News Apple M1 Max Catches up to RX 6800M, RTX 3080 Mobile in GFXBench 5

Heat_Fan89

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These specs are all well and fine but it won't change anything regarding the top publishers bringing their games to the Mac. The Big publishers have so much invested in games that some big budget games are now pushing half a billion dollars. Those games are going to platforms with the largest audiences and those platforms are the consoles and PC's running Windows.

If Apple were to become serious and want those big budget AAA games, they'll need to develop middleware software to port those games to the hardware running Apple Silicon. It can be done but it will require they open their wallet and then convince the top publishers why it makes business sense to bring their games to the Mac. So far they only have interest on the TV side and their gaming interest is in Apple Arcade.
 

drtweak

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These specs are all well and fine but it won't change anything regarding the top publishers bringing their games to the Mac. The Big publishers have so much invested in games that some big budget games are now pushing half a billion dollars. Those games are going to platforms with the largest audiences and those platforms are the consoles and PC's running Windows.

If Apple were to become serious and want those big budget AAA games, they'll need to develop middleware software to port those games to the hardware running Apple Silicon. It can be done but it will require they open their wallet and then convince the top publishers why it makes business sense to bring their games to the Mac. So far they only have interest on the TV side and their gaming interest is in Apple Arcade.

True but I think with most App Store apps most compatible with M1, I don't think they will care. Unless apple make them go through the app store as well (Wouldn't be surprised) why would the developers go through the trouble of porting the game to one of the smallest gaming OSes for normal desktop gaming and have to share the profits? Sounds like Windows and Linux is the way for them to stick to it.
 
Oct 20, 2021
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True but I think with most App Store apps most compatible with M1, I don't think they will care. Unless apple make them go through the app store as well (Wouldn't be surprised) why would the developers go through the trouble of porting the game to one of the smallest gaming OSes for normal desktop gaming and have to share the profits? Sounds like Windows and Linux is the way for them to stick to it.
It'd make more sense if Windows and Linux started supporting the M1 Max where you could dual-boot. Then opening up DX or the other gaming apis would be much easier.

But I think the point is being missed here - an arm apu built for the consumer market (granted- the rich consumer market) just went head to head with a dedicated gpu. That's pretty cool. Will it bring enough attention to finally say "oh yeah ARM is now in competition" (like they've been touting for decades)? Ehhh... maybe.
 

JamesJones44

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True but I think with most App Store apps most compatible with M1, I don't think they will care. Unless apple make them go through the app store as well (Wouldn't be surprised) why would the developers go through the trouble of porting the game to one of the smallest gaming OSes for normal desktop gaming and have to share the profits? Sounds like Windows and Linux is the way for them to stick to it.
The App Store is not required on macOS. You can load from anywhere, even Steam.

macOS's market share has steadily risen over the past decade from sub 5% to 10% world wide while Windows share has fallen 15%. In the US it's more drastic, macOS is up to 26% share and Windows down to 61%. It's not a stretch to think that if Apple does start to produce hardware that can outperform Win-A-Tel that shift will start to accelerate drawing in game developers. It's also worth noting that among developers in general the market share is roughly 60% Windows 40% macOS. This is a massive increase from 10 years ago.

I'm not saying game devs will jump on board overnight, but it's not a stretch to believe they will stop ignoring the platform if they think they can reach enough of an audience.
 
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JamesJones44

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Just wait for TSMC to open up that node to AMD and Intel, and perhaps Nvidia, should be interesting to say the least.
The issue is Apple paid a large sum to have exclusive access to TSMC's latest nodes. As everyone transitions to 5nm, M2 or whatever Apple ends up call it will be on the 3nm node. That will give Apple the advantage of always being ahead of those companies in terms of node size until that agreement ends or someone catches up and/or passes TSMC.
 
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GFXBench shouldn't be used to be honest. The problem is that you can only use Metal on Apple's OSes. And GFXBench states they're using Metal.

For the Windows side of things, Aztec is the only test that uses DX12 and Vulkan. The others use OpenGL or DirectX 11, except on Apple's OS, where Metal is used. This right here is not even a fair comparison as Metal is a low-overhead API.

See https://gfxbench.com/benchmark.jsp

Also there's the question of just how much of a graphics load GFXBench is doing. FPSes in the 200+ region sounds more like it's a CPU bound test.
 

artk2219

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Hmm, Apple game console...wouldn't surprise me if we see that in a short while.
They tried that in the 90's with the pippin, and it didnt work out well since apple's "features" dont mesh well with a console audience. Not everyone wants an expensive console with a limited supply of games and hardware restrictions.
 
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artk2219

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It'd make more sense if Windows and Linux started supporting the M1 Max where you could dual-boot. Then opening up DX or the other gaming apis would be much easier.

But I think the point is being missed here - an arm apu built for the consumer market (granted- the rich consumer market) just went head to head with a dedicated gpu. That's pretty cool. Will it bring enough attention to finally say "oh yeah ARM is now in competition" (like they've been touting for decades)? Ehhh... maybe.
It's not really an issue with Microsoft or Linux allowing dual boot on an M1 equipped mac, its an issue with Apple giving up enough control and having enough support to allow it on their hardware again. They want that garden walled off and closed with them being the only gardeners and everyone else is a paying guest that can never leave.
 

Eximo

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They tried that in the 90's with the pippin, and it didnt work out well since apple's "features" dont mesh well with a console audience. Not everyone wants an expensive console with a limited supply of games and hardware restrictions.
Not a fair comparison. There are millions of gamers running on iOS today, ready made audience who are familiar with the ecosystem, even playing fairly advanced titles already.

Not that you can't just hook a phone or tablet up to a TV. Adding gaming to the Apple TV would seem a logical choice.
 
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artk2219

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Not a fair comparison. There are millions of gamers running on iOS today, ready made audience who are familiar with the ecosystem, even playing fairly advanced titles already.

Not that you can't just hook a phone or tablet up to a TV. Adding gaming to the Apple TV would seem a logical choice.
Fair enough, but i still feel that the mobile phone gaming market is very much a different beast when compared to the at home console market, and I'm not entirely sure that apple could make the changes they need to navigate that market well and compete with Microsoft, Nintendo, and sony, not to mention just standard PC gaming. I most definitely could be wrong, and they could have a device that everyone goes crazy for while not playing the nicest with the devs, but it also wouldnt be the first time that Apple has failed in that market, or any market really. I guess the proof of the pudding would have to be in the eating.
 

JamesJones44

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Fair enough, but i still feel that the mobile phone gaming market is very much a different beast when compared to the at home console market, and I'm not entirely sure that apple could make the changes they need to navigate that market well and compete with Microsoft, Nintendo, and sony, not to mention just standard PC gaming. I most definitely could be wrong, and they could have a device that everyone goes crazy for while not playing the nicest with the devs, but it also wouldnt be the first time that Apple has failed in that market, or any market really. I guess the proof of the pudding would have to be in the eating.
I agree 100% on this. I just had this conversation with someone yesterday, the home console market is a very different beast than Mobile and in some respects even PC gaming. I don't think you can really compare them.

Nintendo is already kind of an Apple like company in the home console space. They usually don't have the best console for the price as far as hardcore gamers are concerned, but the game catalog makes them viable. Apple doesn't have that game catalog to draw on and porting mobile games doesn't work, we've seen it tried with the Apple TV and Android TV with limited success. Apple would first need to step in with some game exclusives and build out if they were to have a chance in my opinion.
 

Heat_Fan89

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Not a fair comparison. There are millions of gamers running on iOS today, ready made audience who are familiar with the ecosystem, even playing fairly advanced titles already.

Not that you can't just hook a phone or tablet up to a TV. Adding gaming to the Apple TV would seem a logical choice.
If you are suggesting that Apple enter the console space based on their iOS games business, that would not be a wise move for Apple. They would lose massively. It is better for them to invest and find a way to bring more Publishers onboard with Apple Silicon with the Mac.

The console space is a totally different animal that is controlled by the big 3: Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo. With the exception of Nintendo the console hardware business is a money loser and Apple based on their business model, does not like to lose money and they would have to accept that. They would also have to concede any idea of an Apple tax. So an Apple console can not cost anymore than a Sony or Microsoft console.

That’s problem #1, now they have to convince gamers to add another console to their list. Apple would also have to offer games that are not on any other platform. So does Apple create a games studio to make games? Do they buy up studios? The console business is a massive investment. It took Microsoft and the Xbox brand close to 20 yrs to become a household name and they have dumped 100’s of billions of dollars just to get where they are and Sony is still the preferred global brand. Microsoft still trails them.
 
If you are suggesting that Apple enter the console space based on their iOS games business, that would not be a wise move for Apple. They would lose massively. It is better for them to invest and find a way to bring more Publishers onboard with Apple Silicon with the Mac.

The console space is a totally different animal that is controlled by the big 3: Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo. With the exception of Nintendo the console hardware business is a money loser and Apple based on their business model, does not like to lose money and they would have to accept that. They would also have to concede any idea of an Apple tax. So an Apple console can not cost anymore than a Sony or Microsoft console.

That’s problem #1, now they have to convince gamers to add another console to their list. Apple would also have to offer games that are not on any other platform. So does Apple create a games studio to make games? Do they buy up studios? The console business is a massive investment. It took Microsoft and the Xbox brand close to 20 yrs to become a household name and they have dumped 100’s of billions of dollars just to get where they are and Sony is still the preferred global brand. Microsoft still trails them.
I disagree that they would lose massively. At worst it'd just be blip on their bottom line.

They don't have to make any new hardware. Or at least they just continue on with their Apple TV line. Make it compatible with Bluetooth controllers and boom, they have a console. If you think this idea is silly, NVIDIA basically made the Android version of this and the best NVIDIA could offer outside of standard Android games was its cloud service (which is on iOS).

The only real problem here iOS doesn't have much in the way of a killer app for gaming and a majority of the games are designed with a touch screen in mind. But the latter could just be a chicken/egg problem.
 
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Well I'm not surprised since Apple has a contract with Imagination Technologies GPU new IP. They demonstrated the ability to surpass Intel and AMD iGPU every now and then using less than half the wattage. Sad thing is they refuse to compete in PC gaming cards and no third party wants to license their IP to do the same. It's a lot easier than any startup coming up with their own tech. Now that manufacturing has been disrupted, it pretty much doesn't matter unless 3D printing fabrication makes a breakthrough and away from the commercial industry.
 
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missingxtension

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A chipset is nothing without drivers, so we'll never have an actual comparison of real hardware. Anytime a trusted review site test a system, they run on the closest possible configuration. You can run windows and unless they run a macos 3080, amd, or what ever chip the comparison doesn't stack up.
IOS will never be a credible gaming platform, 100 percent of their games have a major defect. They have touch screen controls, anyone buying a gaming phone for gaming is absurd. Now buying it for the specs, I believe it. The camera is a secondary issue, that is only a reviewer issue. It gives them content.
 
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A chipset is nothing without drivers, so we'll never have an actual comparison of real hardware. Anytime a trusted review site test a system, they run on the closest possible configuration. You can run windows and unless they run a macos 3080, amd, or what ever chip the comparison doesn't stack up.
IOS will never be a credible gaming platform, 100 percent of their games have a major defect. They have touch screen controls, anyone buying a gaming phone for gaming is absurd. Now buying it for the specs, I believe it. The camera is a secondary issue, that is only a reviewer issue. It gives them content.
Of course gamers don't buy expensive smartphones to game but most won't pay $3000+ for the gaming cards either. I'd assume most people would drop both when push comes to shove. GPU jam may last all decade so who knows how the industry will react.
 
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Heat_Fan89

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I disagree that they would lose massively. At worst it'd just be blip on their bottom line.

They don't have to make any new hardware. Or at least they just continue on with their Apple TV line. Make it compatible with Bluetooth controllers and boom, they have a console. If you think this idea is silly, NVIDIA basically made the Android version of this and the best NVIDIA could offer outside of standard Android games was its cloud service (which is on iOS).

The only real problem here iOS doesn't have much in the way of a killer app for gaming and a majority of the games are designed with a touch screen in mind. But the latter could just be a chicken/egg problem.
Except we are discussing games that are on the PS5 and the Xbox Series consoles. Games such as God of War, Halo, Call of Duty, Far Cry, GTA. Those types of games and enticing the big publishers to port their games to the Mac. The Shield, Apple TV, those are based mostly on touch games.

Developing a console to compete with the big 3 is a non starter because the market is already saturated. Sure Apple has the money but they would primarily be appealing to their core base who already own their products. The console business is all about the games and the trend seems to be buyouts and takeovers by both Sony and Microsoft.

The console business is tough to gain traction as we have seen how long it took Microsoft to get where they currently are. It’s better for Apple to entice publishers to bring games over to the Mac rather than design and release a new console. If the console is any more than what Sony and MS are charging it will be an almost instant failure.

Look at Sega with their back catalog library of games. They gave up in early 2000’s. It’s a really tough business. I don't see Apple having any success.
 

Giroro

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I don't think Apple cares about gaming on mac.
They care about convincing art students that Photoshop can't run on a PC.

And by "care" I mean that in the sense that Mac's impact on Apple's bottom line is barely more than a rounding error right now.
 
So apple just used all cards that they could, and made a chip that is close to critical size now. As I thought single core did not budge, its ARM so they cannot rise IPC. This is best m1 lineup will go EXCEPT moving to new nodes on tsmc. Feels like they were desperate to do so many things people wanted at once.
 

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