ATi trying too hard?

[IzzyCraft]

bawhaha fanboy bashing. by Nvidia wrong but by ATI fan boys so right. By the way nice 2 dragons doing hyper beam pic

My post was obviously mostly a joke

Nvidia is worth the same as AMD, AMD has cpu's and gpus to make
In terms of assets and worth and market share Nvidia is most likely winning.

Really the issue here is the large gap between release i don't really remeber it being like err

5xxx was lauched 2 weeks ago so i'll say a month im horrible judging time

And nvidia at best is said to be around Christmas

step, oct, nov, dec.

4 months is a large gap to me as far as i remember the usual is like 1 or 2 months max.

Saying the company totally better then the other due to an earlier release of the next round of crap esp in the tech industry is mostly a load of crap things change to quickly.

Nvidia and ATI are fine companies competing with each other in the dedicated gpu market as they should be. We been lucky so far as Nvidia and ATI are pretty even in market share although nvidia is a bit ahead so the competition has been good, unlike fail face AMD who totally lost by 2006 ish it's chance to really take on intel.

ATI: Has a newer gen card a good solid time before nvidia's realize that is what they have going for them a good few months of unquestionable performance on it's competitor too bad a few months don't make up the majority of sales esp in the dedicated card sector. It's good for ATI, ATI is behind a bit by my estimate and a few more bucks should help them be a stronger company more competition better cards and more suicides! j/k on the suicides oh but who knows more competition more stress on the competitors woot tangent
end

 

[randomizer]

It's called marketing. Usually it's full of BS (whether true or false), you should know that. Companies will throw dirt whenever they can to demote the competition. If you saw how much the two largest and most competitive free-to-air TV stations in Australia bashed the crap out of each other, you'd find this quite mild.

 

[hallowed_dragon]

I am not trying to be a fanboy of any company, but I do hate when other people just dismiss things out of pure fanboism. And Izzycraft, I wasn't referring to you. This forum is mostly composed of people who see the value of a good card no matter from that company it is.
Try going to anandtech and watch how the nVidia support group nVidiots smash and bash any logical argument regarding ATI and their leadership of the current market (even some moderators 😱 do that). From my point of view the Fermi cards will be a disappointment no matter how much performance they bring to the table because due to the large die size and the technology packed in them they will probably cost an arm and a leg.
No matter how you turn it, ATI is leading the market today with a good product lineup which brings performance at an affordable price and for once I wish I could see this as a recognized fact by the nVidia fans.

 

[michaelmk86]

(yeah the 295 is still better if you want drops from 200 FPS to 0 FPS)

ATIFanboy alert!!!

 

[hallowed_dragon]

ATIFanboy alert!!!

Thank you for your quick and productive labeling 😛 . I was just trying to highlight the problem with dual GPU cards - lame ### problem with min FPS, this applies to the 4870x2, 9800x2 and 3870x2. I just used the 295 as an example because it so far the fastest GPU on the market (until driver updates and 5950 or 5970). Your insightful post and really strong arguments really opened my eyes at the discussion

 

[michaelmk86]

I was just trying to highlight the problem with dual GPU cards - lame ### problem with min FPS

That is a myth that needs to die.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd5870.html
As you can see the GTX295 get higher min fps than every single card on these benchmarks, except at 2560x1600 because of the small amount of memory 2x896. 😉

 

[hallowed_dragon]

That is a myth that needs to die.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd5870.html
As you can see the GTX295 get higher min fps than every single card on these benchmarks, except at 2560x1600 because of the small amount of memory 2x896. 😉

Is that the case here?
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...phire-radeon-hd-5870-1gb-gddr5-review-11.html
Isn't the 275 896 MB too? Or the 260? And FYI we are talking high end so we are referring only to resolutions of 19x12 or higher 😛 The problem is that low min FPS affect dual GPU cards. So I think that a single GPU card close in performance with a dual GPU card will always be the best choice (no matter if the single GPU card is nVidia or ATI)

 

[michaelmk86]

I have to disagree with you here.
The new generations dual GPU (4870x2, GTX295) do not suffer from min fps, on the other hand the old (9800GX2, 3870x2) have problems min fps.
In the benchmark that you show me the 4870x2 get higher min fps than the 5870.
Also the GTX295 get double the min fps than the GTX260, except at 2560x1600(really the GTX295 sucks at this resolution).

 

[hallowed_dragon]

I have to disagree with you here.
The new generations dual GPU (4870x2, GTX295) do not suffer from min fps, on the other hand the old (9800GX2, 3870x2) have problems min fps.
In the benchmark that you show me the 4870x2 get higher min fps than the 5870.
Also the GTX295 get double the min fps than the GTX260, except at 2560x1600(really the GTX295 sucks at this resolution).

Ok then, so what you are saying is that dual GPU cards don't have a problem with min FPS, only the flagship video card of nVidia sucks at enthusiast resolutions (target market for the card). You are still proving my point that at this moment nVidia doesn't have anything to fight ATI. 😗

 

[michaelmk86]

Ok then, so what you are saying is that dual GPU cards don't have a problem with min FPS, only the flagship video card of nVidia sucks at enthusiast resolutions (target market for the card).

No the target market for this card is 1920x1200, very few people have monitors with 2560x1600.

You are still proving my point that at this moment nVidia doesn't have anything to fight ATI. 😗

I thought that the argument was between dual GPU vs single GPU not nvidia vs ati…

 

[Harrisson]

If ATI were soo ahead of the game and their products are soo great etc...Then why are they trying their hardest to get HD5xxx series out the door?

To me it sounds like AMD is cacking their pants...

ATI looks to be getting as many cards out the door as possible before Nvidia's Fermi hits the shelves...releasing mainstream and high end cards so closely together isnt the norm? Is this because they fear what Fermi brings?? Will their cards suddenly become inferior?? This is what it looks like theyre thinking to me?

Trolling much? AMD is simply taking over GPUs market while they can. I dont know if they fear Fermi, should they? Do they fear Larrabee too? 😉 We have no idea how good (or bad) Fermi will be, so instead of fearing of the unknown, AMD takes as much share and profit as they reasonably can. When competition arrives (Fermi/Larrabee/PowerVR, whatever), they'll adjust. Its much easier to do when you are leader, and winning across all markets, with cheap to manufacture cards.

Theyre saying 'oooo look they are some DX11 games coming soon so BUY NOW NOW NOW!!!'

But again, their cards are great and better than the competition, right? so why be soo pushy?

What would you do in AMD place? "Dont buy our cards! No rush, wait for competition to arrive sometime in the future!" 😛

Remember the last time Nvidia introduced ne architecture? YEP, the G80??? It was an absolubte GEM and crapped all over the competiton!! Are ATI fearing this all over again???

I mean the 5850 and 5870 arent exactly a great achivement are they? The 5850 barely beats the GTX 285 and the 5870 is about 20-30% faster...not a great achivement is it?

I dont get it... G80 was a gem, and yet lost to GX2, 5870 is a gem... but is losing to X2. Noticing the pattern? With drivers updates G80 eventually managed to outperform GX2, while 5870 is also lagging behind by a small margin, nothing drivers wouldnt fix. If you go for the extreme settings (2560 with 8xAA), 5870 beats GTX295 handily already.

So, say, Nvidia double the GTX 280 performance to get GTX380....this is gonna dominate ...about 30-40% faster AT LEAST. But Nvida have MORE than doubled the Cores....to 512? So maybe even faster STILL. And what if this new architecture is like the G80 and throws out great results....that makes it even faster STILL. Surley this spells trouble for ATI???

ATI are playing dirty...even when theyre on top...jus seems strange to me????

opinions please...

We dont know how fast Fermi will be, doubling doesnt mean doubling of performance, plus its new architecture, plus a lot of silicon will be spend on GPGPU, which rarely will translate to better gaming performance as well. So we dont know anything regarding Fermi gaming performance, and even though I wouldnt be surprised if it would be faster than 5870, how about 5870 X2? Fermi X2 will be much harder to do, and if they cut down too much, will it be faster than competition? Lets not forget Nvidia will release bigger quantities by the time AMD will have refresh ready (5890?), how it will fair then? Its all question marks and no answers atm.

About being dirty, AMD is nowhere near Nvidia level, and those slides to quote Kyle from HardOCP: "I am not going to editorialize a lot here except to say I find very little I can disagree with AMD on this. "

 

[hallowed_dragon]

No the target market for this card is 1920x1200, very few people have monitors with 2560x1600.



I thought that the argument was between dual GPU vs single GPU not nvidia vs ati…

My initial argument was about the state in which nVidia is in the current market. You started to prove me that the current GPU cards don't have a min FPS problem, except the 295 at 25x16. Second if you start comparing cards at 1920x1200 we can put 2 cards in Crossfire/SLI for less than the 295 with better performance, so maybe that resolution is not the cards' target, but the 25x16 resolution with another 295 in SLI. Because some people only follow the herd the 295 became a 19x12 card, although at that resolution there are better solutions for gaming.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

No the target market for this card is 1920x1200, very few people have monitors with 2560x1600.

Except for the people who would buy a GTX295, where a 2560x1600 LCD would be more common than for those looking at single or mid-range cards. What's your argument for that; "the GTX295 is a great card for more money (or worse $600 at launch)... unless you want to play at the highest settings, then you should buy the cheaper single GPU card" ?

I thought that the argument was between dual GPU vs single GPU not nvidia vs ati…

It's both, or were you not reading the thread you're posting in, or the ?
You even say it yourself, the GTX295 seems to have the min fps issue (plus the 0 fps issue), something that doesn't happen as pronounced on the HD4K dual GPU solution, or do you not understand what you yourself write?

The 0 fps issue whatever the reason for it (not enough memory, poor drivers, whatever), the result is still 0 fps as he mentioned;
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422-12.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422-13.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422-17.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422-19.html

That's alot of 0 fps, which is why the comment is accurate even if there is a favouritism in it, whereas your reply offers nothing but fanboi angst. which I gues is keeping in line with the original theme of this thread. :lol:

The fact is however that performance drops happen on both;
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/09/23/ait-radeon-hd-5870-1gb-review/5

It's rarer to see 0 fps on the HD4K solution than on the nVidia solutions, where this drop even happens on single GPU solutions that have the same amount of memory as their counterparts;

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/19.html
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/21.html
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/10.html

Also stop being so obtuse, you didn't read and post in this thread because it's about dual GPUs, that's just the 'in' you decided to latch on to as if you had something to counter the statement of low fps, but in fact you only proved him right, and tried to explain it off with the lame 'low memory' answer, which is obviously a poor excuse that doesn't prove out by tests.

 

[TheViper]

Someone fix the thread title to "Smoggy12345 Trying Too Hard".

Smoggy, every point you bring up is quite dubious. It's as though you're trying so hard to find fault with anything ATi is doing that you've lost overall context completely.

 

[witcherx]

Kudos to AMd/Ati for bringing a great EE price/performance product

 

[shadow187]

AMD is only doing what is obvious and predictable for a company.

 

[boudy]

A company taking cheap shots? trying to sell their products? Whatever shall we do!
Seriously, Smoggy, you aren't saying that AMD/ATI needs to allow Nvidia to have some more market share...are you? That would be laughable..

 

[crosko42]

Well I give up reading threads in this forum about ATI vs NVid. People are just too stubborn to admit anything against their favorite company.

Every company does marketing like this. Get over it.

Until GT300's come out, Nvid is losing.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16029/1/

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/10/14/amd_briefing_eric_demers

Is it just me or are ATI trying their hardest to Slag off Nvidia!?

If ATI were soo ahead of the game and their products are soo great etc...Then why are they trying their hardest to get HD5xxx series out the door?

To me it sounds like AMD is cacking their pants...

ATI looks to be getting as many cards out the door as possible before Nvidia's Fermi hits the shelves...releasing mainstream and high end cards so closely together isnt the norm? Is this because they fear what Fermi brings?? Will their cards suddenly become inferior?? This is what it looks like theyre thinking to me?

Theyre saying 'oooo look they are some DX11 games coming soon so BUY NOW NOW NOW!!!'

But again, their cards are great and better than the competition, right? so why be soo pushy?

They're presentation is petty and has some rediculas comparisons (ie 1600cores vs 512cores) as this is not relevant at all to actual performance! They try to point out everything bad about Fermi....Why bother if theyre soo confident in their new cards?!

Remember the last time Nvidia introduced ne architecture? YEP, the G80??? It was an absolubte GEM and crapped all over the competiton!! Are ATI fearing this all over again???

I mean the 5850 and 5870 arent exactly a great achivement are they? The 5850 barely beats the GTX 285 and the 5870 is about 20-30% faster...not a great achivement is it?

ATI doubled 4870 specs (approx.) to get 5870...right? Which gives rougly double pefromance.

So, say, Nvidia double the GTX 280 performance to get GTX380....this is gonna dominate ...about 30-40% faster AT LEAST. But Nvida have MORE than doubled the Cores....to 512? So maybe even faster STILL. And what if this new architecture is like the G80 and throws out great results....that makes it even faster STILL. Surley this spells trouble for ATI???

ATI are playing dirty...even when theyre on top...jus seems strange to me????

opinions please...

OK, lets start from the top.
Why is ATI trying soo hard? Hmmm.. maybe they DO have the only DX11 cards out, and its a great advantage, and their price/perf is currently unachievable by the competition?
Getting as many cards out the door, with people complaining about availability means: theyre selling like hotcakes, no wonder theyre trying so hard, they have obviously something great to offer at decent pricing, and again, with no competition.
Fear, Uncertaintity and Doubt. Oh noes!!!
Yes, its obvious that ATI is fearful of fermi, thats why theyre selling soo many cards they cant keep up.
Yes, ATI is saying, lets all move along now, since weve had DX10.1 for quite awhile now, and its time to move on, forget about DX9.
Yes, push progress ahead, or stay where we are? Hmmm... I know what I want, do you?
Yes, their shaders are different than nVidias, and had advantages/disadvantages depending on game, and yes again, their presentation is dont on real cards, with their employees holding real silicon.
Yes, I too thi9nk they should just crawl under a rock with 1 hand sticking up holding a real DX11 card, waving it in the air, thatd help sales for sure.
Yes, the poor old 5850 whips the poorer and older 285. And yes, the 5870 is only some 30% faster than the older, poorer 285, and has more functionality as well.
Oh yes, nVidias 30% is ALOT more than ATIs 30%, as in, the 5870s 30% vs the 30% fermi vaporwares
Yes, theyre in trouble, and its all TSMCs fault, as they seem to not be able to make enough to keep the stores fed with cards.
Yes, ATI is playing dirty, as Im just SURE theyre paying outside devs money to crack AA and Physx usage on Batman AA, just to spite nVidia, not that good ol nVidia would EVER do such a thing when theyre on top.
And finally, this for sure looks like a trouncing, but I wonder, whos doing the trouncing?

 

[smoggy12345]

OK, lets start from the top.
Why is ATI trying soo hard? Hmmm.. maybe they DO have the only DX11 cards out, and its a great advantage, and their price/perf is currently unachievable by the competition?
Getting as many cards out the door, with people complaining about availability means: theyre selling like hotcakes, no wonder theyre trying so hard, they have obviously something great to offer at decent pricing, and again, with no competition.
Fear, Uncertaintity and Doubt. Oh noes!!!
Yes, its obvious that ATI is fearful of fermi, thats why theyre selling soo many cards they cant keep up.
Yes, ATI is saying, lets all move along now, since weve had DX10.1 for quite awhile now, and its time to move on, forget about DX9.
Yes, push progress ahead, or stay where we are? Hmmm... I know what I want, do you?
Yes, their shaders are different than nVidias, and had advantages/disadvantages depending on game, and yes again, their presentation is dont on real cards, with their employees holding real silicon.
Yes, I too thi9nk they should just crawl under a rock with 1 hand sticking up holding a real DX11 card, waving it in the air, thatd help sales for sure.
Yes, the poor old 5850 whips the poorer and older 285. And yes, the 5870 is only some 30% faster than the older, poorer 285, and has more functionality as well.
Oh yes, nVidias 30% is ALOT more than ATIs 30%, as in, the 5870s 30% vs the 30% fermi vaporwares
Yes, theyre in trouble, and its all TSMCs fault, as they seem to not be able to make enough to keep the stores fed with cards.
Yes, ATI is playing dirty, as Im just SURE theyre paying outside devs money to crack AA and Physx usage on Batman AA, just to spite nVidia, not that good ol nVidia would EVER do such a thing when theyre on top.
And finally, this for sure looks like a trouncing, but I wonder, whos doing the trouncing?

Finally someone who understands my post! Its all about the what ifs and a discussion!!! Im pointing out possibilities here and asked for other peoples opinions...but you knobs got soo caught up in defending ATI...i ask you who is the fanboy?? And im sick of this fanboy *** i dont care about either company...if ATI had a card that crapped all over Nvidia's last gen i would be praising them. But to have a Top end (5850) card be on par (or just over) than the competitions last gen is not an achievement!

Greatgrape or whatever your name is....arrogant as always....love how you assume how every1 else is wrong... All that moderating power getting to your head? Maybe your the one who's naive, u cant communicate with people! Your attitude STINKS.

 

[hunter315]

Raw power always comes at a price, the 5xxx series is a huge achievement, you can get 2 5850s which give you twice as much gaming potential for only 45% more than the cheapest GTX285 newegg has, use only 25% more power than a single GTX285, provides better performance than 2 while using 76% of the power, has the ability to support up to 6 monitors in the near future, has full support for the newest directx. How is getting all of that in your second tier card not an achievement?

nVidia is putting a lot of work into the GPGPU market for super computers and massive parrallel processing applications, which while you can sell massively expensive cards there to people with research grants, that added functionality will generate more heat, restrict the die area that can be used for pure GPU functionality, and increase the cost to offset R&D costs.

As it stands now there arent any reviewers who have even gotten their hands on one so we have no way to know how it will perform or if it will even beat the 5xxx series in super computing apps, the added SPs should allow for better parallel processing. Im pretty sure it will beat a GTX295, but i think it will also end up costing as much if not more. If the 5870X2 comes out before it then fermi wont stand a chance.

 

[itheral]

Oh no jaydeejohn.. You fed Smoggy and gave him inappropriate hope that he is right.. Oh noes!

As for GGA, I fail to see how anything he has said could be disputed?

Besides the G80 ~doubling the performance of the 79xx series, a 40-50% rise over last gen's best card is quite normal.

Will Fermi be stronger than 58xx series? Likely. By how much? I would bet ~same as the difference between the 48xx and the GTX200 Series. But, ATI would have already had the door open for months, which allows them better options price-wise down the line. I could almost guarantee better price/performance for ATI for awhile at least.

 

[smoggy12345]

Oh no jaydeejohn.. You fed Smoggy and gave him inappropriate hope that he is right.. Oh noes!

As for GGA, I fail to see how anything he has said could be disputed?

Besides the G80 ~doubling the performance of the 79xx series, a 40-50% rise over last gen's best card is quite normal.

Will Fermi be stronger than 58xx series? Likely. By how much? I would bet ~same as the difference between the 48xx and the GTX200 Series. But, ATI would have already had the door open for months, which allows them better options price-wise down the line. I could almost guarantee better price/performance for ATI for awhile at least.

That im right about what?! Im tryin to make a discussion? Im not trying to say this is whats happening ...i was asking for peoples opinions! ignorant ****

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Im just saying it the way I see it.
Sarcasm doesnt play well on the net, so some may have gotten a few things wrong.

 

[brockh]

Oh no jaydeejohn.. You fed Smoggy and gave him inappropriate hope that he is right.. Oh noes!

As for GGA, I fail to see how anything he has said could be disputed?

Besides the G80 ~doubling the performance of the 79xx series, a 40-50% rise over last gen's best card is quite normal.

Will Fermi be stronger than 58xx series? Likely. By how much? I would bet ~same as the difference between the 48xx and the GTX200 Series. But, ATI would have already had the door open for months, which allows them better options price-wise down the line. I could almost guarantee better price/performance for ATI for awhile at least.

Since when is it debatable that the GTX200 series is far and above better than the 48xx series? Each company has a competitive card with no clear winner in basically every segment besides the GTX 285 (but it's at a ridiculous price point and the HD 4890 beats it sometimes). Even the 4870X2 competes with the GTX 295 decently.