News Arm to cancel Qualcomm's architecture license as feud intensifies

[Admin]

Arm has given Qualcomm 60-days notice of cancellation for its architecture license as part of its Nuvia-related legal dispute.

Arm to cancel Qualcomm's architecture license as feud intensifies : Read more

 

[setx]

Great news.
Huawei case didn't teach the companies how stupid it is to tie themselves to a monopoly?

 

[thestryker]

Arm has been pretty ridiculous in this whole battle from the start which is saying a lot given Qualcomm's arguably malicious IP enforcement history. This specifically seems like it's an attempt to force a settlement before the trial starts in December. I cannot imagine that any judge would take this move even remotely kindly should the trial go forward.

 

[gamerk316]

Arm has been pretty ridiculous in this whole battle from the start which is saying a lot given Qualcomm's arguably malicious IP enforcement history. This specifically seems like it's an attempt to force a settlement before the trial starts in December. I cannot imagine that any judge would take this move even remotely kindly should the trial go forward.

I wonder should ARM follow through AND this goes to trial if Qualcomm has any case for adding damages should they win.

 

[tracker1]

I fully expect Qualcomm to invest heavily into Risc-V in the next year of they aren't already. Unfortunately, ARM is significantly better performing right now.

While I understand ARM POV on this, it's pretty silly all the same. Qualcomm licensing already exceed the smaller company it bought.

 

[kaalus]

Support RISCV. To h**l with software and hardware monopolies.

 

[bit_user]

In 2019, Arm granted Nuvia two licenses: the Technology License Agreement (TLA) and Architecture License Agreement (ALA) one to modify its existing cores and another to design custom cores. These licenses were granted on the condition that Nuvia would develop datacenter-grade products and were non-transferable without Arm's approval, which Qualcomm did not obtain when it acquired Nuvia in 2021. As a result, Arm terminated Nuvia's licenses in 2022, but Qualcomm argued that its ALA also covered its subsidiary, Nuvia too.

Qualcomm doesn't dispute that Nuvia's licenses were non-transferrable. Their main contention is that their prior architecture license should apply to Nuvia, post-acquisition.

You might wonder why Qualcomm didn't just settle the matter by negotiating a new architecture license, except that ARM is threatened by one of its biggest IP customers switching (back) to its own cores. So, what ARM tried to do was to effectively demand royalties on Qualcomm's own core designs, by way of making Qualcomm's customers pay ARM a license fee for them (from what I understand).

This would've made Qualcomm's chips more expensive, putting them at a competitive disadvantage vs. MediaTek, for instance (who still just uses ARM's designs).

Picking this fight is very risky move for ARM. I'm sure it's pushing Qualcomm & others towards the RISC-V path. Qualcomm was even talking up RISC-V, recently. I think ARM's strategy is that it's hoping this move will generate enough short-term revenue, and that it can replace architecture licensees with new AI IP that it's hoping to have on the market, by the time there's a real shift towards RISC-V among them.

 

[bit_user]

I fully expect Qualcomm to invest heavily into Risc-V in the next year of they aren't already.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...our-other-industry-players-to-form-quintauris
​

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/qualcomm-adopts-risc-v-for-next-gen-snapdragon-wear-platform
​

Unfortunately, ARM is significantly better performing right now.

I wouldn't put it like that. Rather, I'd say there just aren't competitive RISC-V options on the market, in the higher-performance tiers.

I'm sure ARM is already suffering serious declines in licensing revenues for its microcontroller IP, due to a flood of RISC-V based alternatives (plus, big former customers designing their own).

What has sort of made up for it is ARM's ascendancy in the cloud.

While I understand ARM POV on this, it's pretty silly all the same. Qualcomm licensing already exceed the smaller company it bought.

ARM made a huge mistake in the terms of its architecture licenses being too generous. Now, it's regretting that decision, but those licenses are valid for like 10-years. So, it has few options left than trying to find technicalities to invalidate its customers licenses and use litigation to force them into renegotiation.

I hope ARM loses and everyone who had anything to do with this strategy gets fired. Long term, this would be the best thing for the ARM ISA, if not ARM as a company.

 

[Steve Nord_]

ARM is even now proving that having an extensible (if not 32-64 Big-Small compandable, or 512bitslice vectorizable) bus that just works in concert with the ASM is a supposedly fun thing Risc V fans should try to do. Roping in a hypervisor cluster scheduler to do in one core what scheduled horribly in 16 kubernetes isn't catching quite so fast, but the math will out.

Roping in a judge to halt a whole supplychain on a Net 90 dime better have some fans in the market too, or options distribution will eat their contract outcomes for them. Love the idea that a court administrator is gonna try the big red Stop Safely button on ('first' sales of) half the servers and rather more mobiles though. "I have altered the terms. Pray that I do not emulate (¡PPC PS3!) altering them again."

 

[pclaughton]

NAL, but seems like an easy injunction for Qualcomm to win by just pointing to the upcoming trial?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I hope Qualcomm buys a permanent (No Royalties EVER) x86 License, just to spite ARM.

That would be so awesome =D

Then we don't have to worry as much about software compatibility in the Windows OS world

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I wouldn't put it like that. Rather, I'd say there just aren't competitive RISC-V options on the market, in the higher-performance tiers.

I'm sure ARM is already suffering serious declines in licensing revenues for its microcontroller IP, due to a flood of RISC-V based alternatives (plus, big former customers designing their own).

What has sort of made up for it is ARM's ascendancy in the cloud.

RISC-V just had a major Ratification.
RISC-V Announces Ratification of the RVA23 Profile Standard

Spoiler: Tech Tech Potato - The RISC-V News we've been waiting for; RVA23

This should get the ball rolling since this major base standard has been ratified.

 

[jlake3]

I hope Qualcomm buys a permanent (No Royalties EVER) x86 License, just to spite ARM.

That would be so awesome =D

Then we don't have to worry as much about software compatibility in the Windows OS world

That's not a thing that either Intel or AMD offers, and because X86-64 is the result of cross licensing agreements between the two of them, neither one is likely even capable of offering a license that covers everything you need to make a modern X86-64 compatible CPU no matter how much money you offer them.

The only way to get that license is to acquire someone who already has one, and Intel might be troubled but not so much so that they're trying to sell the company.

 

[jlake3]

This is a mess and both companies are awful about their licensing, and this is does seem like an attempt to force some form of progress in the case... but ARM doesn't seem totally unfounded?

From ARM's cancellation threat in 2022 they filed with the court:

Second, Arm has no obligation to support Qualcomm’s further attempts to continue developing unlicensed technology originally developed at Nuvia using Arm’s architecture. Qualcomm’s ALA with Arm expressly excludes any license to Arm technology that was not developed under that specific ALA. The Qualcomm ALA limits Qualcomm’s design and manufacture rights, and Arm’s verification, delivery, and support obligations, to chips (1) based on the technology Arm delivered to Qualcomm under that ALA, (2) created at Qualcomm, by Qualcomm engineers and Qualcomm subsidiaries during the period while those entities were subsidiaries of Qualcomm, and (3) licensed subject to the terms of that ALA. None of this is true of the Phoenix core or other designs developed by Nuvia engineers at Nuvia based on the technology and license granted to Nuvia by Arm when Nuvia was a standalone company. Thus, Qualcomm is not only trying to develop an unlicensed product, but is also materially breaching its ALA with Arm.

(Italics original)

Based on this, it sounds like the ALA allowed Qualcomm to design and manufacture their own derivative designs based on the ARM ISA, but Qualcomm's ALA did not license them to produce ISA-compatible chips designed by other companies subject to their own ALA. Nuvia was not part of Qualcomm when the core was designed and had their own ALA with different terms, supposedly including that derivative designs were not transferable without approval. That seems bad for Qualcomm, which from what I've read seems to be arguing that having an ALA allows them to produce custom ARM-compatible designs and that the transfer and origin terms don't apply because... reasons.

And since this cancellation is just the architecture license, ARM has structured this to only affect sales of the Snapdragon X Elite/Pro (and the announced but not shipping yet Snapdragon 8 Elite) and not the Cortex A/X based products in smartphones/tablets/Chromebooks that make up the bulk of Qualcomm's volume, which may survive a court challenge where a TLA cancellation would result in an immediate injunction. Not sure if ARM is trying to force a juicy transfer fee... or if they're not bluffing and think they can force Qualcomm back onto Cortex designs that earn ARM more royalties.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's not a thing that either Intel or AMD offers, and because X86-64 is the result of cross licensing agreements between the two of them, neither one is likely even capable of offering a license that covers everything you need to make a modern X86-64 compatible CPU no matter how much money you offer them.

The only way to get that license is to acquire someone who already has one, and Intel might be troubled but not so much so that they're trying to sell the company.

So buying the license from VIA?

 

[thestryker]

And since this cancellation is just the architecture license, ARM has structured this to only affect sales of the Snapdragon X Elite/Pro (and the announced but not shipping yet Snapdragon 8 Elite) and not the Cortex A/X based products in smartphones/tablets/Chromebooks that make up the bulk of Qualcomm's volume, which may survive a court challenge where a TLA cancellation would result in an immediate injunction.

You say just, but given the upcoming court case this is a sign of a company acting in bad faith. Termination of both would have said Arm no longer wants to work with Qualcomm, but only terminating the architecture license says Arm wants to control Qualcomm's SoC business.

 

[ekio]

Before, we were stuck with x86 and the duopoly that crooked us for decades.
Now ARM is trying to milk their customers as much as possible using more lawyers than engineers.
This should teach the world a lesson: use free ISAs and be freed from all that crap!

The ISA is to hardware what the programming language is to software.
Nobody in the software industry would be dumb enough to use a closed source or licensed language to develop a large project, so, hardware design companies, stop being dumb and embrace risc-v or any open/free alternative that there is. Stop making your entire business relying under greedy licenses vendors, you’ll go nowhere.

 

[Lamarr the Strelok]

I checked again and yep it says arm are risc processors.Are they not compatible with risc V ? What am I missing there? Also even if ARM went to the x86 route wouldn't they have a lot more difficulty performing as well running a different eg: (windows os)? Seems modern windows would weigh ARM down quite a bit.I'm here to learn!

 

[jasonf2]

I hope Qualcomm buys a permanent (No Royalties EVER) x86 License, just to spite ARM.

That would be so awesome =D

Then we don't have to worry as much about software compatibility in the Windows OS world

Unless something has changed pretty dramatically Intel doesn't license x86 like that anymore, especially to what would be a competitor that would probably make AMD look tame based on IP holdings. Those original X86 licenses were negotiated due to Intel having its hand forced by IBM if memory serves back in the 8086/88 days or even earlier. Because it goes back so far I am pretty sure X86 itself is out of patent. However the extensions developed between AMD (also cross licensed) and Intel that still are in patent make a lawsuit mine field that would cost a fortune to license even if they were willing. I think the closest they could get is to use IFS and license cores which is fairly new and nothing like what AMD has. Buying AMD or Via wouldn't work either as their license is specifically non transferable and terminates on acquisition (sound familiar?). This is why ARM was able to come to the point that it has because it was a such an open licensing model. Risc-v or some other open source makes the most sense, but even then Qualcomm is going to customize and use patented IP in such a way that will force it into a more ARM like structure.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Unless something has changed pretty dramatically Intel doesn't license x86 like that anymore, especially to what would be a competitor that would probably make AMD look tame based on IP holdings. Those original X86 licenses were negotiated due to Intel having its hand forced by IBM if memory serves back in the 8086/88 days or even earlier. Because it goes back so far I am pretty sure X86 itself is out of patent. However the extensions developed between AMD (also cross licensed) and Intel that still are in patent make a lawsuit mine field that would cost a fortune to license even if they were willing. I think the closest they could get is to use IFS and license cores which is fairly new and nothing like what AMD has. Buying AMD or Via wouldn't work either as their license is specifically non transferable and terminates on acquisition (sound familiar?). This is why ARM was able to come to the point that it has because it was a such an open licensing model. Risc-v or some other open source makes the most sense, but even then Qualcomm is going to customize and use patented IP in such a way that will force it into a more ARM like structure.

Given that "Hell has Frozen Over" recently when Intel & AMD decided to form the x86 Working Group together along with others, I'm willing to bet things might change about licensing to others if both parties agree to who gets invited into the x86 field.

I never thought I'd see Intel & AMD work together on the x86 Working Group, shows you what can happen if given a long enough time frame.

Right now is a huge opportunity for Team x86., especially given how MS has dabbled "Too Much" with ARM, if they can convince Qualcomm to come over to the Team x86 side, I'm sure there are other forces that can convince MS to close off their ARM developments, and keep nVIDIA out of the ARM on Windows potentially.

Short of nVIDIA paying a "Hefty license" to join team x86 and making x86 CPUs for Windows themselves.

 

[Thunder64]

Given that "Hell has Frozen Over" recently when Intel & AMD decided to form the x86 Working Group together along with others, I'm willing to bet things might change about licensing to others if both parties agree to who gets invited into the x86 field.

I never thought I'd see Intel & AMD work together on the x86 Working Group, shows you what can happen if given a long enough time frame.

Right now is a huge opportunity for Team x86., especially given how MS has dabbled "Too Much" with ARM, if they can convince Qualcomm to come over to the Team x86 side, I'm sure there are other forces that can convince MS to close off their ARM developments, and keep nVIDIA out of the ARM on Windows potentially.

Short of nVIDIA paying a "Hefty license" to join team x86 and making x86 CPUs for Windows themselves.

You're assuming Nvidia (or Qualcomm) could obtain an x86 license. Why would AMD & Intel invite more competition when they just announced a partnership of sorts to fight ARM?

 

[Notton]

Remember when Nvidia was barred from purchasing ARM because they were expected to be anti-competitive with licensing?
I never thought ARM would pull the exact stunt without Nvidia at the helm.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You're assuming Nvidia (or Qualcomm) could obtain an x86 license. Why would AMD & Intel invite more competition when they just announced a partnership of sorts to fight ARM?

Qualcomm is one of, if not the #1 Client Vendors for ARM.

Imagine what kind of industry message it would send if Team x86 convinced them to swap sides.

That x86 was open up to new partner members like in the past when there was more competition.

Then, they can use that somehow to force MS to give up on having "ARM support" in Windows, and help solidify x86's hold on Windows.

That would also close out the ARM CPU window for nVIDIA and force nVIDIA to the x86 negotiation table.

It would be up to AMD & Intel to help negotiate terms for nVIDIA's inclusion into the club and how much it would cost for a "Seat at the Table".

We know all Bubbles, pop, especially AI.

Jensen has always wanted to make CPU's, that's a well known aspiration.

Before he dies, he can create a 3rd division within nVIDIA, and make his own x86 CPU's, that would complete his life goals.

Just like how Intel is starting from the bottom on the GPU side, nVIDIA would be nearly starting from the bottom on the CPU side.

Qualcomm would have to adapt their CPU to decode x86, but I'm sure they can figure it out in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[thestryker]

Imagine what kind of industry message it would send if Team x86 convinced them to swap sides.

That x86 was open up to new partner members like in the past when there was more competition.

The point is that Intel and AMD wouldn't be interested in more competition unless they got something out of it. If Qualcomm were to cross license their wireless IP that might make it worthwhile, but that's about the only thing I can think of that they could really offer.

There's no simple way for x86 to be setup with a licensing scheme since the current standards are intrinsically tied to AMD and Intel.

 

[Erazor24]

Couldn't hit any better guy. Qualcomm is a POS company.