ATI or nVidia

Sarke

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(Fanboys of either need not reply)

Why are so many ppl taking sides in this great Graphics War? I am sick of reading about how one or the other company sucks just cuz they have driver problems or are noisy.
Either you are a hypocrite who sides with the company who has the best card out at the moment, or you stick with one of them (maybe cuz you wanna fell better about the card you spent $300 on) and you're an idiot (cuz when your company is not on top you buy an inferior product).

Bottom line is that both companies are good. They both make quality products. We should buy the card that is the leader at the moment we want to buy a card, simple isn't it?

I used to favour nVidia (and 3dfx before that) because it has been in the forefront of gaming graphics for so long (remember how they killed 3dfx all those years ago...). ATI used to be more into business graphics at the time, so the choice for me as a gamer was simple.

Now that ATI has started focusing on the gaming market I couldn't be happier! They have made some awesome cards in the past 2 years and I hope they keep it up.

On the other hand, the nv30 was a set back for nVidia but I'm not worried. I know that they will redeem themselves with a new great card (if not the nv35, then the one after that). I only wish that Matrox and Creative Labs would get back into the mix so that there would be even more competition (= better cards & lower prices). It would be like the good old 3D War of 1997 (the good old days when cards were cheaper and the next great card was just a month or two away...)

In the end, we shouldn't side with one and say the other sucks cuz it's simply not true. Instead, look at what either is bringing to the table at the time and make an intelligent choice.

Let's just pray that Micro$oft doesn't enter the graphics market and buys out ATI & nVidia...
 

namek0

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I'm not going to lie, I'm a huge ati fan.

But when it all comes down to it, I'll buy the card that delivers the best graphics at the best price. If I have to pay another $100 for 10 more fps, screw that.

I'm running a Radeon 8500 now for the record

It's all good ^_^
 

confoundicator

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I agree one hundred precent. Before making <i>any</i> hardware purchase one should look at things like price, performance, and compatibility regardless of brand. But asking people in this forum to give up their biases and opinions (no matter how misguided) is somewhat similar to telling everybody in a chat room to shut up. It just ain't happenin.

<font color=blue>-Any tool dropped while repairing a car will roll under the car to the exact middle.</font color=blue><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by confoundicator on 05/11/03 02:10 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

Sarke

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Thanks for the compliments guys (well, not fo_sho who doesn't know what the post is about).
Just trying to put some sense into some ppl, but I hope it wasn't too "why can't we all just get along?".
 

CasualCat2001

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Why are so many ppl taking sides in this great Graphics War? I am sick of reading about how one or the other company sucks just cuz they have driver problems or are noisy.
Either you are a hypocrite who sides with the company who has the best card out at the moment, or you stick with one of them (maybe cuz you wanna fell better about the card you spent $300 on) and you're an idiot (cuz when your company is not on top you buy an inferior product).
Define so many ppl...

While there are a few here that are diehard fans of one of the two major brands, the majority are expressing their opinions about the latest line of cards more so than the company. You should read and comprehend more of the posts before you come on here making a sweeping statement like that. It is true many people here are not happy with one particular company's newest product line, but rightfully so. It is a disappointment especially when the company itself put so much effort into hyping their "great" new product. Few of the regulars here though have said one company or another sucks though. I could probably count them on one hand.

It would be like the good old 3D War of 1997 (the good old days when cards were cheaper and the next great card was just a month or two away...
While it would be nice if cards were cheaper, I prefer the longer product lifetime. It helps compensate for paying more because you get more use out of your card before you have to or feel like you have to upgrade. Even if companies started putting out cards more often, I doubt they would lower their prices. So then we would all have to spend a lot more money just to keep up with newer technology. Besides, the programmers are lagging behind the hardware anyways...
 

GeneticWeapon

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Good reply Casual...much better then the STFU responce I was about to give him.

Pictures of my PC & Me!<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/html/Genetic_Weapon.html" target="_new">http://www.lochel.com/THGC/html/Genetic_Weapon.html</A>
<font color=red>Melb_Angel</font color=red>=<font color=blue>The other white meat!</font color=blue>
 

Sarke

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The "so many ppl" I'm referring to are the ones who just reply to say "ATI sucks" or "nVidia sucks". And yes, there are a lot of them, but I never said the majority.
The regulars here are very knowledgeable about what they are saying and I seldom hear anything like that from them.

And in reply to your second statement, I doubt that you have any knowledge about simple macroeconomics. The companies would have to lower their prices when there is more competition, either because another company has just released a better product or because a comparable product is similarly priced and they want to sell more cards.

Don't you see that if there hadn't been that much competition back then, we would probably be talking about how great the GeForce 2 is.
 

Twitch

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Good response Cat. I'd like to point out that cards weren't that much cheaper "in the good old days" either, especially when you consider that it was actually <i>necessary</i> to upgrade your vid card every nine months or so as very usable new technologies started popping up. I mean, back then, when a graphics card became obsolete, it truly was obsolete compared to newer hardware. Remember Voodoo's Fast-Ugly-Refresh? I mean, my Voodoo2 was cool and everything, until the first time I saw a TNT2-Ultra with high resolution and 32-bit color at useable speeds. Nowadays, the improvements are much more incremental, and don't really give you that "wow" factor that the early cards provided. I feel like my Radeon will be quite satisfactory for at least eighteen months, if not longer, because the only thing that will really improve significantly will be FPS with AA and AT and DX9.0 performance. When DX 9.0 games start to hit the market, then I'll see what's new and wonderful that makes my Radeon look wimpy.

Anyway, in response to the actual topic, it is possible to be a fan of graphics cards, in general. That's what I am. As such, I don't really feel any loyalty to a particular company, but I do love the technology as a whole.


<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
 

Sarke

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Yes, I agree with you there Twitch. I remember the old VR and add-in 3d-only Voodoo cards that the developers had to make specific code for. I myself had a orchid righteous 3d next to my matrox millenium.

The point I was making was that I wish the competition (not the technology) was as back in those days, and the reason we saw such big revolutionary improvements was because 3d graphics was still very new.
 

CasualCat2001

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I doubt that you have any knowledge about simple macroeconomics.
again with another statement...

Do you know anything about me or my educational background?
It just so happens that economics was one of my stronger areas of study in college...

While macroeconomic theory is simple, application in the real world is not. If it is, maybe you should be in Greenspan's chair...

There are other factors besides competition that determine prices. To churn out new cards how you would like, the companies would have to devote a much larger portion of their budget to development. These costs of course would be assumed ultimately by their customers. Also, do you think shareholders would be happy seeing a reduction in average per unit revenue? Granted that in theory with lower prices comes increased sales, but with more competition those increased sales are more likely to be spread out amoung the various companies. Also with increased sales comes the necessity of increased production capacity. If you have been following the news for these companies, they already had a shortage of chips they were trying to overcome. With increased output they would either have to build more production facilities, which is costly, or they would have to contract production out to an outside company, which is still an added cost.

Now if you re-read my post, I never said I wasn't for competition. Competition does yield more inovation and prevent complacency. What I was saying was that I am happy that new cards are not comming so rapidly as you had suggested.

(fixed the mistake in the markup text that messed up the quote)<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by CasualCat2001 on 05/11/03 09:27 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

wurrmm

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Right on with that post. The same should apply to Intel vs AMD. Right now I happen to be upgrading, I usually have bought AMDs for the good price and performance, but am now building a canterwood system, and when I get my new GPU next it could very well be a FX5900 ultra.

One mans throw-away is another mans god-box. Help friends in need, I always do!!
Then again, having extra parts are great for making dedicated servers for LAN parties!!!!
 

Sarke

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OK, I apologise for my presumption about your education. But your original reply was very much a "the companies would screw us over anyways" and this was my way of reiterating my point.

If you have been following the news for these companies, they already had a shortage of chips they were trying to overcome. With increased output they would either have to build more production facilities, which is costly, or they would have to contract production out to an outside company, which is still an added cost.
Yes, but remember that the scenario I was talking about involved many more than 2 companies and therefore one single company would have a much smaller portion of the market share. The companies would be faced with a demand shortage, not a supply shortage; they'd have to lower prices to stay competitive.

Anyways, it was never my intention to start arguments and my main point was the advance in technology.
 
I agree with your basic premise of increased competition leading to better cards for us. As long as there is set standards, and not everyone's own idea of 'How it should be played' causing a whole bunch of cards working twice as hard against this or that 'optimization'. I have always advocated more card maker show cards. Where the HELL is my P10 Creative?
Unlike some here I'm not worried about the current cards becoming obsolete to anyone but the 'Benchmarkers' who don't play games, they just wish to show of the size of their Buffers! OpenGL and DirectX mean that the cards follow a basic path within reason (Nvidia, where's my PS 1.4?), and game developers don't code for just one class of card, they try to code for the broadest spectrum. Had there been an ATI 9300, 9400, and 9900, it wouldn't make the 9000,9500,9700 obslete. Heck EVERY game out there ran on my AIW-128bit PCI 16mb card (yeah some pretty slow or at low res., but it's a Freakin' old card not meant for gaming). So it's not true about them becoming obsolete, just that those one the cutting edge want the BEST, and for those of you not familiar with that idea, being an early adopter cost MONEY, the question is how close to the cutting edge do you want to be? A friend/acquaintance of mine used to work for EA sports, and had a GF4 long before it hit the markets, and she payed for it too ($600 CDN [about + more than when it hit the marketplace months later]), but she had to be in FRONT of the cutting edge; now that card is in a rig at a friend's, and I have no idea what she's running in her rig.
I would prefer alot of competition, more cards means better things for the consumers (as long as driver support stays constant), where it becomes probelematic is for the Manufacturers who might not reap the benifits from a single line (but maybe from a progressive chip design [gradual increases]), If they can't recoup enough money from having too short a production cycle then they may cut support services like driver development (especially of older cards) in order to simply produce the kings of the hill.
The funny thing is that the best thing for us would be a benevolent or regulated MONOPOLY, however I don't think that either ATI or Nvidia are in this for US, nor would the Gov't regulate this market simply to benifit us, even if there was only one player.
And I agree with Twitch, you can simply be a fan of Games, Graphics, etc. without being a sworn Fanboi of one company. Yes most of us favour one company right now in the gaming market (and diff. ones for diff. apps), but that's simply because we like their STUFF, not the company itself, which is really just Brick and Mortar. Now onto the important stuff :evil: ;

I doubt that you have any knowledge about simple macroeconomics.
<b>NOW</b>, Everyone STOP talking economics! Jeez, my Eyes are freakin' bleeding! MacroEconomics has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about, it's MICROECONOMICS. Macro would only be involved in the forcasting of the market based on externals (labour market, interest rates, prosperity, etc). Micro is the study of firms and how they interact with the marketplace/consumers. Macro influences the activities in Micro (wages,debt interest, economics health of consumers), but competition is an endogenous variable/outcome directly tied to the activities of the market. All macro effects are completely exogenous to what you are talking about.

<b>CASUALCAT</b>, both of you just proved how NOT simple economic theory is, alhough I will grant you theory is one thing application is another. Now simple theories come from Physicists, and they can easily be proved or disproved. :tongue:

Simple rule of thumb (very simple so don't use it in a test and fail dumbass!) is; Micro = small market (as in the actions of a small part of the greater economy), Macro = the larger market as in the economy of ALL the markets in an industry type (service,manufacturing,etc)/country/global economy.

Man the freakin' school year is OVER don't make me think of this crap unless you're gonna pay me to be the Forum Econ. TA! And if you think THIS post is long you should see lecture notes!

Sorry I'm a little Cranky I got sunbruned SKIING :cool: yesterday at Sunshine, and broke my A$$ on a jump (may post pics if they come out good).
However, STOP Talking about Economics, especially if you use the words 'knowledge' and 'simple', and then screw it up!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
 

confoundicator

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I have Knowledge of Simple Macroeconomics! I took as an undergrad, along with Easy Organic Chemistry and Dumbed-Down Differential Equations (pre-requisite was Peace-O-Cake Calculus).

ehhh... sometimes they're just for me... :|

<font color=blue>-Any tool dropped while repairing a car will roll under the car to the exact middle.</font color=blue>
 

Sarke

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HAHAHA, well said TheGreatGrapeApe (but a very hard read).

Yeah, I'm never in the cutting edge of technology, it's just too damn expensive! As I wrote in another post:
"never buy the latest hardware, it's gonna be old in a few months time. Instead, buy what you wanted a few months ago and you'll save lots of money" :)

Also, I hate to rain on your parade, but you are wrong about macro/micro economics. We are in fact talking about macroeconomics.

Macroeconomics - a study of economics in terms of whole systems especially with reference to general levels of output and income and to the interrelations among sectors of the economy. (The simple way of thing in about it is the marketplace. The foundation and basics of macroeconomics is supply and demand.)

Microeconomics - a study of economics in terms of individual areas of activity (as a firm, household, or prices). (Simply put, it is the inner workings of a business, aka corporate economics)

The funny thing is that the best thing for us would be a benevolent or regulated MONOPOLY, however I don't think that either ATI or Nvidia are in this for US, nor would the Gov't regulate this market simply to benefit us, even if there was only one player
Don't get me started on why communism doesn't work... :p

Hey, these last few LONG replies have all come from one single line in my original post... let's see what we can do with the other stuff :D

hehe, seriously though, don't take everything you read word for word!
 
Sarke, I hate to rain on YOUR parade, but I am an Economist!

Your are wrong. Pure and simple. Ask ANY Economist.

Competition is a facet of MICROECONOMICS, NOT Macro. There may be competing factors, influences, resources, etc. But there is no direct COMPETITION except when it comes to gov't interests or industry sectors competing against each other either directly or indirectly. The only influence of MACRO economics is in the INTERNAL workings of ANY one company, like the determination of Wage Rates based on Labour markets, and the decisions on debt based on 'savings and investments' data/curve of the economy as a whole.

Re-read your definitions and then re-think your comments.
And don't bother debating economics with me if your only reference is Websters or Encyclopedia Britannica.

And don't confuse communism with regulated Monopolies. I doubt you understand the concept of Economies/Factors of Scale for production, but look it up and understand what I was refering to. I do agree Communism doesn't work (in practice) and there is no way to actually apply the theory (which could work, but very unlikely), but that shouldn't be surprising based on my field (don't confuse my IT work (which pays for school) with my chosen field.

I will not expand further on it here, since 'SIMPLY PUT' <b> YOU'RE WRONG!</b> If you wish to go to the 'Others' section of THG's forums then fine. I have some down time at work to school you, and it would be good practice for defending my next paper.
Simply post a reply stating that you're posting there.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
 
Dude I took a 15ft Cliff (in the middle of a glade) with my SnowBlades (Very short Skis) on, and when I landed I did what I'm used to on my ViperXs (longer all-mtn skiis) and leaned back a bit to keep from toppling over (which is more dangerous). Anywhoo, the Snowblades went out from under me like stepping on a plate on an oil-slick and my A$$ slammed into the hill (packed snow). I Didn't actually 'BREAK' it, but lets just say I'm typing this on the couch while lying on my side. :smile: At first it didn't hurt, I got right up and kept skiing, then 3-5 seconds later it was like the worst 'Physical' I/you've ever had! I stopped and fell forward in to the snow face first moaning! My friends were all around saying, Man are you OK? Another friend had a similar incident at Louise about a month ago, and so I used his words 'Man I think I broke my F$%^# A$$!'
So I lay there for about 5 minutes and then the MAJOR pain went away (It was like bashing your funny bone, slow for pain to come, then intense, an then gone in about 3-5 mins). Heck I skiied the rest of the Afternoon (another hour and a half), and it didn't hurt in the Hot Tub last night while sitting on the ledge. But when I woke up this morning I couldn't sit at the breakfast table. So work tonight will be interesting, I think I might get a hemmroid doughnut at the pharmacy. 7 hrs in front of a terminal, Yipeee, OUCH!

I think I might have a picture of it too, my friend's not sure if he got it or not. I'll post it if it comes through.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
 

CasualCat2001

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ouch....no medical knowledge disclaimer, yada yada... but it sounds like you bruised your tail bone...I've done that before and it hurts like hell...
 

Sarke

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hehe, damn something is really pissing you of today....

OK, this will be my last post on the subject.

Firstly, if we are talking real world economics, then it is almost impossible to talk about one without the other. Macro- and microeconomics are intertwined and one affects the other. CasualCat2001 was talking more about microeconomics (production costs shares etc.) while I was talking just plain old supply & demand (macro).
If you want me to re-read my definition (well, it was Webster’s...) of microeconomics then you are probably referring to the prices part. Macro: the prices when talking about supply and demand in the general marketplace. Micro: the prices when talking about how a corp. set it's prices based on production costs etc. But I would say that you have seniority as you are an economist (and I merely a humble insurance and financial advisor ;). But who the F#(K cares?

And I knew that communism reference would bite me in the ass! hehe, I was just using an extreme example to make a joke. I know full well how monopolies and social democracies work (and yes, even Factors of Scale, a nice impressive textbook term).

But as I said earlier, don't take everything word for word. And you don't have to try and outshine EVERYBODY hehe. Let's just let this one die, ok?

Where do you ski btw? Ever been to Whistler (B.C. Canada)?

I'll be checking the Other forum from now on....
 
First off, yeah, discussing 'work' in a graphics forum is a little annoying, but I'm still not 'pissed off'.

Don't bother with the 'Others' unless you want me to explain it there. I still disagree with what you are saying, remember supply and demand is the basis for both (most economics), it's just supply and demand of 'what' (labour, money markets, raw material, not just product/input/output); however it doesn't matter THAT much, and I think you are simply confused. It's not a big deal, but considering it's what I do, it's one of those things that it would be like me coming in here and explaining particle physics and making mistakes (despite my knowledge of science/physics).
If this were an economics forum then I wouldn't care about it, but it's a graphics forum and when people discuss, this isn't this but that in economics and make a mistake it's annoying. Throw general terms around all you like, just don't define the terms incorrectly when trying to put someone down (which is what the original post seemed to convey [even by the person it was directed at]), which may not have been your intent .
Anywhhoo, whatever, it's dead.

Yes, I have been to Whistler many times, my best friend used to go to SFU, and we'd go to Baker and Whistler/Blackomb. Blackomb is my fav. and Sudan Couloir (now known as couloir extreme) is my favourite along with Seventh Heaven.

Since I live in Calgary (I'm only at the UofC because of the skiing) I mainly ski; Fernie, Lake Louise, Sunshine, Nakiska , and for glade skiing or skiing with newbie skiers Fortress. I hit Panorama, Wintergreen and Marmot Basin once each this year, but the above are my main haunts. Oh yeah and I did Blue Mountain and MtStlouis Moonstone and Earl Bayle's [yeah radical 120ft vertical! :smile: ] during x-mas break. I had an RCR superpass this year which is good for every hill in the interior rockies except Sunshine. I even got my passsigned by Ken Read at Nakiska during a CIBC function (Mmm, free stuff and open bar, I'm there! But I still don't want to work for ya'.).



- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK
 

phial

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the real question is .....


to live or die




really its more important that fuking graphics cards companies... god almighty~!

-------

<A HREF="http://www.xgr.com" target="_new">XGR-Game Reviews</A>

"You change the channel, and you change our minds..." - System of a Down
 

Sarke

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Hehe, and this all started cuz I was sick of ppl flaming each other cuz they are too horny for one or the other... maybe i should stick to one sentance questions instead?

And yeah, it's been a while since I took econimics and I don't talk economics theory with my clients :|
 

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