Are people getting spoiled?

TKS

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Ahh...I remember the days of the 4MB Video card...where shotgunning video cards was the way to go for performance...when shotgunning two 14.4baud modems was leet and Commander Keen was the game of choice.

My question is...are people nowadays being spoiled by their instantaneous texture enhanced 256MB DDR2 vid cards? Sure they're nice to have...but I think people are starting to take them for granted and don't know where graphics have come from.

For example, I've seen a couple of threads at other forums about the GF2 GTS card being a "piece of crap" and "not even a good card when it was first put out." Now I know some of you are saying, well it's probably from someone who is too young to remember and doesn't even own one....and you're right...they don't know squat about it and they are probably too young. And back in the days of posting on a BBS, when someone didn't know anything about the topic....the person shut the hell up and didn't 'act' like they knew what they were talking about. I guess back when the net was new, one wasn't instantly a pseudo-expert on vid cards...but nowadays, everone is a self described guru of 3D.

It kinda makes me sick...I only know a handful of people in this forum that I would even consider knowledgeable enough to talk to about video cards...but I see threads everyday where people mimic those handful of people who know what they are talking about. They just repeat what was told to them...there is no originality left over...all of the themes have been used up and turned into theme parks...hell even that last line about the theme parks I got from a movie...what does this tell us? We are endangered right now...the 3d community as a whole and the integrity of the knowledge we harbor.

We are in danger of losing our creativity and originality. I challenge each and everyone of you to no longer operate your computer with your head crammed inside your (brace yourself GW) anus and snap out of the funk that you all have been operating in. Don't pretend that you know something you don't. Admit things when you are wrong (<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=371199#371199" target="_new">I did</A>) and don't assume you have it all figured out. When you see something for the truth...guard that truth and don't defile it by warping it into something you can use just for the sake of winning an argument. Take a good long hard look at yourself and find out what type of person you are when it comes to the graphics community. I hope that someday everyone will be ranked with that handful of people I know of today. But remember that knowlede and experience are not directly proportional...but knowledge, <i>comprehension</i>, and experience <b>are</b>.

Regards,

TKS

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<b>I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman! </b> <i>Homer Simpson</i>
 

GeneticWeapon

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Nice post:)
Not too long ago, some guy posted on here calling the Kyro line of cards crap, and admitted he didnt know anything about them....I totally went off on him. Spoiled we have indeed become, and people who are only just entering into this hobby of ours are extremely disrespectful of past technology. I entered into this hobby during the VooDoo/TnT days, back when things were golden, and I didnt notice poor fps.
It doesnt seem like all that long ago. I'm old.

<b>I help because you suck</b>
 

coolsquirtle

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the thing is...... there are too many people with 9800pros here........ therefore.....
Story #1
"oh i have a GF2 MX400"
"that sucks arse, get a R9600pro or 9800 non-pro"
"But i'm poor"
"then get a Ti4200!"
"i can't afford that"
"YES U CAN IT'S ONLY $80US"
"but i live in erjhklkuojkl; and Ti4200 costs an arm and a leg here"
"awww that's too bad GET A Ti4200 ANYWAYS"

Story 2
"Hey guys i just got a FX5600Ultra"
"that sucks arse, get a R9600pro"
"but"
"NO BUTS! GET A R9600pro!! cause all FX sucks arse"
"but according to the benchmarks, FX5600Ultra is just 10-15 frames behind in most games"
"NO WAY! MY R9600PRO OWNS U! GET A R9600pro or u're a stupid troll"

Story #3
"I was wondering why my FX5200 is so crappy"
"cause it sucks ARSE! get a R9600pro or Ti4200"
"i can't afford that"
"YES U CAN!"

Story #4
"hey guys should i upgrade my Ti4200?"
"YA! just a R9600pro"
"but i'll spend $200 for only 20-30 frames inprovement"
"GOOD ENOUGH! GO GET A R9600pro! NOW!!!"

doesn't these stories teach u things?

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
bring it fanATics~~ nVidia PWNS all!
SCREW aBOX! LONG LIVE nBOX!!
 

speeduk

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I expected big things this year. What happened? An overclocked 9700pro came out (9800pro) and then a super overclocked 9700pro came out (9800xt). In one year I went from a 64mb ati ddr card to a geforce 3 to a 9700pro. Over a year after upgrading to a 9700pro, there isn't one card out there thats worth me upgrading to. Shocking.......

The next gen cards better be twice as fast as a 9700pro. Not just a ramped up clock speed and little tweaks that we've seen so far.

So na I don't think we are spoiled. We should be seeing 8k 3dmark 03 cards by now.

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7000747" target="_new"> 3D-2001 </A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1284380" target="_new"> 3D-03 </A>
<font color=red> 120% overclocker </font color=red> (cheapskate)
 

fragglefart

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Some good points here.
I keep hearing how rubbish my 5900Ultra is, well im sorry, but i remember when i thought my 32Meg TNT2 was so powerful it could render the entire universe in real time!
I am stuying an MA in Digital Practises, and issues of Authorship over information are currently plaguing the internet. Still, dont let the mimics and clones dishearten you, it is relatively easy to spot who simply "parrots" what they have heard elsewhere, and who has an actual body of knowledge inside their head they are developing and willing to share with others.
I, for example, know plenty about games/3d graphics but relatively little about hardware. Sure i know about components and build my own systems, but the exact workings of 3Dcards? Dont have a clue, really.
And if more people were straight up, rather than always trying to appear "133t" the 'net would be a much more creative/enjoyable place.
I often pop into this forum with a question because there are a few members whos opinions i respect, although i rarely post, as others cover the points i would make, would ask.... and i do not see much purpose in re-typing what has been covered already.
Phew... heavy stuff. Time to go shoot things i reckon ;P

............................................
Render times? You'll find me down the pub...
 

speeduk

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And BTW FX Sux! :tongue:

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7000747" target="_new"> 3D-2001 </A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1284380" target="_new"> 3D-03 </A>
<font color=red> 120% overclocker </font color=red> (cheapskate)
 

Snorkius

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A lot of the (not so) older games are'nt any worse than the newer ones. All these graphic improvements have not helped the gaming industry. I still think the best RTS ever made was TotalA, the only thing it laked was AI. A lot people still play Quake3 and CS as the FPS of choice.
When I buy a video card I look at two factors:
1)Price/performance ratio
2)Support.



<font color=blue>
I will not add another word.
Horace </font color=blue>
 

eden

Champion
There is a misconception here CS:
1)You are generalizing. In fact, you are creating. I would like you to start quoting or linking to threads where people blatantly act that way. Your stories sound too hyperbolic.

BTW:
"awww that's too bad GET A Ti4200 ANYWAYS"
This used in a joke context, that is exactly you when we discussed graphics technology for consoles, you and your "PS3 RULZ ALL".

2)Story number 2, unless the user had no choice to get the product, calls for actualy knowledge involved. If people actually do object someone's purchase of the FX5600, unless, as I said, he had to buy the product with no other choice, they do it because there is a factual purpose. If we never objected or tried to teach the users or newcomers what the better products are, then they can go and buy anything and be ignorant. Are you saying ignorance is bliss anytime?

To sum up, you would've had a point, except the extremist nature of your stories and the most generalized feel coming from them does not try to come out as convincing to us.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol:
 

eden

Champion
I expected big things this year. What happened? An overclocked 9700pro came out (9800pro) and then a super overclocked 9700pro came out (9800xt). In one year I went from a 64mb ati ddr card to a geforce 3 to a 9700pro. Over a year after upgrading to a 9700pro, there isn't one card out there thats worth me upgrading to. Shocking.......

The next gen cards better be twice as fast as a 9700pro. Not just a ramped up clock speed and little tweaks that we've seen so far.

So na I don't think we are spoiled. We should be seeing 8k 3dmark 03 cards by now.
Your feelings will be echoed by me here.
I have made such a rant in the past few months. Everything this year save for perhaps Athlon 64 FX, has been rather just disappointing. Nothing's come as hot as it should've been.

I could name SO much, but you have the Dual Channel 800MT bus P4s, you have HT (mind you all of these are interesting concepts), R9800, etc.

We may be taking things for granted, I don't know, but I will address this with TKS.

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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol:
 

eden

Champion
Of course, you make a great point on the knowledge issue. It is probable we all did such error once or twice here. I gladly admit I probably did.

What I feel is the issue is the "do we take for granted" one. I am not so sure. Speeduk gave a good example on let-downs. But I will follow his argument by posing the facts on what gaming has become. Do we remember how good games ran back then? Didn't Doom II run fine on 66MHZ? Didn't a Voodoo III run all new games absolutely right, and whenever you had 3DFX Glide OPTIMIZED games, you would get superb graphics with great performance? It's the feeling I got.
But lately, it's been either:
1) Cards simply DON'T perform to their potential, NOR evolve too much in performance. And the result is the benchmarks of the latest games show sub-60FPS averages. This is BAD. It only hurts potential purchases based on these. It also doesn't help good predictions on upcoming gaming quality on such hardware. It seems like every 3 months, the new card we have turns even worse at it.

2)Game & Graphics programmers absolutely suck. How many games feature those bland textures but somehow seem to get by draining the hardware? Or how about the games that actually have great graphics but little optimizations?
A great example of standouts is Max Payne 2. I am playing it, on a Ti200, 512MB 1.4GHZ AthlonXP. And you know what? Aside from this very stupid nonsensical load long time starting the game and getting into a simplistic menu, this game runs very nicely. It has great DX 8 effects, pushes the vertex effects far for great facial results, as well as awesome body movements, the game features excellent dynamics and physics. It lacks slightly in the lighting department, but the environment combined with the sounds is so well designed, you simply have a hard time understanding why others don't follow such workmanship.
I get occasional sub-30 drops, but the game itself even in intensive parts, seems to run far better than any other game on such system. It's the minimum these days, yet I play at max quality. The textures are refined, high-res, the explosions and effects are all there, the filters used in Bullet-time work flawlessly, and the models are very well done.
So what is missing in this picture?
I wouldn't know. I think nothing. I think Remedy did a right programming session with this game.
How much can we expect of other games now?

Maybe you can see why the "taking hardware for granted" claim, although perfectly usable and plausible, doesn't fit right in the current context of graphics card history.

Hope this sheds my opinion on it. It should be noted I am extremely picky on things. I often point out tons of things in articles and benchmark results in my big dissertations of new hardware, that others don't point, either because they didn't know or did but didn't feel like sharing it. They often agree too. I am picky, and I even feel my place in a company's management of PR and programming could help. It may be bragging, but I feel these companies lack so much lately, it's not funny. They don't look at the consumer's needs anymore, or their desires. At least so far ATi has that spirit in the Catalyst team. But how far will this spread?
Not much so far.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol: <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 10/19/03 05:57 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

Willamette_sucks

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OMG. What are you a drama major? Cry me a river. This is a (one of many) graphics board, not the head of some establishment (a church for example). That is to say, we are not (nor are we meant to be) the sole and shining example of creative, original, and intelligent graphics boards (as you would like). Noone is looking for the meaning of life here. If someone can't find what they want here they can go to OTHER boards (or elsewhere)! Also, I like how you say some of us are simply "repeating what we hear". That's exactly what knowledge is. Unless one of us were to CREATE a graphics card, we can only talk about ones in existance. That means that beyond the engineers from ATI, everything is just repeated. There's nothing wrong with repeating things, although I agree understanding them is a different matter.

I'd also like to say that I do not share your view of the graphics industry this year. The 9800XT (being this years fastest ATI card) is significantly faster than a 9700 Pro, and has an extra edge in AA/AF and titles that benefit from its slightly reworked architecture.

And about being spoiled? Who are you to say that. Everything is relative. Were you not spoiled to have two top of the line 4mb graphics cards, back in the day? Soon enough current cards will be obsolete, and will go from "istantaneous texture enhanced 256mb DDR2 vid cards" to that POS that wasn't even good when it came out (although that won't be true, and isn't true of the GF2). Everything is relative. Is my life better than that of a poor hungry African childs? When you compare the two, it may look like it. But it dosn't seem so to me, nor should it to him. Because he is used to the 'suck' in his life, it dosn't come accross as 'suck'. It must drop to a level below that of "normal" to him, to seem bad to him. So when something drops below the level of "normal" for me, it is the same drop, and therefore seems just as bad to me. So while we could not imagine being happy in his situation, to him it is quite acceptable (as acceptable as our own life is to us, more or less). That is just one example, but think about it. Everything is relative.

I mostly agree with Eden, apart from the 9800XT not being much better than the 9700 (15fps isnt better than 10, but 30 is better than 20, and 40 is better than 30, quite noticeably:)). And I must say im surprised and proud of Edens Athlon 64 FX comment!

SIGNATURE: Stop asking people "whats up" or "hows it goin", you know you don't give a sh*t. And noone cares how you're doing either.

"We are far less than we knew." - Bright Eyes

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Willamette_Sucks on 10/19/03 09:04 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

eden

Champion
Flame read what I said before you start jumping on his naive boat.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol:
 

eden

Champion
And I must say im surprised and proud of Edens Athlon 64 FX comment!

I will comment based on the actual and potential results on actual products, and will give whatever praise the product deserves whenever it is within the reasonable boundaries. What I will not take into is comments that simply kill the competition's possibility of coming back. So do not confuse what you thought about my take on AMD's problems with what I view of them and their products. AMD or Intel, I don't care.
Just satisfy me and give me more silicon porn and I'll be happy.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> :lol:
 

TKS

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Nah, I graduated college long ago...no drama major here. But I did some summer stock i guess.

Oh yeah, and what I mean by 'repeating what we hear' is that we don't take the time to actually understand what exactly we are repeating...which you agree with me on.

We are spoiled...everyone is spoiled by the internet...myself included. I'm used to everything being done immediately now. I'm sure I share company with everyone too. I've been around since the time of the 4MB download that took all day long...and that was an entire game. That was when patience was a virtue...not that I long for those days, just that I long for the attitude that was prevalent in those days. However, that is always the case...we always long for the past. I guess I'm just nostalgic a bit this week...I had an IRC reunion from 1993 and my channel on Efnet. Bah...I suck again. :tongue:

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<b>I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman! </b> <i>Homer Simpson</i>
 

lhgpoobaa

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hmmm.

Resolution wise i cant see much of an increase...
monitor sizes are slowing down, 21" seems to be the max normal used, so anything beyond 1600x1200 isnt going to make much of a difference.

Especially as AA and Ansio have made images smoother and sharper.

Framerates really cant get much higher beyond a certain point... can you tell the difference between 120 and 140 fps?

its just all the extra eyecandy that will keep pushing things.
real life lighting, shadows, textured surfaces, realtime blur etc taht will get better.


edit: going back to AA, when you look at it the R9700/9800 & FX5900 are really the FIRST cards that can do decent levels of AA at high resolutions (greater than 1024x768) without gaming sucking.

So we still have a little way to go before mainstream cards do the same.

<b>I am not a AMD fanboy.
I am not a Via fanboy.
I am not a ATI fanboy.
I AM a performance fanboy.
And a low price fanboy. :smile:
Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.</b>
 

Willamette_sucks

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I feel the same. You know that I've shown interest and hope in the P4, more specifically the prescott. I think the P4EE is great, but I'm wondering what the first Prescotts will really have on top of it. It may not be till later that the P4 really shines. I think a higher clocked A64FX would be the way to go (money allowing), and with games and programs that take use of its extra registers I think it will really shine. I know I was talking of upgrading 1st/2nd quarter of '04 (like around March), but now I don't see that happening. For one I want a Line 6 Flextone III for Christmas, so there goes any money for computer parts:) So maybe by the time the A64FX (money allowing) goes to socket 939 I'll upgrade. But with the amp (and some other stuff I want to do), and car insurance becoming an issue in a couple months (ouch) I don't see an upgrade happening any time soon. Man I need a job. Man I need a girlfriend! See what I mean? My life is way worse than the poor starving African kids! Although hopefully that girlfriend thing won't be a problem:)

SIGNATURE: Stop asking people "whats up" or "hows it goin", you know you don't give a sh*t. And noone cares how you're doing either.

"We are far less than we knew." - Bright Eyes
 

coolsquirtle

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what boat?? oh s*** .......

i'm not naive!! dont insult me like that!

I AM STUPID!!!

lolz~~~ i'm outta here till my R9600pro~~~ and then i'm gonna ask u fanATics a s***load of questions!! BE PREPARE AND BE SCARED! VERY SCARED! especially those other R9600pro owners out there~~ (Grape ur the first one i'm picking on :D)

despite all that. i'm still 120% nVboy :D

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
bring it fanATics~~ nVidia PWNS all!
SCREW aBOX! LONG LIVE nBOX!!
 

jihiggs

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man, in this day it is very possible for some one to own a computer with very little money that is perfectly capable of playing the newest games for 1 year to come. it wasnt like that in the days before 3d cards. and when ram was insanely priced. you would be happy if games ran at all on your computer. screw how well it played, it played. and constantly having to worry about hard drive space, because hard drives were also insanely priced for very little. now people arent impressed with a game until it feels like your really there, back in the day we were impressed with a flying box that had more than one color to it. you damn spoiled kids got it good. how many of you remember using softram or stacker to upgrade your computer huh?

wpdclan.com cs game server - 69.12.5.119:27015
 

Willamette_sucks

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And you were impressed by those flying boxes huh? And 256 color VGA! Wow. It's all relative my friend. I started off with HL (first FPS, my first game was Mechwarrior 2 [1337!]). So, naturally, HL being my starting point, I see improvement from that (as opposed to flying boxes). And uh, I forgot what I was going to say but I can assure you it was extremely meaningful and eye opening, and could have changed your life if you let it, as I am a great philosopher and writer. But the greatness of my thoughts is too much to handle, and they have escaped me. I shall try to capture them and bestow their genius upon you at a later time. Peace.

SIGNATURE: Stop asking people "whats up" or "hows it goin", you know you don't give a sh*t. And noone cares how you're doing either.

"We are far less than we knew." - Bright Eyes
 

jihiggs

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dude, i remember the first time i saw a still picture on the screen at 16 bit color. i never got into mechwarrior. probly cause there was an extra set of controls to rotate the top half, too much of a learning curve for me lol.

wpdclan.com cs game server - 69.12.5.119:27015
 
CoolS I'm ready for you, and the only thing that scares me is that you may start spaming the forum with 'My R9600P is SOO Great!' posts. :tongue:


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new"><font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil:
 

ufo_warviper

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CoolS I'm ready for you, and the only thing that scares me is that you may start spaming the forum with 'My R9600P is SOO Great!' posts.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
 

ufo_warviper

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Once you're don butchering CS to shreds he has yet another impossible feat to take on because is looks like GW's next in line :evil: :

Coolsquirtle said:

I'd take on GW anyday but i'm busy with reality so maybe some other time
Okay Ape & GW, you gotch your blades sharpened?

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!