mind share, shifting over to thermal paste is bound to raise eyebrows."

"Enthusiasts" are purchasing sub $200 720p med / 1080p low setting iGPU builds now? Give me a break.

How about praising AMD for using a quality tim unlike their competition?

 

[FormatC]

How about praising AMD for using a quality tim unlike their competition?

Please read the review again. I wrote nothing else.

The translation is a bit shorter than my original, but the sense is understandable enough.

 

[Giroro]

I wonder what all those surface mount parts are for (signal integrity?) and if anything would happen if you populate the missing contacts.

I would think that leaving some unpopulated is a result of even the higher end 2400G not being a fully functional die, but wouldn't a hypothetical 2600G use the same pin-outs if those Surface Mount parts were just filter caps, or whatever?

 

[Giroro]

In terms of the thermal paste used.. .It appears what AMD is using is good when it's brand new, but I wonder how it lasts over time.

Intel's TIM isn't just mediocre up front, it breaks down within a couple years and reduces your CPU performance (probably) as a part of their planned obsolescence scheme. Up until the recent core increase there has been very few reasons for anybody to upgrade their processors, other than the fact Intel's steady stream of new sockets means that a platform update forces them everybody into it. Even the increased core count comes with problems since Intel's process shrink is late, the thermals are so bad on Core-i9 that they are essentially unusable put of the box without new TIM and water cooling.

But I digress. I just hope AMD's thermal paste lasts a long time.
Although it's a much smaller worry since AMD users will be able to easily drop-in an $100 next-gen APU instead of wasting $1000 to essentially rebuild the entire computer when 4 cents worth of cheap TIM dried up inside of a $350 i7.

 

[AgentLozen]

Intel's TIM isn't just mediocre up front, it breaks down within a couple years and reduces your CPU performance (probably) as a part of their planned obsolescence scheme.

That's really interesting. Do you have a source that digs deeper into this? I have an Ivy Bridge 3570K at home that I bought in 2012. Are you saying that the TIM inside of it has dried up? I've never examined my CPU temps over a long enough time to tell if this is happening.

Edit: Question mark.

 

[wizardg]

The most interesting thing I learned from this article is the difference in the way AMD and Intel mount their heat spreaders. AMD is mounting the spreader with a small gap between the edge of the spreader and the substrate ensuring the spreader sits flush with the surface of the die. Team blue has been mounting their spreaders flush with the substrate and filling the gap between the spreader and the die with TIM.

This goes a long way in explaining just why de-lidding Intel's proc's benefit so much from de-lidding.

 

[phobicsq]

I really don't see the point in doing all of this for a mid level chip.....

 

[mariano guntin]

Agree in the conclusions. Really good tests and conclusions.

 

[IInuyasha74]

I wish AMD and Intel would learn that basically everyone would rather pay an extra $1 or two and have the IHS soldered than save this insignificant amount.

 

[FormatC]

Just saw, that one of the biggest online shops in Germany sold the Ryzen 3 2200G for very interesting 79 Euro (VAT incl.).
Delidded and in a a small, passive cooled case, it is the perfect addition for your living room. Too bad, that the heatpipes of my Streacom case not fits to the socket and the mounting system is not compatible.

But I will build the 1st computer for my 6-year old son with an APU in a small ITX case with Vega mounting to put it behind the screen. It is a really good offer. Bought one, just for fun.

 

[mitch074]

I wish AMD and Intel would learn that basically everyone would rather pay an extra $1 or two and have the IHS soldered than save this insignificant amount.

Even if the extra cost per unit is small, don't forget that soldering the IHS is a delicate operation that can only be attempted once - a failed solder application means a dead CPU, make that one in 100, that is avoided altogether with thermal paste.

On a CPU that is expected to be sold in the hundreds of thousand units in supermarket cheapo setups, company desktop boxes or HTPCs, that represents a huge amount.

Another interesting setup: a very small Steam Machine...

 

[redgarl]

AMD knows the CPU cannot break that 4 GHz wall anyway with acceptable temperature with thermal paste, why would they waste money on something with no real benefit for anyone? It is actually a good decision, and like mentioned, this CPU is not aimed at the Enthusiast at all.

 

[pensive69]

We need to design better coolers irregardless of what pastes or adhesives and sealants the mfg's choose to send us.
maybe my next build is in a small home freezer?

 

[IInuyasha74]

I wish AMD and Intel would learn that basically everyone would rather pay an extra $1 or two and have the IHS soldered than save this insignificant amount.

Even if the extra cost per unit is small, don't forget that soldering the IHS is a delicate operation that can only be attempted once - a failed solder application means a dead CPU, make that one in 100, that is avoided altogether with thermal paste.

On a CPU that is expected to be sold in the hundreds of thousand units in supermarket cheapo setups, company desktop boxes or HTPCs, that represents a huge amount.

Another interesting setup: a very small Steam Machine...

I've not seen any numbers on how many CPUs are ruined by the soldering processes. I'm sure it probably does happen, but this would be a machine operated process on a large scale, and something that both companies have had experience doing for over a decade. Therefore, I highly doubt the ROF due to soldering the IHS is anywhere close to 1/100. As these companies ship millions of processors monthly, if the ROF was this high, neither company would have ever continued the process. The ROF due to soldering is probably closer to 1/1,000,000, not 1/100. And a minor increase in cost of around $1/$2 on the millions that aren't defective would probably more than make up for the loss.