AMD Zen questions

[FuturisticTeletubbies]

So I'm buying a £650 pc around christmas and I'm planning on getting the new AMD Zen but I don't know if there is one for under £200 that would beat the i5 6500, anyone got an idea for a Zen under £200 that would beat the i5 6500, and when it comes out. Thanks

 

[InvalidError]

We won't know until it comes out and we don't know for certain if it will be available this year yet. As is often the case, we may get an announcement in late 2016 but limited availability until a few months into 2017.

 

[TechyInAZ]

Unfortunately, there is nothing on Zen besides the APUs at the moment.

 

[elbert]

The leaks show only 4 and 8 cores. I dont expect the 8 core to be less than $500. The quad may outperform the i5 6500 as it has the advantage of 8 threads plus overclocking. Its to early to tell for sure tho but i'm pretty sure the quad will be under 200 pounds give thats about $300. All leaks point to big OEM system builder have limited supplys this year with AMD possible launching CES 2017 January.

 

[gillhooley]

I Highly doubt the Zen will be worth waiting for. It will most likely only best the i5 in very specific scenarios. The AMD track record lately gives me no reason to think it will be the second coming of the Athlon 64. It may be a large step in the right direction, but an i5 will still be your best bet. There is very little need for more than 4 cores, unless you have a specific use case.

 

[os2wiz]

I Highly doubt the Zen will be worth waiting for. It will most likely only best the i5 in very specific scenarios. The AMD track record lately gives me no reason to think it will be the second coming of the Athlon 64. It may be a large step in the right direction, but an i5 will still be your best bet. There is very little need for more than 4 cores, unless you have a specific use case.

.
Not true. it will be between an I5 and an I7 for single threaded apps and better than I7 6700 for multithreaded apps.

 

[InvalidError]

Not true. it will be between an I5 and an I7 for single threaded apps and better than I7 6700 for multithreaded apps.

That isn't possible since the i5 and i7 are exactly the same core apart from 2MB of cache and HT being disabled at a given clock frequency. There is also that whole can of worms about AMD possibly having picked the best possible case to showcase that 40% IPC improvement over Steamroller, which means there is a real possibility that Zen does not perform quite as good in other benchmarks.

That AMD demonstrated that Zen is able to beat a similarly clocked Intel chip by a slim margin in one specific benchmark is encouraging but that's only a tiny piece of the whole story.

 

[Math Geek]

as has already been stated, no one knows what the cpu's can do, when they will come out nor how much they will cost.

the 2 of you claiming such matter-of-fact like is wrong in all ways. no need to start a flame war over such a simple question to answer

 

[os2wiz]

Lots of conjecture in your reasoning. I will wait for the release of the chip when thorough testing is done. I do not believe that after the Bulldozer fiasco that they would inflate the IPC improvement. The cache on Zen has been completely revised as well as a host of other significant improvements. The only possible concern is the process of GloF may limit clock speeds more than most of us would like. We will have to see.

Not true. it will be between an I5 and an I7 for single threaded apps and better than I7 6700 for multithreaded apps.

That isn't possible since the i5 and i7 are exactly the same core apart from 2MB of cache and HT being disabled at a given clock frequency. There is also that whole can of worms about AMD possibly having picked the best possible case to showcase that 40% IPC improvement over Steamroller, which means there is a real possibility that Zen does not perform quite as good in other benchmarks.

That AMD demonstrated that Zen is able to beat a similarly clocked Intel chip by a slim margin in one specific benchmark is encouraging but that's only a tiny piece of the whole story.

 

[os2wiz]

You mistake the IPC improvement as being 40% over steamroller. It is 40% over Excavator which was about 7% faster than Steamroller.

 

[FuturisticTeletubbies]

So basically I should just stick with the i5s?

 

[InvalidError]

If you really want to go with Zen, then wait, wait again, wait some more and see.

If you'd prefer to have your PC sooner than later on the presumption that Zen won't be consistently faster and may not necessarily undercut Intel by much, then go with an i5 and quit losing sleep over it.

 

[os2wiz]

We won't know until it comes out and we don't know for certain if it will be available this year yet. As is often the case, we may get an announcement in late 2016 but limited availability until a few months into 2017.

So basically I should just stick with the i5s?

A few months would be March. or April. General availability will be in late January or early February. No need to exaggerate.

 

[os2wiz]

Not true. it will be between an I5 and an I7 for single threaded apps and better than I7 6700 for multithreaded apps.

That isn't possible since the i5 and i7 are exactly the same core apart from 2MB of cache and HT being disabled at a given clock frequency. There is also that whole can of worms about AMD possibly having picked the best possible case to showcase that 40% IPC improvement over Steamroller, which means there is a real possibility that Zen does not perform quite as good in other benchmarks.

That AMD demonstrated that Zen is able to beat a similarly clocked Intel chip by a slim margin in one specific benchmark is encouraging but that's only a tiny piece of the whole story.

Even in single threaded apps, the I7 series has always had some performance edge over I3 chips. You 3 guys are so sure of yourselves and that kind of hubris usually shoots yourself in the foot.. I prefer to see when the data comes out.

 

[InvalidError]

Even in single threaded apps, the I7 series has always had some performance edge over I3 chips.

And that "some performance edge" is mostly the ~300MHz difference between i3 and i7 single-threaded boost frequency. Clock-for-clock, they are practically identical.

 

[os2wiz]

Even in single threaded apps, the I7 series has always had some performance edge over I3 chips.

And that "some performance edge" is mostly the ~300MHz difference between i3 and i7 single-threaded boost frequency. Clock-for-clock, they are practically identical.

In productivity software like databases good software is multithreaded. Even some games are multithreaded. ZEN may not close the gap with the I7 but it certainly will significantly narrow the gap wit IPC. If one can buy the 8 core Zen for $260 or less, it certainy will give the user greater value than an I5 and possibly I7 4 core chips for the vast majority of practical applications and many games.

 

[Dean Wilkinson]

I remember article saying Zen will be under 200$, with IPC fractionally better than haswell, but no confirmed clock speed.

It will also be 8 core 16 thread

 

[os2wiz]

I remember article saying Zen will be under 200$, with IPC fractionally better than haswell, but no confirmed clock speed.

It will also be 8 core 16 thread

That is much of what I have read except from on this web site. I think the experts here are smart and knowledgeable but interpolating their knowledge far beyond what the known facts justify. So they are more negative about Zen's performance. I would take their projections with a grain of salt and wait another 6 or 7 weeks when more significant information about zen's clock speed and performance are likely to leak out. Then an intelligent decision can be made whether to roll with it.

 

[Supernova1138]

I remember article saying Zen will be under 200$, with IPC fractionally better than haswell, but no confirmed clock speed.

It will also be 8 core 16 thread

If Zen offers Haswell level IPC, there is no way the 8 core chip would sell for only $200, you'd be looking at $500 absolute minimum as Intel gets away with charging that much for a 6 core 12 thread processor. AMD is desperate for cash and won't be massively undercutting Intel unless the performance of their CPUs is far enough behind that they are forced to. Best case scenario, you might see the 4 core 8 thread chip sell for around $275 if it is a bit behind the i7 6700k.

 

[os2wiz]

I remember article saying Zen will be under 200$, with IPC fractionally better than haswell, but no confirmed clock speed.

It will also be 8 core 16 thread

If Zen offers Haswell level IPC, there is no way the 8 core chip would sell for only $200, you'd be looking at $500 absolute minimum as Intel gets away with charging that much for a 6 core 12 thread processor. AMD is desperate for cash and won't be massively undercutting Intel unless the performance of their CPUs is far enough behind that they are forced to. Best case scenario, you might see the 4 core 8 thread chip sell for around $275 if it is a bit behind the i7 6700k.

I disagree. If Zen 8 core is at a Haswell even it will sell for no more than $300 to $330, at a 4 core I7 6700 price. If it is more like a I 7 4770 it will sell a little below 300. There has to be value in the equation. Remember Intel sells it 6 core I 6800 for $399. AMD has to come in at a lower price than that cpu in the best of circumstances.

 

[InvalidError]

AMD is desperate for cash and won't be massively undercutting Intel unless the performance of their CPUs is far enough behind that they are forced to. Best case scenario, you might see the 4 core 8 thread chip sell for around $275 if it is a bit behind the i7 6700k.

If AMD sells their 4C8T Haswell-class chips for nearly the same price as an i7, most people will simply pick the i7. If AMD's on-going struggle with power efficiency on the GPU side carries over to Zen, then Skylake and Kaby Lake will be considerably ahead on performance per watt, another reason to continue picking Intel if AMD tries to price match.

My prediction is that AMD will align its prices roughly one rung below Intel, meaning 4C8T around $225 as you can get a 4C8T Xeon for ~$250. AMD may be desperate for income, but it won't be getting much of that income without providing clearly superior bang per buck and clawing back some market share. For AMD to make a significant comeback, it cannot afford to get too greedy and alienate most of its potential market in the process. You don't get away from the "budget option" stigma overnight.

 

[Supernova1138]

AMD is desperate for cash and won't be massively undercutting Intel unless the performance of their CPUs is far enough behind that they are forced to. Best case scenario, you might see the 4 core 8 thread chip sell for around $275 if it is a bit behind the i7 6700k.

If AMD sells their 4C8T Haswell-class chips for nearly the same price as an i7, most people will simply pick the i7. If AMD's on-going struggle with power efficiency on the GPU side carries over to Zen, then Skylake and Kaby Lake will be considerably ahead on performance per watt, another reason to continue picking Intel if AMD tries to price match.

My prediction is that AMD will align its prices roughly one rung below Intel, meaning 4C8T around $225 as you can get a 4C8T Xeon for ~$250. AMD may be desperate for income, but it won't be getting much of that income without providing clearly superior bang per buck and clawing back some market share. For AMD to make a significant comeback, it cannot afford to get too greedy and alienate most of its potential market in the process. You don't get away from the "budget option" stigma overnight.

This is the same company that initially sold the FX 9590 for like $700 until they had to massively claw the price back because nobody sane would pay it. The initial price for Zen is going to be quite high unless Zen is another Bulldozer style faceplant and AMD is forced to settle for being the poor man's alternative to Intel until they go bankrupt in 2019 when a lot of their large debts are due. I could see AMD slashing the prices if Zen simply doesn't sell at the initial high price, but for the early adopters expect a hefty premium.

 

[InvalidError]

This is the same company that initially sold the FX 9590 for like $700 until they had to massively claw the price back because nobody sane would pay it. The initial price for Zen is going to be quite high

The FX9590 was a bull-headed attempt at providing the "performance at any cost, TDP be damned" crowd that was relatively vocal at the time something to chew on. The prices for Zen will be higher than they are for current generation chips but if AMD drastically overshoots its core audience's willingness to pay, interest in Zen that has been slowly rising will spontaneously vanish and AMD will be screwed. With current-gen chips, AMD's retail end-users are only willing to pay $125-150 for what AMD is able to deliver and AMD has to 'ease' them into paying $200+.

 

[gamerk316]

I Highly doubt the Zen will be worth waiting for. It will most likely only best the i5 in very specific scenarios. The AMD track record lately gives me no reason to think it will be the second coming of the Athlon 64. It may be a large step in the right direction, but an i5 will still be your best bet. There is very little need for more than 4 cores, unless you have a specific use case.

.

Not true. it will be between an I5 and an I7 for single threaded apps and better than I7 6700 for multithreaded apps.

Not true. Early leaked benches showed, clock for clock, Zen still lags behind Sandy Bridge in terms of single core performance.

Based on everything I've seen so far, I'm expecting Zen falls somewhere between Haswell i5 and Haswell i7 performance, at best.