Another question: Revelation of the Sire

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Hello again.

If Matthias plays Revelation of the Sire on Maldavis,is Maldavis now
Independent (and Salubri)? Or is she Camarilla Salubri?

What if Tegyrius (Camarilla Assamite) plays Revelation of the Sire on
Maldavis?

Thanks.
 
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Thanks.

With that in mind, what do you think of this:

Deck Name: The Salubri Mean Well
Created By: S.
Description: The Blood Doll, Aaron's Razor, and Signet of K. Saul are
for Blanche.
Revelation of the Sire is for Maldavis.
Sanguine Instruction is for Miriam (Obe), for Blanche (Aus), or for
Maldavis (Obe)

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 18, Max: 28, Avg: 5.75)
----------------------------------------------
4 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri:2
3 Blanche Hill aus FOR OBE 6, Salubri:2
2 Maldavis for pre AUS 4, Caitiff:3
3 Miriam Benyona AUS for obe 5, Salubri:2

Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (14 cards)
1 Blood Doll
1 Erciyes Fragments, The
1 Fortschritt Library
1 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
1 Life Boon
1 Major Boon
6 Minion Tap
1 Sight Beyond Sight
1 Visit from the Capuchin

Action (26 cards)
4 Precognizant Mobility
8 Renewed Vigor
1 Revelation of the Sire
2 Sanguine Instruction
10 Spirit Marionette
1 Unburdening the Bestial Soul

Action Modifier (10 cards)
2 Daring the Dawn
2 Kiss of Ra, The
6 Repulsion

Reaction (16 cards)
5 Telepathic Counter
5 Telepathic Misdirection
6 Wake with Evening's Freshness

Combat (14 cards)
6 Anesthetic Touch
2 Dodge
4 Read Intentions
2 Vitae Block

Ally (1 cards)
1 Alia, God's Messenger

Equipment (3 cards)
1 Aaron's Feeding Razor
1 Signet of King Saul, The
1 Tapestry of Blood

Events (6 cards)

1 Anthelios, the Red Star
1 Fall of the Camarilla
1 Rise of the Nephtali
1 Torpid Blood
1 The Unmasking
1 Wormwood (or Thirst)

I've been trying a version of this without all the Gehenna Events, and
it's worked pretty well *except* that it fails horribly against heavy
vote decks. 2nd Tradition stops all my key actions, Banishment (the
horror), and PTO (argh!).
 
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bjornstein@yahoo.com a écrit :
> Hello again.
>
> If Matthias plays Revelation of the Sire on Maldavis,is Maldavis now
> Independent (and Salubri)? Or is she Camarilla Salubri?

Maldavis is now an indepdentant Salubri

what matters is the card text of revelation of the sire

Requires a ready vampire who is not () Caitiff. Choose a Caitiff who is
younger than the acting vampire. Put this card on that Caitiff; this is
a (D) action if you do not control that Caitiff. That Caitiff is now
considered to be *a member of the same clan as the acting vampire*; he
or she is no longer considered Caitiff. His or her capacity increases by 1.


> What if Tegyrius (Camarilla Assamite) plays Revelation of the Sire on
> Maldavis?

So Maldavis is now an independant Assamite,per card text, since the
default sect for the assamite is independant (rulebook).
 
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In message <42c95500$0$30791$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>, reyda
<true_reyda@hotmail.com> writes:
<snip - does Revelation of the Sire force a sect change too>
>what matters is the card text of revelation of the sire
>
>Requires a ready vampire who is not () Caitiff. Choose a Caitiff who is
>younger than the acting vampire. Put this card on that Caitiff; this is
>a (D) action if you do not control that Caitiff. That Caitiff is now
>considered to be *a member of the same clan as the acting vampire*; he
>or she is no longer considered Caitiff. His or her capacity increases
>by 1.

The card text specifies the clan change, but it doesn't specify sect.

To get that, you have to go beyond the card text of Revelation of the
Sire and compare with the rulebook, specifically Section 10:

If a vampire changes clans (by means of a Clan Impersonation
card, for example) to a clan that belongs to a different sect
(see the lists in the following sections), he changes sects as
well.


Note that if, for instance, you'd made a Sabbat Salubri (not a Salubri
Antitribu), you'd still become Independent as you take on the default
sect of the clan, not the same sect as the vampire who changed you.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 
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My bad, sorry.

To be fair, though, I *have* read the rulebook through several times
recently, and I stilled missed the relevant bit. So thanks for pointing
it out to me.

S.
 
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In message <42c9c062$0$3747$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>, reyda
<true_reyda@hotmail.com> writes:
>Pardon me for the pedantry, but this post has absolutely no purpose,
>since a normal person, i mean not selfish nor lazy like you, have read
>what other people (me in that cause) have written till the very end.

The question raised the issue of what sect the vampire was. You
provided the card text, highlighting that it became the same clan as the
acting vampire. This was already well understood by the original
poster. Hence, your explanation of "what matters is the card text of
revelation of the sire" doesn't actually explain what's going on. They
already know that the clan changes!

So, I provided a fuller explanation of how and why you derive the sect -
which is not explained with "what matters is the card text of revelation
of the sire". And "So Maldavis is now an independant Assamite,per card
text" is also unhelpful, as card text specifies nothing about him
becoming Independent, though it does specify that they become a member
of a given clan.


Explaining why they become the default sect, and what implications that
has, often proves useful in these situations, IMO.


The card text specifies nothing about the sect - but you point at it as
though it does - "per card text". Nope, card text doesn't say what you
say it says. So I explained why what happens happens.


Certainly, many players have been confused/amused that (say) an
Independent Lucita creates Sabbat Lasombra (for instance), so clarifying
the position (and not pointing to non-existent card text) is helpful.

The rulebook certainly specifies default sects for clans - but it also
specifies what happens on a clan change, which is different.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 
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James Coupe a écrit :
> In message <42c95500$0$30791$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>, reyda
> <true_reyda@hotmail.com> writes:
> <snip - does Revelation of the Sire force a sect change too>
>
>>what matters is the card text of revelation of the sire
>>
>>Requires a ready vampire who is not () Caitiff. Choose a Caitiff who is
>>younger than the acting vampire. Put this card on that Caitiff; this is
>>a (D) action if you do not control that Caitiff. That Caitiff is now
>>considered to be *a member of the same clan as the acting vampire*; he
>>or she is no longer considered Caitiff. His or her capacity increases
>>by 1.
>
>
> The card text specifies the clan change, but it doesn't specify sect.
>
> To get that, you have to go beyond the card text of Revelation of the
> Sire and compare with the rulebook, specifically Section 10:

Pardon me for the pedantry, but this post has absolutely no purpose,
since a normal person, i mean not selfish nor lazy like you, have read
what other people (me in that cause) have written till the very end.

that is "the default sect for assamite is independant (rulebook)"...



=D
 
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bjornstein@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<1120493247.128833.248440@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
> Thanks.
>
> With that in mind, what do you think of this:
>
> Deck Name: The Salubri Mean Well
> Created By: S.
> Description: The Blood Doll, Aaron's Razor, and Signet of K. Saul are
> for Blanche.
> Revelation of the Sire is for Maldavis.
> Sanguine Instruction is for Miriam (Obe), for Blanche (Aus), or for
> Maldavis (Obe)


I havent checked everything yet, but i always find it pleasant that in
the description it says what the deck is supposed to do
:)

That said (so perhaps i miss some stuff) here's commenst
:)


>
> Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 18, Max: 28, Avg: 5.75)
> ----------------------------------------------
> 4 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri:2
> 3 Blanche Hill aus FOR OBE 6, Salubri:2
> 2 Maldavis for pre AUS 4, Caitiff:3
> 3 Miriam Benyona AUS for obe 5, Salubri:2
>

Uhm,...wow, is your third vampire really worth the 6 extra pool?
and, if you changed Maldavis clan before bringing out the third Sal,
it is even 9 pool extra,...


> Library: (90 cards)
> -------------------
> Master (14 cards)
> 1 Blood Doll
> 1 Erciyes Fragments, The

not sure,...you cannot really protect it, and dont have THAT much
actions

> 1 Fortschritt Library
> 1 Heidelberg Castle, Germany

only 1? you play 10 marionettes,...

> 1 Life Boon
> 1 Major Boon

i love Lifeboons,...not that much of a fan of major boon myslef. How
do your preds vamps go to torpor?

> 6 Minion Tap

ok, so with vigor, your poolgain is reasonable. I play 1 more in my
decks that rely heavilyt on poolgain to pay for their minions

> 1 Sight Beyond Sight

good card, but i wouldnt concentrate on blocking that much.

> 1 Visit from the Capuchin

Even with your events,...play more so you are sure that you have it in
play when you play those events,...or play dreams instead i would say.



> Action (26 cards)
> 4 Precognizant Mobility

you DO want to untap, but you are not playing the Goblin? why?

> 8 Renewed Vigor
> 1 Revelation of the Sire
> 2 Sanguine Instruction

is this really worth it? Do you NEED 3 or 4 vamps that can play
Marionettes at superior? do you see that many untapped vampires when
you play this deck?


> 10 Spirit Marionette
> 1 Unburdening the Bestial Soul

do you think it is wroth it?

>
> Action Modifier (10 cards)
> 2 Daring the Dawn
> 2 Kiss of Ra, The
> 6 Repulsion

If you are scared of guys with 2 intercept,...did you consider Neutral
Guard?
Combines nicely with daring the dawn if you want to burn stolen
marionettes,..
especially if you play the signet as well,...

freakdrives are powercards btw
:)


>
> Reaction (16 cards)
> 5 Telepathic Counter
> 5 Telepathic Misdirection
> 6 Wake with Evening's Freshness
>
> Combat (14 cards)
> 6 Anesthetic Touch
> 2 Dodge
> 4 Read Intentions

dont like these much,...

> 2 Vitae Block

no prevention at all? they all have for

>
> Ally (1 cards)
> 1 Alia, God's Messenger
>
> Equipment (3 cards)
> 1 Aaron's Feeding Razor
> 1 Signet of King Saul, The
> 1 Tapestry of Blood
>
> Events (6 cards)
>
> 1 Anthelios, the Red Star

not sure,...doesnt look like you can use it better than your
opponents,...
i dont think i would play this if that is the case,...if you DO play
it, think about adding Parthenons, 2 suddens and 2 DI's

> 1 Fall of the Camarilla
> 1 Rise of the Nephtali
> 1 Torpid Blood
> 1 The Unmasking

huh? Are there no ally-decks in your environment? that is THE
powercard for those decks,..i say let them play it themselves

> 1 Wormwood (or Thirst)

I would chose different events,...events that at least dont help
others much. Port Authority? i dont have all the events in my head,
but Anthelios and unmasking seem to help your opponents more than
you,...

>
> I've been trying a version of this without all the Gehenna Events, and
> it's worked pretty well *except* that it fails horribly against heavy
> vote decks. 2nd Tradition stops all my key actions, Banishment (the
> horror), and PTO (argh!).

Well,...DI is a pretty good card,...

and i use !ventrue in my Sal deck, than you can play demostration,
that helps a bit. (if they have dom you can play marionette with them
too)

hope this helps a bit
W
 
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James Coupe a écrit :
> In message <42c9c062$0$3747$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>, reyda
> <true_reyda@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>Pardon me for the pedantry, but this post has absolutely no purpose,
>>since a normal person, i mean not selfish nor lazy like you, have read
>>what other people (me in that cause) have written till the very end.
>
>
> The question raised the issue of what sect the vampire was. You
> provided the card text, highlighting that it became the same clan as the
> acting vampire. This was already well understood by the original
> poster. Hence, your explanation of "what matters is the card text of
> revelation of the sire" doesn't actually explain what's going on. They
> already know that the clan changes!
>
> So, I provided a fuller explanation of how and why you derive the sect -
> which is not explained with "what matters is the card text of revelation
> of the sire". And "So Maldavis is now an independant Assamite,per card
> text" is also unhelpful, as card text specifies nothing about him
> becoming Independent, though it does specify that they become a member
> of a given clan.
>
>
> Explaining why they become the default sect, and what implications that
> has, often proves useful in these situations, IMO.
>
>
> The card text specifies nothing about the sect - but you point at it as
> though it does - "per card text". Nope, card text doesn't say what you
> say it says. So I explained why what happens happens.
>
>
> Certainly, many players have been confused/amused that (say) an
> Independent Lucita creates Sabbat Lasombra (for instance), so clarifying
> the position (and not pointing to non-existent card text) is helpful.
>
> The rulebook certainly specifies default sects for clans - but it also
> specifies what happens on a clan change, which is different.
>

end of demonstration :)
 
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> i always find it pleasant that in the description it says
>what the deck is supposed to do

Ah, sorry about that. I use that field to put in reminders to myself.

> i love Lifeboons,...not that much of a fan of major boon
> myself. How do your preds vamps go to torpor?

Not sure I get you here. Aren't you confusing it with Minor Boon?
Anyway, the idea is to wait for my predator to be bled (preferably for
1), and take the bleed. This discourages my predator from bleeding me
for a lot (as she would only be bleeding herself).

>> Action (26 cards)
>> 4 Precognizant Mobility

>you DO want to untap, but you are not playing the Goblin?

I have no vampire with a capacity above 7. The PM's aren't
for my own vampires; they are for untapping another vampire,
so that it can be stolen with Spirit Marionette. People tend
to leave them tapped in order to stop you doing this.

>> 1 Revelation of the Sire
>> 2 Sanguine Instruction

> is this really worth it? Do you NEED 3 or 4 vamps that can
> play Marionettes at superior?

No, but I can really use 3 vampires who can all play Renewed
Vigor at superior on each other.

>> 6 Repulsion

>If you are scared of guys with 2 intercept,...did you
>consider Neutral Guard?

I did, but I never seem to meet any younger vampires. All I
ever see trying to block me are capacity 8+. I do like the
burning angle, though... hadn't thought of that.

>> 1 The Unmasking

>huh? Are there no ally-decks in your environment?

No.

>> 1 Wormwood (or Thirst)

>I would chose different events,...events that at least dont
>help others much. Port Authority?

Port Authority is Government, not Gehenna. The whole point
about the events is: a) to be able to play Fall of the
Camarilla (requires 3 Gehenna cards), and b) to play Alia,
God's Messenger (just because she's Alia). I tried to pick
events that aren't too hard to put into play, that I can
replace soon, and that have some synergy with the rest of
the deck (for example, torpid blood and Miriam's special, or
inferior Renewed Vigor).

>Well,...DI is a pretty good card,

It is, but I'd have to hold on to it forever in expectation
of a possible PTO. Then I'd just get hit with a second PTO,
after I'd used up my DI. If there are no Justicars or Inner
Circlers (because there is no Camarilla) then that's that
problem solved.

Anyway, that helped a lot, thanks! Especially about Neutral
Guard. It would go: Spirit Marionette a vampire with FOR,
take away all its blood but one with Heidelberg Castle,
bleed using Neutral Guard (for), and Daring the Dawn at
inferior, burn the vampire. Is that right?

Cheers.
 
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>> i always find it pleasant that in the description it says
>>what the deck is supposed to do


>Ah, sorry about that. I use that field to put in reminders to myself.

For myself i do that too, but if i want others to read it i try to get
it in
:)


>> i love Lifeboons,...not that much of a fan of major boon
>> myself. How do your preds vamps go to torpor?


>Not sure I get you here. Aren't you confusing it with Minor Boon?
>Anyway, the idea is to wait for my predator to be bled (preferably for
>1), and take the bleed. This discourages my predator from bleeding me
>for a lot (as she would only be bleeding herself).

Brainfart, sorry,..you are right. I am not too fond of the card to be
hnoust, especially since you can deflect.


>>> Action (26 cards)
>>> 4 Precognizant Mobility
>>you DO want to untap, but you are not playing the Goblin?


>I have no vampire with a capacity above 7. The PM's aren't
>for my own vampires; they are for untapping another vampire,
>so that it can be stolen with Spirit Marionette. People tend
>to leave them tapped in order to stop you doing this.

Uhm,...well, that is exactly what i meant,...you can use the goblin to
untap Their minions as well (as long as they are not cam).



>>>> 1 Revelation of the Sire
>>>> 2 Sanguine Instruction
>> is this really worth it? Do you NEED 3 or 4 vamps that can
>> play Marionettes at superior?


>No, but I can really use 3 vampires who can all play Renewed
>Vigor at superior on each other.

Ok,...why?

>> 6 Repulsion
>If you are scared of guys with 2 intercept,...did you
>consider Neutral Guard?


>I did, but I never seem to meet any younger vampires. All I
>ever see trying to block me are capacity 8+. I do like the
>burning angle, though... hadn't thought of that.

ok, different environments, different cards
:)


>>> 1 The Unmasking
>>huh? Are there no ally-decks in your environment?


>No.

Ok,...well in that case it is a good card to play.
And i say, build an ally deck, if it is missing in your environment.
They can be good!




>>> 1 Wormwood (or Thirst)
>>I would chose different events,...events that at least dont
>>help others much. Port Authority?


>Port Authority is Government, not Gehenna. The whole point
>about the events is: a) to be able to play Fall of the
>Camarilla (requires 3 Gehenna cards), and b) to play Alia,
>God's Messenger (just because she's Alia). I tried to pick
>events that aren't too hard to put into play, that I can
>replace soon, and that have some synergy with the rest of
>the deck (for example, torpid blood and Miriam's special, or
>inferior Renewed Vigor).

Right forgot about the not-gehenna part of events. Thing remains the
same though about Anthelios, to me it looks like you give others more
than yourself. If you play anthelios, at least play DI's and Suddens.
and preferably fit in parthenons.

Blood trade is easy to play btw, if you remove your boons from the
deck. Blood weakens probably doesnt hurt you as much as others. and
thirst is ok too against weenie decks.


>>Well,...DI is a pretty good card,


>It is, but I'd have to hold on to it forever in expectation
>of a possible PTO. Then I'd just get hit with a second PTO,
>after I'd used up my DI. If there are no Justicars or Inner
>Circlers (because there is no Camarilla) then that's that
>problem solved.

True, (unless kemintiri is on the table :) )but if you intend to keep
playing anthelios you can get it back in hand if you expect a deck
plays it,...

Perhaps it is a good thing btw, if you really feel that the Fall is
necesaary to get another fortshritt


>Anyway, that helped a lot, thanks! Especially about Neutral
>Guard. It would go: Spirit Marionette a vampire with FOR,
>take away all its blood but one with Heidelberg Castle,
>bleed using Neutral Guard (for), and Daring the Dawn at
>inferior, burn the vampire. Is that right?

That's it yep
:)

W