News Apple, Intel, and Nvidia Suppliers Halt Production in China Due to Mand Shutdowns

Giroro

Honorable
Jan 22, 2015
886
281
11,390
13
This is a bit of a head-scratcher to figure out what China is actually trying to do, because it definitely has nothing to do with emissions, the environment, or energy usage. It will likely do net harm in those categories as it causes more work overall and spikes in energy usage tend to reduce efficiency.
The first question is: Can the lost work really be deferred to other days/shifts? Odds are that some factories are already running 24/7, and they will be hurt. China may be targeting those particular producers.

Another interesting aspect is: "Furthermore, enterprises paying more taxes .... will not be affected by power outages"
So this may be as simple as strong-armed mob style extortion. Or, possibly an effort to give an unfair competative edge to the companies controlled by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government seems to be becoming very unfriendly to foreign companies and ideas, particularly in tech. It would be wise for some of these companies to pull out gracefully before Xi decides to go smash-and-grab on their facilities and IP.

If its not already too late, that is. It has got to be very hard to withdraw investments from China ever since they seized control of Hong Kong and shut down the free market.
 

Sluggotg

Commendable
Feb 17, 2019
14
8
1,515
0
This is a bit of a head-scratcher to figure out what China is actually trying to do, because it definitely has nothing to do with emissions, the environment, or energy usage. It will likely do net harm in those categories as it causes more work overall and spikes in energy usage tend to reduce efficiency.
The first question is: Can the lost work really be deferred to other days/shifts? Odds are that some factories are already running 24/7, and they will be hurt. China may be targeting those particular producers.

Another interesting aspect is: "Furthermore, enterprises paying more taxes .... will not be affected by power outages"
So this may be as simple as strong-armed mob style extortion. Or, possibly an effort to give an unfair competative edge to the companies controlled by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government seems to be becoming very unfriendly to foreign companies and ideas, particularly in tech. It would be wise for some of these companies to pull out gracefully before Xi decides to go smash-and-grab on their facilities and IP.

If its not already too late, that is. It has got to be very hard to withdraw investments from China ever since they seized control of Hong Kong and shut down the free market.
Hong Kong was such a nice place to go. (Very cool place in the 80s. Had a unique Vibe). Then the Commies took it back. (Taiwan may be next).
 

hallby81

Distinguished
Jul 4, 2011
17
19
18,525
1
This is a bit of a head-scratcher to figure out what China is actually trying to do, because it definitely has nothing to do with emissions, the environment, or energy usage. It will likely do net harm in those categories as it causes more work overall and spikes in energy usage tend to reduce efficiency.
The first question is: Can the lost work really be deferred to other days/shifts? Odds are that some factories are already running 24/7, and they will be hurt. China may be targeting those particular producers.

Another interesting aspect is: "Furthermore, enterprises paying more taxes .... will not be affected by power outages"
So this may be as simple as strong-armed mob style extortion. Or, possibly an effort to give an unfair competative edge to the companies controlled by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government seems to be becoming very unfriendly to foreign companies and ideas, particularly in tech. It would be wise for some of these companies to pull out gracefully before Xi decides to go smash-and-grab on their facilities and IP.

If its not already too late, that is. It has got to be very hard to withdraw investments from China ever since they seized control of Hong Kong and shut down the free market.
There was a story that I read about a week ago or so (can't remember the publication off the top of my head) that basically delved into how Xi sees China going forward. And it was pretty chilling what the destination is. A combination of Maoist central planning with some perverse form of market socialism. Xi is a Maoist to his core, according to this article, and the last 30 years of Chinese free market economy should now come to an end and be replaced with something that allows more controlled growth. To me, it sounds like Xi and the CCP politburo are just scared they are going to lose control of the population as the free market influences its giant middle class.
 
Reactions: purple_dragon

Abion47

Distinguished
Apr 4, 2012
52
8
18,535
0
If the affected companies lose 3 days of power consumption and then compensate with 3 nights worth of night shifts, what is this measure going to actually solve in terms of energy consumption and emissions? If anything, it's just going to make things worse.
 
Reactions: Brian28

Nolonar

Distinguished
Dec 17, 2013
138
23
18,685
0
This is a bit of a head-scratcher to figure out what China is actually trying to do, because it definitely has nothing to do with emissions, the environment, or energy usage. It will likely do net harm in those categories as it causes more work overall and spikes in energy usage tend to reduce efficiency.
Weird... if this happened here, we'd be blaming our government for being incompetent and foolish.
But when it comes to China, we somehow automatically assume that their government can't possibly be incompetent or foolish. Deceitful, maybe, but neither incompetent nor foolish.

I wonder why that is.
 
Reactions: Why_Me

Nolonar

Distinguished
Dec 17, 2013
138
23
18,685
0
If the affected companies lose 3 days of power consumption and then compensate with 3 nights worth of night shifts, what is this measure going to actually solve in terms of energy consumption and emissions? If anything, it's just going to make things worse.
Well, people consume less power during the night. So if a company is forced to work during the night, because they can't get power during the day, then this measure would at the very least make it easier to supply these companies with renewable (or cleaner) power sources, that would otherwise be occupied by other people during the day.

That's assuming these companies compensate with night shifts instead of simply accept their losses, of course.
 

valreesio

Distinguished
Oct 20, 2007
20
1
18,515
0
This is as useless as daylight savings time. As others have pointed out, taking on extra shifts just shifts the energy usage to another time, it doesn't magically make it disappear. Also, giving preferential treatment (power) to those who pay more money (taxes) for it is just wrong on so many levels. But, what do you expect when dealing with China?
 

Abion47

Distinguished
Apr 4, 2012
52
8
18,535
0
Well, people consume less power during the night. So if a company is forced to work during the night, because they can't get power during the day, then this measure would at the very least make it easier to supply these companies with renewable (or cleaner) power sources, that would otherwise be occupied by other people during the day.
Power companies already work in cycles with more power generated during the day than at night. It's not like there's a set number of W/h that a power company is producing all the time and more of it is used during the day than at night. All this change will do is make power companies operate at a much lower consumption for 3 days then work at a much higher power consumption for 3 days and 3 nights straight afterward.
 

Co BIY

Honorable
Jun 18, 2015
539
94
11,090
6
I'm sure the allocation of power will go to the companies with the most "social credit" and solid government connections.

China has reached a point of development where the easy gains are behind it and the Central Planners will no longer have easy successes.

When China was way behind the West almost any modernization decision by the Central planners would result in large gains and resulted in fantastic growth. Now the decisions are much harder, the margins tighter and the chance of damaging rather than helping are high.
 

wr3zzz

Distinguished
Dec 31, 2007
59
15
18,535
0
This is a bit of a head-scratcher to figure out what China is actually trying to do, because it definitely has nothing to do with emissions, the environment, or energy usage. It will likely do net harm in those categories as it causes more work overall and spikes in energy usage tend to reduce efficiency.
The first question is: Can the lost work really be deferred to other days/shifts? Odds are that some factories are already running 24/7, and they will be hurt. China may be targeting those particular producers.

Another interesting aspect is: "Furthermore, enterprises paying more taxes .... will not be affected by power outages"
So this may be as simple as strong-armed mob style extortion. Or, possibly an effort to give an unfair competative edge to the companies controlled by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government seems to be becoming very unfriendly to foreign companies and ideas, particularly in tech. It would be wise for some of these companies to pull out gracefully before Xi decides to go smash-and-grab on their facilities and IP.

If its not already too late, that is. It has got to be very hard to withdraw investments from China ever since they seized control of Hong Kong and shut down the free market.
The article just putting together bits of data without telling readers what is actually going on. China usually has very good power supply with 15-20% of reserve. However, power demand jump abnormally to 17% this year due to pose pandemic demand surge from around the world while supply rose only slightly as weather has negatively impacted hydro and wind power. China actually has enough generating capacity but that would require ramping up coal burning plants but half the provinces have failed to meet the power consumption per-GDP output audit so Beijing won't let them burn more coal. In essences too much demand and provinces that rely on hydro and wind don't have enough supply due to weather and provinces that didn't meet power efficiency improvement targets are ordered not to burn more coal. Some of the latter provinces are rationing power to companies making more value added products. Assembling Apple are not much more value add than making shoes.
 
May 21, 2021
34
13
35
0
China is the most polluted place I’ve ever been. I spent a month in China back in 2007 visiting 3 different cities in 3 different regions. I only saw the sun for 1 day out of that month and it was for only 5 minutes until the pollution smothered the sun again. I can’t imagine how bad it must be 14 years later. And no it wasn’t just overcast all month, it was thick grey coal plant smoke and it consumed the sky. I’ve never seen anything like that before or since.
 

watzupken

Notable
Mar 16, 2020
497
208
1,070
1
China is the biggest emitter of CO2 should not come as a surprise. They are called the "factory of the world" and that itself means we shouldn't expect them to be sipping power. While you can argue that they can switch to cleaner power, which I believe they did by overdoing on hydro electricity, but otherwise, one of the reasons for manufacturing in China is because of cheap power, labour, and thus, lower cost. So with cost being one of the main driver, I doubt it will drive China to invest in cleaner power due to high initial cost.
 

watzupken

Notable
Mar 16, 2020
497
208
1,070
1
China is the most polluted place I’ve ever been. I spent a month in China back in 2007 visiting 3 different cities in 3 different regions. I only saw the sun for 1 day out of that month and it was for only 5 minutes until the pollution smothered the sun again. I can’t imagine how bad it must be 14 years later. And no it wasn’t just overcast all month, it was thick grey coal plant smoke and it consumed the sky. I’ve never seen anything like that before or since.
The severity of the smog issue depends on,
  1. Where you went? Beijing is usually one of the worst hit,
  2. When you went? The problem is more acute towards the end of the year when it gets colder and manufacturing activities at its highest .
In some areas, you can definitely see smog throughout the day, but it is not that bad to the point that I can't see the sun.
 
China is the most polluted place I’ve ever been. I spent a month in China back in 2007 visiting 3 different cities in 3 different regions. I only saw the sun for 1 day out of that month and it was for only 5 minutes until the pollution smothered the sun again. I can’t imagine how bad it must be 14 years later. And no it wasn’t just overcast all month, it was thick grey coal plant smoke and it consumed the sky. I’ve never seen anything like that before or since.
You haven't been back to China since 2007? You can't imagine how much better it has gotten since then. I went once every 2 years from 2009 to 2017, and I could see progress, especially in Beijing (the other place I visited regularly was Dalian, same thing):
  • dusty dumps and wild parking lots replaced with green spaces and young saplings
  • the smog that didn't allow you to see across the street simply disappeared - gone ! Pollution went from Mexico-like to Paris-like in less than a decade;
  • public transportation was already good, it got better;
  • many vehicles went from gas and diesel to propane and electric, especially taxis.
There's a reason why NASA recently thanked China : they actually managed to grow stuff in deserts, and substantial surfaces of it at that. And while China has the highest power consumption level in the world, it also has the highest population too - a Chinese uses 2.5 less carbon-based energy than a North American.
Pot, this is kettle.
 
Reactions: gargoylenest
May 21, 2021
34
13
35
0
The severity of the smog issue depends on,
  1. Where you went? Beijing is usually one of the worst hit,
  2. When you went? The problem is more acute towards the end of the year when it gets colder and manufacturing activities at its highest .
In some areas, you can definitely see smog throughout the day, but it is not that bad to the point that I can't see the sun.
You haven't been back to China since 2007? You can't imagine how much better it has gotten since then. I went once every 2 years from 2009 to 2017, and I could see progress, especially in Beijing (the other place I visited regularly was Dalian, same thing):
  • dusty dumps and wild parking lots replaced with green spaces and young saplings
  • the smog that didn't allow you to see across the street simply disappeared - gone ! Pollution went from Mexico-like to Paris-like in less than a decade;
  • public transportation was already good, it got better;
  • many vehicles went from gas and diesel to propane and electric, especially taxis.
There's a reason why NASA recently thanked China : they actually managed to grow stuff in deserts, and substantial surfaces of it at that. And while China has the highest power consumption level in the world, it also has the highest population too - a Chinese uses 2.5 less carbon-based energy than a North American.
Pot, this is kettle.
Sounds like someone is smoking that good CCP stuff. I went to Beijing, Shanghai, and
Xi’an (which was the worst, pollution in the sky wise, otherwise beautiful city) I went to China before the 2008 Olympics and where the CCP ordered to halt or reduce many polluting activities to give Beijing the best chance of looking less polluted for the olympics. And like I said it was bad that the sun couldn’t even break through the smog. Here is a picture from 2013 that sums up what I experienced. This is a real unaltered satellite photo of chinas smog problem from the NOAA.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.08bfd1d44fb5020ad909970c37b6fb56?rik=oWMGg+eq4/mbzA&riu=http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/526aab16ecad04a50948a0a6/chinas-smog-is-so-bad-you-can-see-it-from-space.jpg&ehk=j3zjGRMYdMq3PNGyklNGjMXoKOyXVIQKuh9wDhXHtcw=&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
 

gargoylenest

Prominent
Jan 13, 2020
54
44
560
0
Why am I the only one to be disturbed by the stats like : "China is the biggest polluter on the planet" well, its the most populous country on the planet accounting for 17% of the world population. While it is producing twice the pollution of the USA, it has 4.25 times the population of the USA... I am not saying China is green, but the USA should fix its own pollution problem before pointing fingers.
 
Reactions: mitch074
Sounds like someone is smoking that good CCP stuff. I went to Beijing, Shanghai, and
Xi’an (which was the worst, pollution in the sky wise, otherwise beautiful city) I went to China before the 2008 Olympics and where the CCP ordered to halt or reduce many polluting activities to give Beijing the best chance of looking less polluted for the olympics. And like I said it was bad that the sun couldn’t even break through the smog. Here is a picture from 2013 that sums up what I experienced. This is a real unaltered satellite photo of chinas smog problem from the NOAA.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.08bfd1d44fb5020ad909970c37b6fb56?rik=oWMGg+eq4/mbzA&riu=http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/526aab16ecad04a50948a0a6/chinas-smog-is-so-bad-you-can-see-it-from-space.jpg&ehk=j3zjGRMYdMq3PNGyklNGjMXoKOyXVIQKuh9wDhXHtcw=&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
Maybe I did, but then at least I went to check. If you want details, OK, let's got for details.
I did write that pollution in 2009 was VERY bad. In 2013 it was still bad (a day out meant that you'd cough black soot in the evening if it hadn't rained in the last 48 hours), in 2015 it was somewhat better (I stopped coughing up black soot in the evening), in 2017 the city didn't smell like dust anymore... And in 2019 I could actually get a big lungful without breaking into a coughing fit, eventhough it hadn't rained in weeks.
So, yeah, it got better. MUCH better. That and deserts going back to being green and the giant panda's status being lowered from "headed to extinction" to "vulnerable" in 20 years. How long did it take the USA to do the same for the bald eagle? From 1918 to 1995, if Wikipedia is to be believed.
 
Reactions: wr3zzz
Why am I the only one to be disturbed by the stats like : "China is the biggest polluter on the planet" well, its the most populous country on the planet accounting for 17% of the world population. While it is producing twice the pollution of the USA, it has 4.25 times the population of the USA... I am not saying China is green, but the USA should fix its own pollution problem before pointing fingers.
I did mention it, but then I got accused of being a Commie Kool-aid drinker. It makes discussion so enriching.
 
Reactions: gargoylenest

mrv_co

Honorable
Jan 18, 2016
95
37
10,560
0
This is a bit of a head-scratcher to figure out what China is actually trying to do, because it definitely has nothing to do with emissions, the environment, or energy usage. It will likely do net harm in those categories as it causes more work overall and spikes in energy usage tend to reduce efficiency.
The first question is: Can the lost work really be deferred to other days/shifts? Odds are that some factories are already running 24/7, and they will be hurt. China may be targeting those particular producers.

Another interesting aspect is: "Furthermore, enterprises paying more taxes .... will not be affected by power outages"
So this may be as simple as strong-armed mob style extortion. Or, possibly an effort to give an unfair competative edge to the companies controlled by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government seems to be becoming very unfriendly to foreign companies and ideas, particularly in tech. It would be wise for some of these companies to pull out gracefully before Xi decides to go smash-and-grab on their facilities and IP.

If its not already too late, that is. It has got to be very hard to withdraw investments from China ever since they seized control of Hong Kong and shut down the free market.
THG glossed over the punchline entirely... 'paying more taxes'. I suspect that the PRC will be happy to renegotiate any existing deals with western companies to qualify as a 'paying more taxes' entity.
 
May 21, 2021
34
13
35
0
Why am I the only one to be disturbed by the stats like : "China is the biggest polluter on the planet" well, its the most populous country on the planet accounting for 17% of the world population. While it is producing twice the pollution of the USA, it has 4.25 times the population of the USA... I am not saying China is green, but the USA should fix its own pollution problem before pointing fingers.
Well to be fair, economists agree that the proper way to judge pollution is compared to GDP, since the majority of pollution comes from manufacturing, whether it be direct by-products of manufacturing or the energy production that feeds the manufacturing. In this case the US produces 3 times less pollution per GDP dollar.
 

wr3zzz

Distinguished
Dec 31, 2007
59
15
18,535
0
THG glossed over the punchline entirely... 'paying more taxes'. I suspect that the PRC will be happy to renegotiate any existing deals with western companies to qualify as a 'paying more taxes' entity.
China's tax system is mostly VAT based so when Beijing audit provinces to improve their power efficiency in economic output one way to measure who is contributing more with their electricity is looking at the VAT collection. Some provinces ration power based on industry and some provinces ration by looking at VAT.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY