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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

My elver Ranger just hit Minetown bones level.

Glurp the Trailblazer St:16 Dx:9 Co:17 In:14 Wi:14 Ch:7
Chaotic
Dlvl:5 $:0 HP:41(61) Pw:56(56) AC:-9 Xp:8/2481 T:5061

Some Rogue experienced YASD at the hands of a carnivorous
ape and an ettin mummy. Well, the ape and the mummy were
easily dealt with, but...

Hello Glurp, the elven Ranger, welcome back to NetHack!
What do you want to use or apply? [acK or ?*] c
In what direction? 7
Status of Xtathl (chaotic): Level 12 HP 122(124) AC -15

--
roy axenov
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
> >If you had worn the speed boots, you could have easily outrun the
> >mastodon.
> >
> >I even believe that *without* the speed boots, you could have outrun
> >and killed the mastodon. Ther're slower than you are, I believe.
>
> Mastodons are slower than fast or very fast players, and the same
> speed as normal speed players. So, in this case (elven ranger), yes,
> the player is faster.

JPD didn't state what role/race his char was. Mine is an elven ranger,
indeed, but, anyway, I don't think rangers get intrinsic speed. They
only seem to get searching from the start, stealth at Clvl:7 and see
invisible at Clvl:15.

--
roy axenov
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"roy axenov" <r_axenov@mail.ru> was moved to say:

>My elver Ranger just hit Minetown bones level.
>

On a similar note, I have just left some goodies on mines level 10,
but the lucky person to find it will have to work around the mastadon
that killed me.

IN an earlier post, I mentioned my +5 cloack of magic resistance.
It's there, and the speed boots are in the bag of holding (the elven
boots were on my feet, and the +3 elven shield was on my other hand).

AC -12 and I still got butted to death in four moves.

--

JPD


SGFN
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Tommi Syrjanen wrote:
> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> writes:
>
> > I even believe that *without* the speed boots, you could have
> > outrun and killed the mastodon. Ther're slower than you are, I
> > believe.
>
> Unless the former owner of the pet was considerate enough to zap
> it with a wand of speed monster...
>
> (The one time I left a mastodon in a Bones Pile From Hell, it
> was hasted. Though, it wasn't exactly the greatest worry in that
> level since there was also hasted Yeenoghu at the upstairs and it
> was DL 8.)

Mastodons in The Mines are not necessarily someone's former pets.

28 10718 K'mon-Bar-Orc-Mal-Cha died in The Gnomish Mines on
level 6. Killed by a mastodon. - [72]

This one wasn't a pet - I don't have that nasty habit of taming
mastodons, and I'm the only one who plays NH on this particular box.

--
roy axenov
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

JPD wrote:

> On a similar note, I have just left some goodies on mines level 10,
> but the lucky person to find it will have to work around the mastadon
> that killed me.

> IN an earlier post, I mentioned my +5 cloack of magic resistance.
> It's there, and the speed boots are in the bag of holding (the elven
> boots were on my feet, and the +3 elven shield was on my other hand).

> AC -12 and I still got butted to death in four moves.

If you had worn the speed boots, you could have easily outrun the
mastodon.

I even believe that *without* the speed boots, you could have outrun and
killed the mastodon. Ther're slower than you are, I believe.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>If you had worn the speed boots, you could have easily outrun the
>mastodon.
>
>I even believe that *without* the speed boots, you could have outrun and
>killed the mastodon. Ther're slower than you are, I believe.

Mastodons are slower than fast or very fast players, and the same speed
as normal speed players. So, in this case (elven ranger), yes, the
player is faster.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"roy axenov" <r_axenov@mail.ru> wrote:
>JPD didn't state what role/race his char was. Mine is an elven ranger,
>indeed, but, anyway, I don't think rangers get intrinsic speed. They
>only seem to get searching from the start, stealth at Clvl:7 and see
>invisible at Clvl:15.

Ah. My brane is out of date, I see. Oops.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> writes:

> I even believe that *without* the speed boots, you could have outrun and
> killed the mastodon. Ther're slower than you are, I believe.

Unless the former owner of the pet was considerate enough to zap it
with a wand of speed monster...

(The one time I left a mastodon in a Bones Pile From Hell, it was
hasted. Though, it wasn't exactly the greatest worry in that level
since there was also hasted Yeenoghu at the upstairs and it was DL 8.)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"roy axenov" <r_axenov@mail.ru> was moved to say:

>
>Martin Read wrote:
>> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>> >If you had worn the speed boots, you could have easily outrun the
>> >mastodon.
>> >
>> >I even believe that *without* the speed boots, you could have outrun
>> >and killed the mastodon. Ther're slower than you are, I believe.
>>
>> Mastodons are slower than fast or very fast players, and the same
>> speed as normal speed players. So, in this case (elven ranger), yes,
>> the player is faster.
>
>JPD didn't state what role/race his char was.

Mine was a human tourist, and I had zapped myself with a wand of speed
monster, but in any case I was backed into a dead-end corridor.

--

JPD


SGFN
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, roy axenov wrote:
>
> >
> > Tommi Syrjanen wrote:
> > > (The one time I left a mastodon in a Bones Pile From Hell, it
> > > was hasted. Though, it wasn't exactly the greatest worry in
> > > that level since there was also hasted Yeenoghu at the upstairs
> > > and it was DL 8.)
> >
> > Mastodons in The Mines are not necessarily someone's former pets.
> >
> > 28 10718 K'mon-Bar-Orc-Mal-Cha died in The Gnomish Mines on
> > level 6. Killed by a mastodon. -
[72]
> >
> > This one wasn't a pet - I don't have that nasty habit of taming
> > mastodons, and I'm the only one who plays NH on this particular
> > box.
>
> I once had a Mumak chasing me over a whole mine level and
> eventually killing me near the stairs up while I tried once more to
> kill him. And I found him waiting for me in a bone file quite soon
> after that... But managed to kill him that second time.

Mumaks are almost common in The Mines.

13 19901 Kmon-Bar-Orc-Mal-Cha died in The Dungeons of Doom on
level 6 [max 7]. Killed by a mumak. -
[96]

Mastodons, though, are somewhat nastier:

(from http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/mon1-343.txt)

SPECIES LEV SPD AC MR RESISTS ATTACKS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
q mumak 5 9 0 0 4d12 2d6
q mastodon 20 12 5 0 4d8 4d8

> Cheers, your mastodon may kill you a second time!

Nah, I don't think I left the bones that time, and, anyway, it was
a few weeks ago. It would've already done that if it could.

--
roy axenov, killed by a mumak
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> begin quoting roy axenov <r_axenov@mail.ru>:
> >Mastodons, though, are somewhat nastier:
> >SPECIES LEV SPD AC MR RESISTS ATTACKS
> >q mumak 5 9 0 0 4d12 2d6
> >q mastodon 20 12 5 0 4d8 4d8
>
> Well, yes and no. Faster and tougher; but against a player with
> decent AC 4d8 4d8 is not as nasty as 4d12 2d6...

I dunno, but we're talking about The Mines. Only a protection
racketeer would have much less than -10..-15 AC there. And to
compensate for that, he wouldn't have the hitpoints 🙂 Mumakil
are trivial to outrun given the minimum room for maneuver.
Mastodons are *a bit* trickier.

--
roy axenov
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, roy axenov wrote:

>
> Tommi Syrjanen wrote:
> > "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> writes:
> >
> > > I even believe that *without* the speed boots, you could have
> > > outrun and killed the mastodon. Ther're slower than you are, I
> > > believe.
> >
> > Unless the former owner of the pet was considerate enough to zap
> > it with a wand of speed monster...
> >
> > (The one time I left a mastodon in a Bones Pile From Hell, it
> > was hasted. Though, it wasn't exactly the greatest worry in that
> > level since there was also hasted Yeenoghu at the upstairs and it
> > was DL 8.)
>
> Mastodons in The Mines are not necessarily someone's former pets.
>
> 28 10718 K'mon-Bar-Orc-Mal-Cha died in The Gnomish Mines on
> level 6. Killed by a mastodon. - [72]
>
> This one wasn't a pet - I don't have that nasty habit of taming
> mastodons, and I'm the only one who plays NH on this particular box.

I once had a Mumak chasing me over a whole mine level and eventually
killing me near the stairs up while I tried once more to kill him. And I
found him waiting for me in a bone file quite soon after that... But
managed to kill him that second time.

Cheers, your mastodon may kill you a second time!

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

begin quoting roy axenov <r_axenov@mail.ru>:
>Mastodons, though, are somewhat nastier:
>SPECIES LEV SPD AC MR RESISTS ATTACKS
>q mumak 5 9 0 0 4d12 2d6
>q mastodon 20 12 5 0 4d8 4d8

Well, yes and no. Faster and tougher; but against a player with decent AC,
4d8 4d8 is not as nasty as 4d12 2d6...
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Tuesday, March.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"roy axenov" <r_axenov@mail.ru> was moved to say:

>
>David Damerell wrote:
>> begin quoting roy axenov <r_axenov@mail.ru>:
>> >Mastodons, though, are somewhat nastier:
>> >SPECIES LEV SPD AC MR RESISTS ATTACKS
>> >q mumak 5 9 0 0 4d12 2d6
>> >q mastodon 20 12 5 0 4d8 4d8
>>
>> Well, yes and no. Faster and tougher; but against a player with
>> decent AC 4d8 4d8 is not as nasty as 4d12 2d6...
>
>I dunno, but we're talking about The Mines. Only a protection
>racketeer would have much less than -10..-15 AC there. And to
>compensate for that, he wouldn't have the hitpoints 🙂 Mumakil
>are trivial to outrun given the minimum room for maneuver.
>Mastodons are *a bit* trickier.

I has AC -12 and maxHP of about 80, as I recall, and it vanished
without trace twice in around six turns (I prayed halfway through this
fight). I had been a protection racketeer, but I had no pets alive by
this time (and no scrolls of taming either, as they had been used in
an earlier emergency).

A thought: My death-by-mastodon occurred on the Mine's End level. No
bones there, right?

--

JPD


SGFN
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
>
> begin quoting roy axenov <r_axenov@mail.ru>:
> >Mastodons, though, are somewhat nastier:
> >SPECIES LEV SPD AC MR RESISTS ATTACKS
> >q mumak 5 9 0 0 4d12 2d6
> >q mastodon 20 12 5 0 4d8 4d8
>
> Well, yes and no. Faster and tougher; but against a player with decent AC,
> 4d8 4d8 is not as nasty as 4d12 2d6...

4d8 4d8 would be 8 to 64 or 36 average (mastodon)
4d12 2d6 would be 6 to 60 or 33 average (mumak)

I'm not sure I follow. why would the mumak be better against
a good AC?

My experience is that when I first meet a mumak, I don't
have a great AC and could be easily killed by it in two
attacks. By the time I start meeting level 20 monsters my AC
is sufficient to make either a mastodon or a mumak trivial.
A mastodon in minetown would surely be more dangerous than a
mumak for my characters.
--
Wes
The early bird may get the worm,
but the second mouse gets the cheese.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Wes Irby <w_irby@hotmail.com> wrote:
>4d8 4d8 would be 8 to 64 or 36 average (mastodon)
>4d12 2d6 would be 6 to 60 or 33 average (mumak)
>
>I'm not sure I follow. why would the mumak be better against
>a good AC?

Negative AC degrades physical damage on a per-blow basis. Thus, with
negative AC, taking 8-64 as two lots of 4-32 is preferable to taking
6-60 as one lot of 4-48 and one lot of 2-12.

This is why a good AC so drastically degrades the effectiveness of
things like soldier ants; they do lots of damage, but it's spread
across three blows.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 11 Mar 2005 10:13:49 +0000 (GMT), also sprach Martin Read
<mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:

>Wes Irby <w_irby@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>4d8 4d8 would be 8 to 64 or 36 average (mastodon)
>>4d12 2d6 would be 6 to 60 or 33 average (mumak)
>>
>>I'm not sure I follow. why would the mumak be better against
>>a good AC?
>
>Negative AC degrades physical damage on a per-blow basis. Thus, with
>negative AC, taking 8-64 as two lots of 4-32 is preferable to taking
>6-60 as one lot of 4-48 and one lot of 2-12.

I was wondering what the dynamic between the two creatures' damages
would be at better and better AC's and ran some numbers. For small
negative AC's, the mastodon does more damage.

A quick examination. Let's say your AC is -10 and we're assuming the
critter successfully hits every time. Now the average damage done is:

|-------AC 0-------| |-------AC -10-------|
Range Avg Range Avg
Mastodon 4-32 + 4-32 36 0-22 + 0-22 16.123
Mumak 4-48 + 2-12 33 0-38 + 0-2 16.123

With an AC of -10, the difference between the damage they do is
negligible.

At an AC between 10 and -2, the mastodon will always average 3 points
more damage than the mumak. This difference narrows as your AC
approaches -10, where it is essentially zero. At better AC's than -10,
the gap widens in the mumak's favor, peaking at AC -19 (where the
mumak does nearly 5 points more damage than the mastodon), then
tapering off. At an AC of -31, the difference between the two is less
than one point. Of course, with an AC of -30, you're not really
worried about them at all unless you're passed out on the floor, as
they both have a negligible chance of doing any damage.

>This is why a good AC so drastically degrades the effectiveness of
>things like soldier ants; they do lots of damage, but it's spread
>across three blows.

You'd think I would have picked that up sometime in 12 years of
playing. Guess I should pay attention to mechanics more often...

--
Keiran
 
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