News Apple to Buy 3D NAND Memory from Chinese YMTC

[Admin]

YMTC becomes a 3D NAND flash memory supplier for Apple's products.

Apple to Buy 3D NAND Memory from Chinese YMTC : Read more

 

[cyrusfox]

I don't understand at all how they can possibly be cost competitive with the big NAND makers (Hynix + Solidigm, Samsung, Micron, Kioxia).

The issue I see is they are stacking 2 wafers together, one with the CMOS logic, the other with the memory array. That is double the wafer cost of all the competitors. What are the benefits of separating memory cells from logic? Faster cadence of improvements on either component? From what I understand xtacking bonding/stacking a whole wafer, I could easily see the benefit if we are stacking individual dies.

Getting the apple seal of approval is a big deal though, and congrats to them.

 

[4m12020]

I don't understand at all how they can possibly be cost competitive with the big NAND makers (Hynix + Solidigm, Samsung, Micron, Kioxia).

YMTC isn't cost competitive, but their government has subsidized them to the tune of $24B to date. This funding has enabled YMTC to exist and build fabs where a normal free market company would have folded long ago. They also have predatory pricing and undercut the industry so they can take market share (which is illegal). This type of mercantilism really distorts the market and is a huge threat to South Korea as a country.

People cry foul against these export bans against China because it doesn't uphold true free market principles, but the reason the export bans exist is because China isn't upholding free market principles.

 

[Support_Lemon]

China isn't upholding free market principles.

How else can China compete? Allowing their economy to develop organically won't work in a million years. They are no different from the Japanese in the 1970s/80s, and the Koreans/Taiwanese in the 80s/90s. Heavy handed subsidies, and state intervention built the Asian Tigers. China is simply copying their neighbors (South Korean companies like Samsung and SK Hynix received copious amounts of subsidies when they first started out, it was never an even playing field for Chinese companies).

 

[setx]

It's pretty funny how ignorant people here about current state of NAND production: https://semianalysis.substack.com/p/2022-nand-process-technology-comparison

 

[zval]

I don't understand at all how they can possibly be cost competitive with the big NAND makers

If YMTC somehow manages to simplify other processes, wafer-to-wafer bonding could become cost-effective. The cost of the pure silicon wafer only accounts for a small portion of the total cost. According to a video by Dr. Ian Cutress, the cost of a raw silicon wafer is around 100-400 USD, while the total manufacturing cost for a 14nm wafer is more than 10,000 USD. So even if YMTC uses 2x raw silicon wafers, the raw material cost is still well less than 10% of the total cost.

The benefit of wafer-to-wafer bonding will become more apparent as the number of vertical stacking layers increases, according to YMTC's recent presentation at FMS 2022. Interesingly, Samsung also puts wafer-to-wafer bonding in their NAND process roadmap for 2025:

 

[4m12020]

How else can China compete?

They don’t “compete” on NAND…that’s the problem, they undercut everyone. It’s illegal to implement predatory pricing in every industry. That’s not competition, it’s economic warfare. They’ll have equipment bans imposed on them and will have to develop that industry while their NAND business will be forced to shutdown. And their government will say it’s unfair.

 

[escksu]

They don’t “compete” on NAND…that’s the problem, they undercut everyone. It’s illegal to implement predatory pricing in every industry. That’s not competition, it’s economic warfare. They’ll have equipment bans imposed on them and will have to develop that industry while their NAND business will be forced to shutdown. And their government will say it’s unfair.

Illegal?? Whose law?? I do agree its illegal within a country but thats about it. Its a free world out there and anyone is free to undercut anyone and everyone. Of course you are free not to buy.

 

[4m12020]

Illegal?? Whose law?? I do agree its illegal within a country but thats about it. Its a free world out there and anyone is free to undercut anyone and everyone. Of course you are free not to buy.

The WTO GATT

 

[saywhat?]

In effect, Apple is being subsidized by China to the extent that they use YMTC NAND. Of course, they are being subsidized already with other components and manufacturing.

But don't tell anyone....

 

[saywhat?]

Atleast they provide subsidised product which lower the products price and be competitive unlike US that only know to play cheat by create law out of no where to blacklist company and stifling innovation

"create law of out of nowhere to blacklist company and stifling innovation"?!
lol... While it is true that corporate theft and state subsidies have existed in many places and times, the Chinese have made a blatant art form out of them and the way they take over sectors using those techniques. That is what stifles innovation more than anything.

 

[systemBuilder_49]

Good thing Apple is buying NOTHING from American companies. Good thing they are buying from the #1 product dumping company in the NAND space. Good thing we are STILL giving China Most Favored Nation trade status even though they moved beyond 3rd world status 10Y ago! Good thing the USA looks the other way and WTO GATT Anti-dumping agreements are NEVER enforced! When China attacks the USA in a few years with it's homegrown semiconductor industry I want Tim Cook to be an infantryman at the front lines when the nukes start to fall ...

 

[cyrusfox]

the cost of a raw silicon wafer is around 100-400 USD, while the total manufacturing cost for a 14nm wafer is more than 10,000 USD

You got your manufactured wafer cost off by a factor of 10... Maybe for logic but for NAND manufacturing its more in the $700-$2000 range per finished wafer. So an extra $100 prime wafer cost is significant.

 

[Ligo14]

YMTC isn't cost competitive, but their government has subsidized them to the tune of $24B to date. This funding has enabled YMTC to exist and build fabs where a normal free market company would have folded long ago. They also have predatory pricing and undercut the industry so they can take market share (which is illegal). This type of mercantilism really distorts the market and is a huge threat to South Korea as a country.

People cry foul against these export bans against China because it doesn't uphold true free market principles, but the reason the export bans exist is because China isn't upholding free market principles.

Your (South Korean) industry was built the same way - heavy government subsidies (pretty much all chaebols had that) and tech sharing. Even nowadays your government still has a big hand in the industrial sector with the new semiconductor acts (large subsidies), pardoning important executives to boost competitiveness, etc. Funny to see you complaining when other people take notes from your playbook, lol.