ATi, s3, matrox, PowerVR vs. Nvidia, 3dfx

[Guest]

are you working for nvidia or ati ???
lol

yes nviia will sell 1 million of geforce 3....
and get with it 600 million dollares
hahahhahahhahaha
kyro will win
why?
because the majoraty of the people is smart...
and will buy the best product
(price/performance)

 

[Guest]

don't get me wrong i'm no huge supporter of any of the graphics companies, but as far as the register reporting on the badmouthing also, i believe the headline was followed by several question marks. could be wrong but after reading their take thes seemed to indicate skeptisism of authenticity (although they also seemed to have possible reasons why it could be a valid source)

--

either way what does it matter if they did or didn't. it wasn't meant for us anyway... i talk sh!t all the time with many my friends but nobody complains that i'm a bad person.

also tile based rendering isn't all that impressive now anyway. as mentioned ati has had technology to accomplish the same end result (via different means) for quite a while now. the geforce3 has similar technology as well. as these technologies mature they will be no less effective than TBR. so it is not like the kyro card is so ground breaking just a different, if more advanced (as it should since it comes much later than it's competitors version), way of doing what other companies have already been doing at least the current ati cards have T&L to compliment their technology.

with the logic that buying $90-$190 card for today's games because tomorrow's games don't matter i might as well go buy diamond stealth card so i can play ultima and just tap into all the other great games that i didn't discover as a kid that don't need powerful cards. in fact i migh just upgrade to a 486 while i'm at it.

no insults intended... just in a bad mood and having some fun

 

[HolyGrenade]

Well put.

I think ATI's one is called Hyper-Z and nVidia/3DFX one is called Z-Occulsion or something.

Anyway, What do you think of my proposed new sig:

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper its written on."


<i><b><font color=red>"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"</font color=red></b></i>

 

[Guest]

The TBR efectivness of radeon is nowhere near that of a kyro...
they still need DDR !!!
even with DDR the fill rate is far from that of a kyro 2 (that uses SDR by the way)...

when this card is on the street and we see all the benchmark etc.. with final drivers we will see what I am trying to say here...

We will see a card that appears to gather fill rate if a scene get more complexity...or FSAA or 1600x1200 in 32 bits...
that can't be said to a traditional card...

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/07/01 04:10 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

hum...
that is like comparing realvideo to mpeg-4/divx and saying that the compression ratio is identical

 

[HolyGrenade]

No... ...I don't think it is...


<i><b><font color=red>"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"</font color=red></b></i>

 

[Guest]

look at this http://www.rivastation.com/review/3dprophet_4500/3dprophet_4500_7.htm

at 1600x1200 at 32 bits on evolva with T&L enabled:
Kyro 2 44,9 fps
geforce 2 gts 37,5 fps
radeon ddr 37 fps
geforce mx 19,3 fps

let do some math ok ?
if we have a sdr ram at 175 mhz with a chip that is 175 why the hell can achieve better than a radeon clocked higher and with ddr ???
where is the hyper-z stuff
ha???

with alpha drivers
LOL
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/07/01 08:03 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

here http://www.rivastation.com/review/3dprophet_4500/3dprophet_4500_10.htm

MDK2 (OpenGL + HW Lightning)

look kyro does not do well on low definitions
(well 76 fps in 800x600 is good for me)
800x600 16 bits
kyro 2 76 fps
radeon ddr 118 fps
geforce 2 gts 165 fps
geforce 2 mx 136 fps
whell mx is winning here
but... yap 76 is good enough...
let's improve the quality say 800x600 at 32 bits
kyro 2 75 fps
geforce 2 gts 140 fps
radeon ddr 110 fps
geforce MX 87 fps

???why the hell we got the same results funny....
(what can we say 75 fps is good enough)

let we improve a little more
say 1600x1200 at 32 bits
kyro 2 42 fps
geforce 2 gts 32 fps
radeon ddr 31 fps
geforce mx 21 fps


the only playable card at this QUALITY is kyro
IN A T&L GAME !!!!

this would be the same with FSAA enabled the best would be kyro...
not bad for a 150 US$ part ha ???


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/07/01 08:48 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[HolyGrenade]

Funny how these happen to be the only games where the kyro 2 is doing better than the other games.

And even then In all the resolutions except the highest ones at 32 bits per pixel, the T&L cards win over the Kyro 2. This shows the power of a T&L Engine over Software Geometry and Lighting even on a 1.5 GHz p4 and a 1.2GHz tbird.

The loss at the 1600x1200x32 is due to the memory bandwidth and nothing to do with the T&L. This is due to the HSR feature of the Kyro II (Tile based Rendering). The Radeon HSR (Hyper Z) is switched off by default, but can be activated in the registry. It wans't so in this review. The GeForce 2 Cards do not have this feature.

The Kyro II did ouperform the other by about 20% at 1600x1200x32 (in only two games, both of which are over a year old), and I would kinda agree with you in saying its not bad for a $150 card. But, it still isn't a brilliant card.

I do all my game playing at 1024x768. Anything above that and my monitor will switch to 75Hz or below. At this resolution, the other cards seemed way more appealing.

And btw, I thought you said Software Geometry and lighting on a 1GHz CPU is 10 times faster than T&L. And, wasn't the Kyro II supposed to 'blow away' the competition? I wonder where all of that is?

See you seem to be concentrating on the minute benchmarks that actually support the Kyro 2, yet ignore the vast amount of benchmarks that go against. I've alwas said it is a decent card for its price, the only thing is they only released it six months too late. And, A lot has happened in those six months.


<i><b><font color=red>"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"</font color=red></b></i>

 

[Guest]

where are those others reviews ?
please tell us !!!
I can't find any that goes against kyro 2 ...
I wonder why...


nevertheless we need more reviews !!

Tom are you reading this ???

Do you prefer to have 200 fps at 640x480 and 20 fps at 1280x1024 at 32 bits or do you prefer to have
70 fps at 640x480 and 50 fps at 1280x1024 at 32 bits ?

do you enjoy playing at 200 fps in 640x480 more than playing at 70 fps ???
Do you enjoy playing at 1600x1200 32 bits at 14 fps more than playing at 40 fps ??

do you prefer no FSAA or FSAA on ???
at 1024x768 you could turn FSAA on the kyro 2 ...
try that with a geforce!!!
lol

one advantage of kyro is that the average frame rate is identical to the lower frame rate achieved , where some cards in some (more complex) scenes go below 15 the kyro smile at that ... one can say that a game with 25 fps(average=lower fps achieved on kyro) with a kyro is more playable than a game with 40 fps (average) with a geforce...
So you see the future tells that the bandwidth problem is MORE CRITICAL than the T&L thing...

BUT I would agree with you GEFORCE 3 is still better...

 

[HolyGrenade]

70 vs 20?
40 vs 14?

Where the hell did you get those numbers?
Besides you've already conceded, you'll no longer be getting the Kyro II.


<i><b><font color=red>"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"</font color=red></b></i>

 

[Guest]

But I have a kyro I !!!!

please read my last posts...
I only was trying to get my point trough...
see the results of evolva... or 3dmark with T&L

 

[HolyGrenade]

In the rivastation reviews:
Kyro 2 fails in hi-res mercedes benz truck racing, and in Aquanox. Doesn't do too well in Quake 3. Only outperforms the T&L cards in two (over a year old) games at Extremely Hi-res. Anyone who wants resolutions that high will want way higher framerates than 30fps. Also, they wouldn't appreciate it failing in new games at high resolutions.

*LOL!!!*




<i><b><font color=red>"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"</font color=red></b></i>

 

[Guest]

from the same review (rivastation)
please translate theirs conclusion please...

Die 3D Prophet 4500 bietet praktisch GTS Performance zum MX Preis.

I don't know german...
but maybe..
they are saying that we get GTS performance with the price of a mx ???
but...
I don't know german

LLLLLLOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL

 

[Guest]

I went to altavista and translate this sentence taken from the article:

"Insgesammt bleibt nur eines zu sagen: Eine Top Karte zu einem Top Preis, bei dem man kaum etwas falsch machen kann! Die 3D Prophet 4500 bietet praktisch GTS Performance zum MX Preis."

after altavista:
Insgesammt remains saying only one: A Top card to a Top price, with which one can make somewhat false hardly! The 3d Prophet 4500 offers practically GTS performance to the MX price.

A very VERY different conclusion from yours ...
Do you say that these germans are liers ??
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/07/01 11:17 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

T&L is like 3dnow ...
a nice feature if it's well implemented...
all the cards that uses that T&L must have sufficient fill rate (bandwidth)... and I think geforce is not one of those !!!
I am not talking about geforce 3...

 

[HolyGrenade]

Still, You seem to strive on its alleged hi-res performance, Which is higher than other cards in two games that were released over a year ago. But, It CRASHES in hi-res in new games. So, your claims seem to fail right there!

<i>"Do you say that these germans are liers ??"</i>
HMM.....

<i>"T&L is like 3dnow ...
a nice feature if it's well implemented"</i>
Where are your claims about GeForce 1 & 2 actually not having usable T&L?


<i><b><font color=red>"2 is not equal to 3, not even for large values of 2"</font color=red></b></i><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by holygrenade on 04/08/01 01:30 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Grizely1]

yes, that means "The 3D Prophet 4500 offers practically GTS performance for MX price"

-----------------
"All alone in his own little world"

 

[noko]

Well then a GF2 especially a GF2 pro would probably be a better deal then a KyroII, right?

<font color=blue>
Leadtek Winfast Geforce 2 Pro GTS 32MB 5.5ns DDR RAM 4X AGP Video Card with TV Out-with 32MB 5.5ns DDR memory is running at standard 200/366 Mhz (Core/memory) speed. That translated to about 20% performance increase over the original GeForce2 GTS.</font color=blue> <b>PRICE: $155 delivered to your door step (US).</b>

<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=48&manufactory=1280" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=48&manufactory=1280</A>

When the KyroII is released it will be competing in the same price range as GF2 Pros and Radeon 64s, it better do better than both of those cards to make it.

 

[Guest]

the price should be the same as geforce mx...
I think that will happen (we have to wait some days after the release).
at what price did the hercules MX arrived to the market?

here in portugal I buy the cheapiest geforce MX for 150 us$

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/08/01 02:51 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[noko]

That may be true, but right now the prices are rapidily decreasing for the GF2 cards. MX's are going for less than $100 here in the states on the internet as well as Radeon VE and LE. Radeon 64 is going for $169 and by the end of the month probably be in the $150 range. The 3d Prophet 4500 initial cost will be close to its list price until it is fully delievered, which I estimate will take two months. Don't know the cost of the KyroII card will be in Portugal. In other words there will be alot of competition in the $150 range market which will hopefully drive down the prices even more for everybody. I do believe that the KyroII chip is cheaper to build and to buy which means that the KyroII boards could be sold cheaper than the DDR boards and still make more money for the manufactuers. So KyroII will help in keeping all the prices down.