Are 10,000 rpm drives worth the cost?

[geofelt]

Can the Momentus XTs be put into a desktop OK? Not sure they would be compatible with the M/B, SATA II.. Like the sound of them...

Response from Flightsim community is that I won't see much performance increase getting 10000rpm drives over 7200., though tha's opinion thus far, no facts to say why. If the same exe file is being read so fast and so often, I'd have thought a drive with an access time of 7ms would be an advantage over one of 15ms..

I would consider the flightsim community as a more credible and experienced source of advice.

The momentus is a standard 2.5" drive. You can use a 2.5 to 3.5 adapter if your case does not supply 2.5" mounting. The sata and power connections look the same to me as any ssd.

The value of raid-1 and it's variants like raid-5 for protecting data is that you can recover from a hard drive failure quickly.
It is for servers that can't afford any down time.
Recovery from a hard drive failure is just moments.
Fortunately hard drives do not fail often.
Mean time to failure is claimed to be on the order of 1,000,000 hours.(100 years)
Raid-1 does not protect you from other types of losses such as viruses,
software errors,raid controller failure, operator error, or fire...etc.
For that, you need EXTERNAL backup.
If you have external backup, and can afford some recovery time, then you don't need raid-1.

 

[martinlest]

No RAID was just a convenience, but I wouldn't use it with Velociraptor drives, a bit of an expensive luxury. I have good backups in any case.

Well, I consider myself 'Flight Simulator Community' too - been doing it for 10 years, and create files/airports/aircraft/scenery for myself, uploaded to the net. There are reasons I do not agree with the verdict 'you'll see no difference' - some agree with me, others not. Up to me whether I put my money where my mouth is I suppose!!

 

[martinlest]

"No, RAID was just a convenience ... " that is!

 

[martinlest]

One option, how about this? Since Overclockers do not have the Seagate Momentus XT drives, order the PC with a 60GB SSD drive for Windows 7 but no other hard drives. Then buy two Seagate Momentus XTs and fit them myself. Do people generally agree that these 2.5" drives would be good in this system? Reviews seem to indicate this would be fine.

 

[martinlest]

OK, may be talking to myself by this time (thanks for the great input here everyone - it's very helpful). One more (last?) suggestion: I get the PC with an Intel X25-M Mainstream 80GB SSD and have Windows 7 x64, default Flight Simulator 9 and default Flight Simulator X installations on that drive (c.20GBs needed for Win7, <5GBs for FS9 and <15GBs for FSX, so I'd have 40GBs free approx.) and then two SATA 7200 rpm drives to put all the 3rd. party Flightsim data files (can be hundreds of GBs). Sound OK? Thanks for your patience..

 

[geofelt]

OK, may be talking to myself by this time (thanks for the great input here everyone - it's very helpful). One more (last?) suggestion: I get the PC with an Intel X25-M Mainstream 80GB SSD and have Windows 7 x64, default Flight Simulator 9 and default Flight Simulator X installations on that drive (c.20GBs needed for Win7, <5GBs for FS9 and <15GBs for FSX, so I'd have 40GBs free approx.) and then two SATA 7200 rpm drives to put all the 3rd. party Flightsim data files (can be hundreds of GBs). Sound OK? Thanks for your patience..

80gb Intel ssd is a safe choice for a os and apps drive.

Past that, I think there will not be that much difference with the momentus. It's value comes from what the 4gb cache can hold. If you access the full 500gb of the drive, not much will stay in the cache. Perhaps you can put those smaller volatile files on the SSD also. As to the bulk of other data, I agree with the 600gb raptor.

 

[martinlest]

If I get 2 x 80GB SSDs my budget isn't going to stretch to Velociraptors too unfortunately. It's either 2 x 80GB SSDs and 2 x Seagate Barracudas (7200.12 1TB each) or 2 x Velociraptors. Not sure which to go for!!

 

[nforce4max]

I would go for the SSD and forget about the 10krpm raptors as they aren't worth it. Most normal hard drives are good enough for read depending on the game and app but its pagefile that sucks the most. If you don't got 12gb of ram or more then you are stuck with it slowing down your rig. So go SSD at the very least as a paging drive.

 

[martinlest]

Can't help feeling using a SSD as a paging file is dramatically going to shorten its life - all those writes!!

Martin

 

[nforce4max]

Can't help feeling using a SSD as a paging file is dramatically going to shorten its life - all those writes!!

Martin

It is going to fail anyway as a boot drive being that is ware the pagefile is by default with the os. Killing a SSD over two or three is years is better than losing the boot or a media drive when used as a paging drive. If only for paging don't aim for a high SSD as most are quick enough any way as pagefile uses 4k random read and writes. That is ware mechanical drives suck the most so it is no wonder why SSD is as fast as it is. Ram drives are faster still. I created a small ram drive using the system ram on my workstation and got 2gbs sequential read in HDtune. I really want that drive from OZC but I don't have $10k usd to spend on it.

 

[RetiredChief]

Try this out for size.
(1) SSD - Get one now, and a 2nd one latter. I'd skip the Intel G2 80 gigs (I HAVE), They are yesterdays news in performance and cost almost as much as newer SSDs in the area of 100->120 Gig. Look for the SF1200 controller.

(2) two 7200 RPM HDDs - I would skip the -12s, not as reliable as Spinpoint F3 or WD Black. On WD blks: The Sata 6 model = No, Only performance gain over the Sata 3 is in Burst speed. (PS I have one)

From one of my earlier posts on SSD performance.
Crucial RealSSD C300 – Shows comparission between C300 on Sata 3 vs Sata 6, Vortex-2 and Intel G2. ONLY if planning on Sata 6 controller
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/the-ssd-diaries-crucials-realssd-c300
G.Skill Phoenix Pro - Came out after C300 review. (Almost Identical is Corsair Force F120)
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=25198
Votex-2

You would probably be happy with any of the above models - Look for sales, I just picked up the G.Skill Phoenix pro for $250 (less than the non pro model) arrived last night. You would not believe How quickly I imaged the Intel G2 and installed on the GSkill (and resized the partition)
My Bench check: Random 4 K Reads = 27.4 (1.27), Writes = 62.9 (1.96) Nrs in () are for my 1 TB WD Blk Sata 6 drive on Sata 6 controller)

Stay away from:
Western digital Blue, Kingston value products and Dane-Elec (They advertized an Intel 80 gig – They forgot to mention it is the OLD G1). Make sure you check Reviews.

Final word - Understand, you pay in pounds what we pay in dollars = About a 1.5 x markup (approx). But remember that old saying "don't be penny wise and pound foolish", or in this case buy what you will later regreat.

Added:
Don't sweat the page file, But I would set the Min-Max to the same value which prevents the Expanding/shringing issue. I would disable Hybernation.
On trim. I'm not sure, but some of the SF1200 SSDs internally employ a raid0 configuration (ie 120 Gig drive is 2 60 gig drives in raid0) therefor may not use win7 Trim cmd ?? - But their "garbage collect" functions the same as trim.

 

[martinlest]

OK, my head's really spinning now!! Thank for all the suggestions. You know how it is though, what you read in one forum is contradicted in another. That's par for the course, but after a couple of days I am starting to get overkill!!

My current line of thinking is (thanks again for your patience!!): Get overclockers.co.uk to fit a 60GB Corsair Force SSDD (SF-1200 I think, no?) for the O/S,Win7 x64, and at the same time, as overclockers are more expensive and don't have the larger capacity SSDs in any case, myself buy a 120GB Corsair Force SSD from Amazon or wherever (c.£225 sterling at the moment), instead of the Intel. That would be big enough for Flight Simulator, once I remove the huge 3rd. party addon folders, which I willput onto one of two 1TB SATA drives I will also get: they offer the Seagates as standard and from what I read (reviews here and elsewhere) they are pretty good: one of those areas where opinions differ online.

Martin

 

[RetiredChief]

My experience – No diff I have bought Seagate’s almost exclusively (prior to the debacle with the -11s) I then switched to the WD 640 blks. Recently bought a Seagate 1 TB (Not sure which model) and a WD Blk 1 TB Sata 6 drive.
However I cannot ignore the MUCH higher dissatisfaction (1/2 eggs) for the -12 vs the F3 and WD. This is based on a rather large number of responses. The number of defective units due to UPS playing drop kick with packages should be about the same.

 

[martinlest]

Well, I want to order tomorrow so I have to make a decision! I will get 1 x 60GB Crosair Force for the OS and 1 x 120 GB same for Flight Simulator. My choice now is for the SATA drives. I sort of prefer 2 x 1GB than 1 x 2GBs and the Samsung Spinpoint F4 only has a 2TB (or 1.5TB) version or a 320GB version. The latter is 7200rpm, the former 5400rpm. Frankly 2 x 320GBs would be more than I need. Or there's a 1TB SpinPoint F3. Is the f$ a real step up? My choice would be 2 x F4 320 GBs. Any dissenters? Thank you again.

 

[RetiredChief]

Here's one review of the 1 TB F3
qoute
There’s only one way to say it – the Samsung Spinpoint F3 is the fastest hard disk drive we’ve ever had the pleasure of testing here at bit-tech, having ripped through our benchmarks like a butchers knife through wet loo roll.

End quote
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/storage/2009/10/06/samsung-spinpoint-f3-1tb-review/10

You choose, Never look back, and enjoy. Like picking a blond over a redhead

 

[martinlest]

Nice! Well, I'll see what overclockers have in stock and try for a Spinpoint F4 or F3. Will post back (after all this!!) and say what I have finally ordered. I'm sure you can't wait to find out (LOL)..

Martin

 

[Guest]

Quick Input

1) Raid sucks, always has and always will unless you use a dedicated Raid adapter, onboard raid0 arrays are more trouble than they are worth..

2) Velociraptors are not worth the money, fast 1tb drives will be as good.

3) SSD drive is the best and only option you should be looking at if you are serious about FSX. Trust me when I say it is HDD intensive, especially if you have loads of mesh mods..

4) I did not get to see your screen resolution, but you want more than the 460 if you are gaming above 1680x1050, for sure for the best experience of multiple monitors, and ATi eyefinity solutions are the best for Multi screen FSX setup (5850 is minimum to be fair for 19x12 setups) Your CPU will rock FSX

5) Dont worry about size of SSD, get 120GB SSD and a good 1tb HDD 120gb is enough for OS, Apps and FSX, 1tb for other large games less load screen intensive and storage.. Bear in mind MMO (WoW, Lotro, EVE, ect) are loving ssd as well, my microstutter has gone since the stepup)

Best of luck

 

[JackNaylorPE]

That Caviar Black HDD is the best access times you'll probably get for the money along with a large amount of storage. In all honestly the difference between that Caviar Black and the Raptor will be barely noticeable, along with much more storage space. I would say if you're not going SSD, save money and stick with you're average 7200 rpm HDD.

The Raptor (WD6000HLHX-$270) is 1.7 times as fast as the fastest Black (WD2001FASS-$175) in access time ... but I still wouldn't buy it

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-3.5-desktop-hard-drive-charts/h2benchw-3.12-Read-Access-Time,1007.html


My Palm Treo 650 had a neat little utility on it called PowerRun which would let you store applications on the SD card instead of main memory. When launching an app, PR would swap the program off the card into main memory while you were running it and then swap it back when you closed it. Seems an enterprising young programmer could produce a Win7 based utility which would take a game off a HD and "swap" all it's files to the SSD, keep it there while playing, and then swap it back upon closing. I dunno just how "observable" the performance difference might be but I's bet gaming enthusiasts scrambling to buy the thing like a Quake Power-Up Sure seems like a nice way to get by with 400 GB of game files and an 80 GB SSD.

 

[nforce4max]

The Raptor (WD6000HLHX-$270) is 1.7 times as fast as the fastest Black (WD2001FASS-$175) in access time ... but I still wouldn't buy it

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-3.5-desktop-hard-drive-charts/h2benchw-3.12-Read-Access-Time,1007.html


My Palm Treo 650 had a neat little utility on it called PowerRun which would let you store applications on the SD card instead of main memory. When launching an app, PR would swap the program off the card into main memory while you were running it and then swap it back when you closed it. Seems an enterprising young programmer could produce a Win7 based utility which would take a game off a HD and "swap" all it's files to the SSD, keep it there while playing, and then swap it back upon closing. I dunno just how "observable" the performance difference might be but I's bet gaming enthusiasts scrambling to buy the thing like a Quake Power-Up Sure seems like a nice way to get by with 400 GB of game files and an 80 GB SSD.

The problem is writes and nothing out there is fast enough or durable to sustain such use for long except for ram drives. A mobile app that is only a few MB is one thing. Remember the weakness of SSD is read/write cycle. It has improved a lot since the 90s but it has some way to go but if the quality is high it should last long enough to survive to be a museum piece.

 

[martinlest]

Thanks both. Yes, I know FSX is HDD intensive - I have it but never fly it, my FS9 setup is the result of years of tweaking and adding stuff - it accounts for 99% of my flighta. GS9 is also HDD intensive, as can be seen from Process Monitor.

I've had excellent results (in XP 32-bit) at 1920x1200 resolution with a Core Duo T7500 CPU (2.20GHz) and an nVidia GeForce 8700M GT GPU. FS is very CPU centred - I am pretty sure that the 460GTX will be fine (I read reviews and many comments from FS users saying it's great for them), especially in FS9. I use two monitors, one for FS and the other showing FSNavigator - won't ever be piling up multi-monitors. In any case. got to stop spending at some point o the 470 is almost £100 more than the 460. By the time I need something better than the 460 GTX, there will be something way better than the 470 available, that's for sure!!

HDD I'm trying for 2 x Corsair Force SSDs (60GB and 120GB) and 2 x Samsung Spinpoint F3s or F4s..

Reckon, together with the CPU at 5.00GHz, this is going to be a huge improvement on my present rig.. (Oh God, don't let it be a disappointment!!!)..

 

[martinlest]

"GS9" typo for FS9 of course!!

 

[swifty_morgan]

I would go for the SSD and forget about the 10krpm raptors as they aren't worth it. Most normal hard drives are good enough for read depending on the game and app but its pagefile that sucks the most. If you don't got 12gb of ram or more then you are stuck with it slowing down your rig. So go SSD at the very least as a paging drive.

I don't allow page filing/virtual ram on my main drives. I have a small, separate, empty drive for that.

 

[nforce4max]

I don't allow page filing/virtual ram on my main drives. I have a small, separate, empty drive for that.

The small drive has to be of equal or greater performance of the boot or the media drive ware the app is located or you are at a loss performance. I suggest a small but middle of the road SSD. Ramdrive is much different as there is several times. The one that I used was located in system ram. It achieved 2gb/s sequential read/write

 

[martinlest]

OK - it's ordered. Hard drive wise I have gone for:

1 x Corsair Force 60GB F60 SSD for Windows 7 x64
1 x Corsair 120GB Force SSD for FlightSim#
2 x Samsung SpinPoint F3 1TB

Hope this will be OK!

Thanks for the suggestions,

Martin

 

[martinlest]

Hours and hours of reading stuff online, people's comments here and in other forums, some product knowledge, knowledge of requirements of MS Flight Simulator & what is important for it to run well...