Ancestral Relic value

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs by 10
once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this can be
found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the last
couple of days and couldn't find it.

[I did find a *10 cost in the tables for magic armour and weapons, where +5
was 25,000 and +6 was 360,000 but that looks like something different.]

I'm especially interested because the Ancestral Relic feat lets a level 18-20
character upgrade their relic to a total over 200,000 -- something like
338,000 at level 20. This seems to be out of sync with the 200k limit.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs by 10
> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this can be

That has got to be incorrect. I remember having seen
official Staves, in 3.5, which had a cost of between 200'000
and 300'000 gold.

> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the last
> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>
> [I did find a *10 cost in the tables for magic armour and weapons, where +5
> was 25,000 and +6 was 360,000 but that looks like something different.]

Probably some kind of Epic rule. non-Epic items can't give a
bonus (e.g. to AC or hit/damage) higher than +5, so if you
wish to go above +5 (presumably +6 for ability score
boosting), you must use some other cost formula, which is
apparently a lot harsher.

> I'm especially interested because the Ancestral Relic feat lets a level 18-20
> character upgrade their relic to a total over 200,000 -- something like
> 338,000 at level 20. This seems to be out of sync with the 200k limit.

My best guess is that any such 200k limit rule will be in
the Epic supplement, but I suggest you ignore i, and let the
Ancestral Relic feat just work.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <38ie5uF5lmt2bU1@individual.net>,
Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>My best guess is that any such 200k limit rule will be in
>the Epic supplement, but I suggest you ignore i, and let the
>Ancestral Relic feat just work.

Thanks. I'll take a look later today.

It turns out to be impossible (from just the DMG) to construct a weapon worth
more than 200,000, because that is the cost for +10 in enhancements (at most
+5 atk bonus, the rest from special properties), and all the enhancements
listed are +bonus instead of +gp. Armour could go higher, since there are
plenty of +gp enhancements.

I deduce that the Ancestral Relic has to start off ordinary, since its value
has to be at most 1k+change at first level (when the feat has to be taken).
I had hoped to have it made of adamantine, but that adds a big up-front cost
that exceeds the AR limits.

I don't suppose there's a "transmute steel to adamantine" spell around
somewhere? It would presumably have to have a big GP cost, comparable to the
value of the adamantine -- maybe a raw lump of adamantine of the right value
as material component?

This is for yet another Paladin -- Paladin/Anointed Knight.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) wrote in
news:d01vve$439$1@knot.queensu.ca:

> In article <38ie5uF5lmt2bU1@individual.net>,
> Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>My best guess is that any such 200k limit rule will be in
>>the Epic supplement, but I suggest you ignore i, and let the
>>Ancestral Relic feat just work.
>
> Thanks. I'll take a look later today.
>
> It turns out to be impossible (from just the DMG) to construct a
> weapon worth more than 200,000, because that is the cost for +10 in
> enhancements (at most +5 atk bonus, the rest from special properties),
> and all the enhancements listed are +bonus instead of +gp. Armour
> could go higher, since there are plenty of +gp enhancements.
>
> I deduce that the Ancestral Relic has to start off ordinary, since its
> value has to be at most 1k+change at first level (when the feat has to
> be taken). I had hoped to have it made of adamantine, but that adds a
> big up-front cost that exceeds the AR limits.

AR cannot be taken until 3rd level, and I am not sure I would be concerned
about the base material factoring into the cost. Read below about
metalline and the 3.5 sure striking properties.

> I don't suppose there's a "transmute steel to adamantine" spell around
> somewhere? It would presumably have to have a big GP cost, comparable
> to the value of the adamantine -- maybe a raw lump of adamantine of
> the right value as material component?

In the Underdark book, there is a +2 property called metalline, which
allows you to as a standard action change the metal weapon into another
type of metal. For example, you could change a stell weapon into cold iron
or adamantine or silver, etc.

The 3.5 version of sure striking (IIRC it is in Player's guide to Faerun),
which allows you to overcome lawful, good, choatic and evil damage
reductions. Using both a metalline and sure striking would give you a more
than decent melee weapon.
 
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"freakybaby" <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote in message
news:Xns960C756C65538HereIAmNoWherecom@216.196.97.142...
> dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) wrote in
> news:d01vve$439$1@knot.queensu.ca:
>
>> In article <38ie5uF5lmt2bU1@individual.net>,
>> Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>>My best guess is that any such 200k limit rule will be in
>>>the Epic supplement, but I suggest you ignore i, and let the
>>>Ancestral Relic feat just work.
>>
>> Thanks. I'll take a look later today.
>>
>> It turns out to be impossible (from just the DMG) to construct a
>> weapon worth more than 200,000, because that is the cost for +10 in
>> enhancements (at most +5 atk bonus, the rest from special properties),
>> and all the enhancements listed are +bonus instead of +gp. Armour
>> could go higher, since there are plenty of +gp enhancements.
>>
>> I deduce that the Ancestral Relic has to start off ordinary, since its
>> value has to be at most 1k+change at first level (when the feat has to
>> be taken). I had hoped to have it made of adamantine, but that adds a
>> big up-front cost that exceeds the AR limits.
>
> AR cannot be taken until 3rd level, and I am not sure I would be concerned
> about the base material factoring into the cost. Read below about
> metalline and the 3.5 sure striking properties.
>
>> I don't suppose there's a "transmute steel to adamantine" spell around
>> somewhere? It would presumably have to have a big GP cost, comparable
>> to the value of the adamantine -- maybe a raw lump of adamantine of
>> the right value as material component?
>
> In the Underdark book, there is a +2 property called metalline, which
> allows you to as a standard action change the metal weapon into another
> type of metal. For example, you could change a stell weapon into cold
> iron
> or adamantine or silver, etc.
>
> The 3.5 version of sure striking (IIRC it is in Player's guide to Faerun),
> which allows you to overcome lawful, good, choatic and evil damage
> reductions. Using both a metalline and sure striking would give you a
> more
> than decent melee weapon.

Decent?!? It would give you the whole golf bag in one item! Indeed, an
ancestral weapon should have both these enchantments, so it can be more of a
"one-size-fits-all" weapon. Also, I believe there is an enchantment that
can change the type of weapon (to further penetrate DR X/Bludgeoning, etc.),
if that is your thing.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:vbWdnbbbRb4xA7nfRVn-pg@comcast.com:


>> In the Underdark book, there is a +2 property called metalline, which
>> allows you to as a standard action change the metal weapon into
>> another type of metal. For example, you could change a stell weapon
>> into cold iron
>> or adamantine or silver, etc.
>>
>> The 3.5 version of sure striking (IIRC it is in Player's guide to
>> Faerun), which allows you to overcome lawful, good, choatic and evil
>> damage reductions. Using both a metalline and sure striking would
>> give you a more
>> than decent melee weapon.
>
> Decent?!? It would give you the whole golf bag in one item! Indeed,
> an ancestral weapon should have both these enchantments, so it can be
> more of a "one-size-fits-all" weapon.

It does sound so temping, though where is the fun a challanging combat
encounter with such a weapon? Then again such a weapon is nice thing for
the dm to steal on the character and make them work to get it back.

> Also, I believe there is an
> enchantment that can change the type of weapon (to further penetrate
> DR X/Bludgeoning, etc.), if that is your thing.

Yes it is also in the Underdark book, it gives an example of a longsword
being transformed into a longbow. There even is a sizing enchantment in
some WotC book so you could make any weapon you could possibly think up as
a character.

Interesting as they are, I think unbalancing once you have all those
enchantments into one weapon. Myself I usually like to equipment my
characters with, one slashing, one bludgeoning, one preicing and sometimes
a reach weapon. Though making them all magical is costly.
 
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In article <Xns960C86DD1C4C2HereIAmNoWherecom@216.196.97.142>,
freakybaby <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote:
>Interesting as they are, I think unbalancing once you have all those
>enchantments into one weapon. Myself I usually like to equipment my
>characters with, one slashing, one bludgeoning, one preicing and sometimes
>a reach weapon. Though making them all magical is costly.

I feel somewhat goaded into trying, though, since Ancestral Relic is a feat
that only applies to one weapon.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Xns960C756C65538HereIAmNoWherecom@216.196.97.142>,
freakybaby <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote:
>AR cannot be taken until 3rd level, and I am not sure I would be concerned
>about the base material factoring into the cost.

Oops; don't know how I got the idea it was "must take at first level". But it
was still true that, *if* a DM decides to interpret the value limit strictly,
you'd have to wait until level 5 or so to take AR with an adamantine relic.

>In the Underdark book, there is a +2 property called metalline, which
>allows you to as a standard action change the metal weapon into another
>type of metal. For example, you could change a stell weapon into cold iron
>or adamantine or silver, etc.

Looks quite tempting. Do you recommend the Underdark book for other stuff, or
was it disappointing?

>The 3.5 version of sure striking (IIRC it is in Player's guide to Faerun),
>which allows you to overcome lawful, good, choatic and evil damage
>reductions.

Hmm. Not sure the gods of Paladins would appreciate a potentially anti-lawful
or anti-good weapon. In any case, do you recall what the +bonus factor was?
I don't own any Faerun books.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) wrote in
news:d02ns7$rfp$1@knot.queensu.ca:

> In article <Xns960C756C65538HereIAmNoWherecom@216.196.97.142>,
> freakybaby <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote:
>>AR cannot be taken until 3rd level, and I am not sure I would be
>>concerned about the base material factoring into the cost.
>
> Oops; don't know how I got the idea it was "must take at first level".
> But it was still true that, *if* a DM decides to interpret the value
> limit strictly, you'd have to wait until level 5 or so to take AR with
> an adamantine relic.
>
>>In the Underdark book, there is a +2 property called metalline, which
>>allows you to as a standard action change the metal weapon into
>>another type of metal. For example, you could change a stell weapon
>>into cold iron or adamantine or silver, etc.
>
> Looks quite tempting. Do you recommend the Underdark book for other
> stuff, or was it disappointing?

I could not recommend it or claim that it was disappointing, I only read
the feats, prestige classes, spells, magic items parts of it in my local
gaming store.

>>The 3.5 version of sure striking (IIRC it is in Player's guide to
>>Faerun), which allows you to overcome lawful, good, choatic and evil
>>damage reductions.
>
> Hmm. Not sure the gods of Paladins would appreciate a potentially
> anti-lawful or anti-good weapon. In any case, do you recall what the
> +bonus factor was? I don't own any Faerun books.

Depends on what you are fighting now does it not, for example, lets look
at the titan who has Damage reduction 15/lawful and has the following
alignment entry; Alignment: Always chaotic (any).

That means out there, there is a Chaotic Evil Titan.

As for the anti-good, well that I cannot see a God dis-approving of that,
after all the weapon itself is tool used by the God's weapon the paladin
or cleric.
 
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"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d02ns7$rfp$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> In article <Xns960C756C65538HereIAmNoWherecom@216.196.97.142>,
> freakybaby <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote:
>>AR cannot be taken until 3rd level, and I am not sure I would be concerned
>>about the base material factoring into the cost.
>
> Oops; don't know how I got the idea it was "must take at first level".
> But it
> was still true that, *if* a DM decides to interpret the value limit
> strictly,
> you'd have to wait until level 5 or so to take AR with an adamantine
> relic.
>
>>In the Underdark book, there is a +2 property called metalline, which
>>allows you to as a standard action change the metal weapon into another
>>type of metal. For example, you could change a stell weapon into cold
>>iron
>>or adamantine or silver, etc.
>
> Looks quite tempting. Do you recommend the Underdark book for other
> stuff, or
> was it disappointing?

I thought it was pretty decent. It has good information for Underdark stuff
in general, and good crunchy stuff. For example, it has the Mindwitness (a
Half-Illithid Beholder), which would put the fear into pretty much anybody
(it has all the beholder stuff, plus mind blast, plus psionics, and it can
eat your brain).

>>The 3.5 version of sure striking (IIRC it is in Player's guide to Faerun),
>>which allows you to overcome lawful, good, choatic and evil damage
>>reductions.
>
> Hmm. Not sure the gods of Paladins would appreciate a potentially
> anti-lawful
> or anti-good weapon.

A potentially anti-Lawful weapon works against Lawful Evil handily...

In any event, it is simply a permanent application of Align Weapon. It is
not in and of itself anti-anything.

> In any case, do you recall what the +bonus factor was?
> I don't own any Faerun books.

Metalline is +2 (from Underdark), and Sure-Striking (from Player's Guide to
Faerun) is +1. Morphing (which allows the weapon to become any other weapon
of the same type (light, one-handed, or two-handed), is also from Underdark,
and is +1. So, for a total of +4, you can beat any DR but Epic. Get those
Knowledge skills up!

Still, you would likely want to throw Holy on there.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Here-I-Am@No-Where.com wrote:

> [metalline, sizing, morphing, sure striking weapon]
>
> Interesting as they are, I think unbalancing once you have all those
> enchantments into one weapon.

Consider that the combined cost is something like +5 or +6. So instead
of a +6 or +7 steel longsword, you have a +1 anything made of anything.
Which can be nice, but is hardly obviously superior.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d00ef6$o02$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs
by 10
> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this can
be
> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the last
> couple of days and couldn't find it.

Nowhere.
The 'requirement' was mistaken.

Geoff.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <VVdVd.324$Le2.2507@nasal.pacific.net.au>,
Geoff Watson <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote:
>
>"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>news:d00ef6$o02$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs
>by 10
>> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this can
>be
>> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the last
>> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>
>Nowhere.
>The 'requirement' was mistaken.

Great! Thus one could spend 338,000gp on armour by going with +10 in plusses
(for 100,000GP) then piling on 200+k in fixed-cost enhancements (eg. 5
resistances improved for 42,000 each, total 210,00).

One is still left with the max +10 bonus weapon topping out at 200,000 in
plusses with no fixed costs to add. So the ancestral weapon wastes 100+k in
possible bonuses.

It occurred to me after the original message that, in a campaign where it is
easy to trade in old stuff to buy new stuff, it seems pointless to have an
ancestral relic because one could trade in old for new anyway, or have one's
party wizard enance an old weapon in a manner very similar to what happens
with the relic (although the relic enhancement does take less time).

So I'm tempted to make one more extension and say that, unlike normal
upgrades, an ancestral relic can go to to +13, for a cost of (13^2)*2000 =
338,000 (an amazing coincidence that the numbers just worked out -- or else
the designer of Ancestral Relic may have had the +13 idea in mind anyway).
[the existing table for +n is n^2*2000].

This would allow a +5 weapon with +6 in bonuses. For a paladin it seems
obvious to take Holy (+2) and Bane for the two major classis of big baddies
s/he would fight: undead and evil outsiders (+1*2); after that perhaps
Metalline (+2, change metallic type of weapon). This leave another +2,
possibly for Axiomatic (+2), or two of another Bane, or perhaps Keen, or
Merciful (for subduing non-evil enemies).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
news:VVdVd.324$Le2.2507@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>
> "David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
> news:d00ef6$o02$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs
> by 10
>> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this
>> can
> be
>> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the last
>> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>
> Nowhere.
> The 'requirement' was mistaken.

Indeed. That was my mistaken reading you are remembering. It only applies
if you are exceeding the bonus cap (+5 enhancement to weapons/armor, or +10
including everything added, +6 enhancement to stats, etc.).

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <d04ss6$bl1$1@knot.queensu.ca>,
David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>This would allow a +5 weapon with +6 in bonuses.

GAH! I meand +8 of course, which was implied by the discussion that followed.

>... This leave another +2,
>possibly for Axiomatic (+2), or two of another Bane, or perhaps Keen, or
>Merciful (for subduing non-evil enemies).

Or one could follow other suggestions and use the +2 for Sure Striking
(overcomes all DR but epic) and Morphing (change to any weapon of same type)
at +1 each.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d04ss6$bl1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> In article <VVdVd.324$Le2.2507@nasal.pacific.net.au>,
> Geoff Watson <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>>news:d00ef6$o02$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>>> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs
>>by 10
>>> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this
>>> can
>>be
>>> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the
>>> last
>>> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>>
>>Nowhere.
>>The 'requirement' was mistaken.
>
> Great! Thus one could spend 338,000gp on armour by going with +10 in
> plusses
> (for 100,000GP) then piling on 200+k in fixed-cost enhancements (eg. 5
> resistances improved for 42,000 each, total 210,00).

You would still need Craft Epic Arms & Armor to exceed 200K, though.

> One is still left with the max +10 bonus weapon topping out at 200,000 in
> plusses with no fixed costs to add. So the ancestral weapon wastes 100+k
> in
> possible bonuses.

How about Blindsighted on your weapon? It is +30K, and gives you blindsight
while wielding it. Of course, people can hear you coming with a 10 Listen
check, so there is a drawback. There are a few other add-ons that are a
flat cost; in fact, there are some in Oriental Adventures.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
> It occurred to me after the original message that, in a campaign where it
> is
> easy to trade in old stuff to buy new stuff, it seems pointless to have an
> ancestral relic because one could trade in old for new anyway, or have
> one's
> party wizard enance an old weapon in a manner very similar to what happens
> with the relic (although the relic enhancement does take less time).
>
> So I'm tempted to make one more extension and say that, unlike normal
> upgrades, an ancestral relic can go to to +13, for a cost of (13^2)*2000 =
> 338,000 (an amazing coincidence that the numbers just worked out -- or
> else
> the designer of Ancestral Relic may have had the +13 idea in mind anyway).
> [the existing table for +n is n^2*2000].
>
> This would allow a +5 weapon with +6 in bonuses. For a paladin it seems
> obvious to take Holy (+2) and Bane for the two major classis of big
> baddies
> s/he would fight: undead and evil outsiders (+1*2); after that perhaps
> Metalline (+2, change metallic type of weapon). This leave another +2,
> possibly for Axiomatic (+2), or two of another Bane, or perhaps Keen, or
> Merciful (for subduing non-evil enemies).
> --
> "Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
> http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long
> story...)
 
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In article <suOdnYJfort3gLvfRVn-sw@comcast.com>,
Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>news:d04ss6$bl1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>> Great! Thus one could spend 338,000gp on armour by going with +10 in
>> plusses
>> (for 100,000GP) then piling on 200+k in fixed-cost enhancements (eg. 5
>> resistances improved for 42,000 each, total 210,00).
>
>You would still need Craft Epic Arms & Armor to exceed 200K, though.

Where is this rule? If it's supposed to be in the DMG, I didn't find it. If
it's in the Epic rules themselves, then I could stick my fingers in my ears
and say "it's not core, it's not core".

>> One is still left with the max +10 bonus weapon topping out at 200,000 in
>> plusses with no fixed costs to add. So the ancestral weapon wastes 100+k
>> in
>> possible bonuses.
>
>How about Blindsighted on your weapon? It is +30K, and gives you blindsight
>while wielding it. Of course, people can hear you coming with a 10 Listen
>check, so there is a drawback. There are a few other add-ons that are a
>flat cost; in fact, there are some in Oriental Adventures.

I should have set context to say I was going by the DMG, where it's all
plusses for weapons and no adds. Where is Blindsighted from? I have quite a
few of the WOTC books, but not all, and only one non-WOTC ones (alchemy).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <8c2dnRuojPbWgLvfRVn-sQ@comcast.com>,
Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
>news:VVdVd.324$Le2.2507@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>>
>> "David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>> news:d00ef6$o02$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>>> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs
>> by 10
>>> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this
>>> can
>> be
>>> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the last
>>> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>>
>> Nowhere.
>> The 'requirement' was mistaken.
>
>Indeed. That was my mistaken reading you are remembering. It only applies
>if you are exceeding the bonus cap (+5 enhancement to weapons/armor, or +10
>including everything added, +6 enhancement to stats, etc.).

OK, but, according to my question above, where did you find this rule? I did
look for it, I really did, but I didn't read my books from cover to cover.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, David Alex Lamb hastily scrawled:
>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>
>>Indeed. That was my mistaken reading you are remembering. It only applies
>>if you are exceeding the bonus cap (+5 enhancement to weapons/armor, or +10
>>including everything added, +6 enhancement to stats, etc.).
>
>OK, but, according to my question above, where did you find this rule? I did
>look for it, I really did, but I didn't read my books from cover to cover.

Epic Level Handbook. Outside of Epic, 200k magic items do not exist.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:57:16 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> In the Underdark book, there is a +2 property called metalline, which
>> allows you to as a standard action change the metal weapon into another
>> type of metal. For example, you could change a stell weapon into cold
>> iron
>> or adamantine or silver, etc.
>>
>> The 3.5 version of sure striking (IIRC it is in Player's guide to Faerun),
>> which allows you to overcome lawful, good, choatic and evil damage
>> reductions. Using both a metalline and sure striking would give you a
>> more
>> than decent melee weapon.
>
>Decent?!? It would give you the whole golf bag in one item! Indeed, an
>ancestral weapon should have both these enchantments, so it can be more of a
>"one-size-fits-all" weapon. Also, I believe there is an enchantment that
>can change the type of weapon (to further penetrate DR X/Bludgeoning, etc.),
>if that is your thing.

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I dislike having magic
be the power that trumps everything else, so it was good to see more
examples of DR X/Something_other_than_magic.

On the other hand, the proliferation of DR X/Stuff creates the golf
bag effect, which I think I like even less than Magic Trumping
Everything.

And for the worst of both hands, the "golf bag" produces an
overwhelming temptation to create a magical solution, like
"metalline," so that a campaign can have both the golf bag *and* the
uber-magic solution. Bleah.

If there's no escaping the need for magic weapons, then I'd prefer
that the usual magic weapons have just pluses, rather than a load of
kewl properties. Which means bringing back the old 3.0 DR X/+N.

Or maybe a modified version where most DR is DR X/(stuff or +N), where
+N is +2 to +5, so as to keep (stuff) from feeling so much like an
inferior form of magic.




--
Erol K. Bayburt
ErolB1@aol.com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d058rk$8uh$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> In article <8c2dnRuojPbWgLvfRVn-sQ@comcast.com>,
> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
>>news:VVdVd.324$Le2.2507@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>>>
>>> "David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:d00ef6$o02$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>>>> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item
>>>> costs
>>> by 10
>>>> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this
>>>> can
>>> be
>>>> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the
>>>> last
>>>> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>>>
>>> Nowhere.
>>> The 'requirement' was mistaken.
>>
>>Indeed. That was my mistaken reading you are remembering. It only
>>applies
>>if you are exceeding the bonus cap (+5 enhancement to weapons/armor, or
>>+10
>>including everything added, +6 enhancement to stats, etc.).
>
> OK, but, according to my question above, where did you find this rule? I
> did
> look for it, I really did, but I didn't read my books from cover to cover.

It is in both the Epic Level Handbook, and the SRD:

EPIC MAGIC ITEMS 1



While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power
that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great
power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic
item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic
magic item.

.. Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.

.. Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.

.. Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.

.. Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor's
enhancement bonus).

.. Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.

.. Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.

.. Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.

.. Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.

.. Has a caster level above 20th.

.. Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for
armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or
additional value for intelligent items.

An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic
items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic
items.

Epic magic items are not artifacts. They are not unique, though they are
certainly very rare, and anyone with the proper item creation feats can
build them. Even an epic magic item can never grant a dodge bonus, and the
maximum inherent bonus that can be applied to an ability score is +5. An
epic magic item cannot be created that uses or mimics an epic spell. A major
artifact might be able to mimic such a spell, however.



CREATING EPIC MAGIC ITEMS
The process of creating an epic magic item is very similar to creating a
nonepic magic item. However, certain important differences exist.



CASTER LEVEL
Spells with an effective level of 10th or higher are possible at epic
levels. Because these spell slots aren't automatically gained at a
particular level like 0- to 9th-level spells are, they don't have a minimum
caster level. For this reason, the minimum caster level for any spell of
10th level or higher is set at 11 + spell level.



PREREQUISITES
In addition to the materials and tools required for nonepic magic items, any
epic magic item requires at least two item creation feats: the epic and
nonepic version.



MARKET PRICE
Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of
an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the
limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of
the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic
characteristics, such as caster level, don't trigger this multiplier.



EXPERIENCE POINT COST
The experience point cost to create an epic magic item is determined
differently than for a normal magic item. For all epic magic items other
than scrolls, divide the market price by 100, then add 10,000 XP to the
result. The final number is the experience point cost to create the item.

For epic scrolls, divide the market price by 25 (as normal for creating a
nonepic scroll), then add 1,000 XP to the result. The final number is the
experience point cost to create the epic scroll.



MAGIC ITEM DESCRIPTIONS
In the following sections, each general type of magic item, such as armor or
scrolls, has an overall description, followed by descriptions of specific
items, if any. Each magic item description and table follows the same format
used for nonepic magic items. Specific exceptions are noted as necessary.


--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Peter Knutsen" <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote in message
news:38ie5uF5lmt2bU1@individual.net...
>
> David Alex Lamb wrote:
>> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs
>> by 10
>> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this
>> can be
>
> That has got to be incorrect. I remember having seen official Staves, in
> 3.5, which had a cost of between 200'000 and 300'000 gold.
>
>> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the last
>> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>>
>> [I did find a *10 cost in the tables for magic armour and weapons, where
>> +5
>> was 25,000 and +6 was 360,000 but that looks like something different.]
>
> Probably some kind of Epic rule. non-Epic items can't give a bonus (e.g.
> to AC or hit/damage) higher than +5, so if you wish to go above +5
> (presumably +6 for ability score boosting), you must use some other cost
> formula, which is apparently a lot harsher.
>
>> I'm especially interested because the Ancestral Relic feat lets a level
>> 18-20
>> character upgrade their relic to a total over 200,000 -- something like
>> 338,000 at level 20. This seems to be out of sync with the 200k limit.
>
> My best guess is that any such 200k limit rule will be in the Epic
> supplement, but I suggest you ignore i, and let the Ancestral Relic feat
> just work.

That is what I would rule.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d058oh$8o1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> In article <suOdnYJfort3gLvfRVn-sw@comcast.com>,
> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>>news:d04ss6$bl1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>>> Great! Thus one could spend 338,000gp on armour by going with +10 in
>>> plusses
>>> (for 100,000GP) then piling on 200+k in fixed-cost enhancements (eg. 5
>>> resistances improved for 42,000 each, total 210,00).
>>
>>You would still need Craft Epic Arms & Armor to exceed 200K, though.
>
> Where is this rule? If it's supposed to be in the DMG, I didn't find it.
> If
> it's in the Epic rules themselves, then I could stick my fingers in my
> ears
> and say "it's not core, it's not core".
>
>>> One is still left with the max +10 bonus weapon topping out at 200,000
>>> in
>>> plusses with no fixed costs to add. So the ancestral weapon wastes
>>> 100+k
>>> in
>>> possible bonuses.
>>
>>How about Blindsighted on your weapon? It is +30K, and gives you
>>blindsight
>>while wielding it. Of course, people can hear you coming with a 10 Listen
>>check, so there is a drawback. There are a few other add-ons that are a
>>flat cost; in fact, there are some in Oriental Adventures.
>
> I should have set context to say I was going by the DMG, where it's all
> plusses for weapons and no adds. Where is Blindsighted from?

Underdark.

> I have quite a few of the WOTC books, but not all, and only
> one non-WOTC ones (alchemy).

You could also try shoehorning in appropriate armor add-ons. For example,
the Energy Protection add-ons do not seem unreasonable to me for a weapon
(the weapons "aura of power" disrupts the attack a bit, offering
protection).

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d04ss6$bl1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> In article <VVdVd.324$Le2.2507@nasal.pacific.net.au>,
> Geoff Watson <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>>news:d00ef6$o02$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>>> A recent discussion mentioned a requirement to multiply magic item costs
>>by 10
>>> once their cost reached 200,000gp. Can someone point me to where this
>>> can
>>be
>>> found in either the DMG or SRD? I went searching both places in the
>>> last
>>> couple of days and couldn't find it.
>>
>>Nowhere.
>>The 'requirement' was mistaken.
>
> Great! Thus one could spend 338,000gp on armour by going with +10 in
> plusses
> (for 100,000GP) then piling on 200+k in fixed-cost enhancements (eg. 5
> resistances improved for 42,000 each, total 210,00).
>
> One is still left with the max +10 bonus weapon topping out at 200,000 in
> plusses with no fixed costs to add. So the ancestral weapon wastes 100+k
> in
> possible bonuses.
>
> It occurred to me after the original message that, in a campaign where it
> is
> easy to trade in old stuff to buy new stuff, it seems pointless to have an
> ancestral relic because one could trade in old for new anyway, or have
> one's
> party wizard enance an old weapon in a manner very similar to what happens
> with the relic (although the relic enhancement does take less time).
>
> So I'm tempted to make one more extension and say that, unlike normal
> upgrades, an ancestral relic can go to to +13, for a cost of (13^2)*2000 =
> 338,000 (an amazing coincidence that the numbers just worked out -- or
> else
> the designer of Ancestral Relic may have had the +13 idea in mind anyway).
> [the existing table for +n is n^2*2000].
>
> This would allow a +5 weapon with +6 in bonuses. For a paladin it seems
> obvious to take Holy (+2) and Bane for the two major classis of big
> baddies
> s/he would fight: undead and evil outsiders (+1*2);

Do Undead and Magebane (from Complete Arcane).

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <iKqdnSxETN-sq7rfRVn-pA@comcast.com>,
Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>news:d058rk$8uh$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>> In article <8c2dnRuojPbWgLvfRVn-sQ@comcast.com>,
>> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Indeed. That was my mistaken reading you are remembering. It only
>>>applies
>>>if you are exceeding the bonus cap (+5 enhancement to weapons/armor, or
>>>+10
>>>including everything added, +6 enhancement to stats, etc.).
>>
>> OK, but, according to my question above, where did you find this rule? I
>> did
>> look for it, I really did, but I didn't read my books from cover to cover.
>
>It is in both the Epic Level Handbook, and the SRD:
>
>EPIC MAGIC ITEMS 1

Wow. Thanks for the long post. I do have the Epic handbook, and in
retrospect I should have thought of looking in there, but I could go on for a
long time about my current spate of mental lapses.

Now, I don't really want to reopen the flamewar Lorenz caused with his
posts about what's "core", but I was under the impression that just the PHB,
DMG, and MM 1 were D&D core rules. I imagine SRD could be considered "core
D20" as opposed to "core D&D"?

How would you reconcile the apparent contradiction between the Ancestral Relic
feat, which for levels 18-20 says you can have relic values over 200k, with
the 200k non-epic limit?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
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