[SOLVED] B450 AM4 Motherboard with Ryzen 3rd Gen

dsdani352

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Hi. I'm planning to build a Ryzen 3rd generation setup. I was running a 4th generation Intel i5 PC, and I've sold it. So my problem here is, Ryzen won't be released until 2 more months or so, right? I'll have to keep my other pc components without working until then. So I was thinking, why not get an AM4 motherboard now with a Ryzen 3 1300 and upgrade the CPU alone when ryzen 3rd gen gets released. I'm looking at an MSI B450 motherboard. I know X570 and B550 boards are getting released. But would there be many differences between them and a B450? I've got a GTX 1660, which I'm not planning to upgrade anytime soon. So I don't think I need PCIe 4.0 support. Other than that, any considerable feature differences?
 

Darkbreeze

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Since no boards have been reviewed and AMD hasn't released the expected features list, hard to say, but I think you can expect to see native USB 3.1 Gen 2 support, probably an increased number of USB 3.1 ports and possibly a departure from USB 2.0 entirely, plus assuredly a much improved power delivery with additional and higher quality power phase VRM components to accomodate the higher thermal design power and core counts.

If you buy a higher end X470 or B450 (Preferably X470 as they tend to already have better power phase than most B450 boards) then you'd probably be alright and while PCI 4.0 might not be a "necessity" it would certainly be a nice to have since existing cards could still take advantage of the improvement in bandwidth and power delivery.
 
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dsdani352

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Since no boards have been reviewed and AMD hasn't released the expected features list, hard to say, but I think you can expect to see native USB 3.1 Gen 2 support, probably an increased number of USB 3.1 ports and possibly a departure from USB 2.0 entirely, plus assuredly a much improved power delivery with additional and higher quality power phase VRM components to accomodate the higher thermal design power and core counts.

If you buy a higher end X470 or B450 (Preferably X470 as they tend to already have better power phase than most B450 boards) then you'd probably be alright and while PCI 4.0 might not be a "necessity" it would certainly be a nice to have since existing cards could still take advantage of the improvement in bandwidth and power delivery.
Thanks for clearing those things for me. From what you say I understand it's mainly focused on better power delivery. It should be a concern for me only if I plan to overclock, right? As for me I'm not much into overclocking, but may try some mild overclocking in the future. So will I be okay with an MSI B450M Mortar? I'm planning to get a CPU which is 8 cores at max.
 

Darkbreeze

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Actually, it's NOT only a concern for overclocking, because there are some existing B350, B450, X370 and X470 boards that the manufacturers have said they will NOT support the 3000 series processors on, whether they actually do end up doing so or not is irrelevant, because the fact is they are talking about support for stock behavior. And the reason they are saying that is because they feel/know/believe that the addition of 50-100% more cores/threads is going to push the stock/factory all core boost power delivery requirements beyond what some of these existing boards can handle without having issues.

it is much like the fiasco with the majority of AM3+ motherboards when the FX 8 core Piledriver processors were released and ESPECIALLY so when the FX 9 series (FX-9370/9590) were released. Even the highest end boards couldn't, and still can't, handle the thermal design power and power delivery needs for those processors, despite MOST of those boards showing those models on the CPU support list. It made them look bad, and it pissed a lot of people off including AMD.

I think they are trying to be wiser than that this time and so they are playing it a little safer. To be honest, I'd only use the best of the existing boards with any of the upcoming Ryzen 3000 processors if the processor model in question has more cores than any of the existing 2000 series models. For models that have the same or fewer core counts, then any existing board should have adequate power delivery to handle it.
 
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rigg42

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-ZwVuH_tinzgpsOdfMvYeCLI5ZbIpnq5fyiWD4NCkkU/edit#gid=229691480

This is a pretty good breakdown of 400 series VRM's. If a mini-itx board isn't a limitation for you the MSI
B450I Gaming Plus (AC) is a standout in the price to power delivery department. Anything in the mid-range or higher on this spreadsheet should handle max overclocked 8 cores just fine. MSI and Asus have already announced 3000 support for some of their motherboards:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/asus/amd-ryzen-3000-motherboard-compatibility-msi

I suspect that even though many 300 and 400 series will get ryzen 3000 support they may require the 500 series boards for the 16 core and possibly 12 core parts. If they are compatible with the older boards some of those boards will likely have current limitations on them that cause the 12 and 16 core CPU's to down clock under load. Even if they didn't the VRMs would likely throttle from heat and give you the same result. There are probably less than 10 AM4 boards in existence that could even hope to support these 12 and 16 core parts to their full capability. This just my personal speculation though.

We're so close to the AMD keynote at Computex you may as well just wait for more concrete information. At the very least we should have more fact and less rumor at that point.
 

Darkbreeze

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Another possible (Likely?) change on the newer motherboards may be an increase in PCI lanes or at least the inclusion of more PCI 3.0 lanes (Instead of 2.0) for the 8 general use (Who knows, maybe we'll see an increase there too to bolster the additional M.2 device usage we're seeing). I agree, it's all speculation until AMD lays out the architecture and allows board makers to show us what they got.
 
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ocer9999

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Thanks for clearing those things for me. From what you say I understand it's mainly focused on better power delivery. It should be a concern for me only if I plan to overclock, right? As for me I'm not much into overclocking, but may try some mild overclocking in the future. So will I be okay with an MSI B450M Mortar? I'm planning to get a CPU which is 8 cores at max.
I would play it safe, go for a good B450, either the Tomahwak or the Steel Legend, they both offer good VRMs that are more than enough for the next gen.
 

dsdani352

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Actually, it's NOT only a concern for overclocking, because there are some existing B350, B450, X370 and X470 boards that the manufacturers have said they will NOT support the 3000 series processors on, whether they actually do end up doing so or not is irrelevant, because the fact is they are talking about support for stock behavior. And the reason they are saying that is because they feel/know/believe that the addition of 50-100% more cores/threads is going to push the stock/factory all core boost power delivery requirements beyond what some of these existing boards can handle without having issues.
Ah,I get it. The core count matters too. But then I think the Mortar should be fine as long as I stick with an 8 core Zen 2 CPU?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-ZwVuH_tinzgpsOdfMvYeCLI5ZbIpnq5fyiWD4NCkkU/edit#gid=229691480

This is a pretty good breakdown of 400 series VRM's. If a mini-itx board isn't a limitation for you the MSI
B450I Gaming Plus (AC) is a standout in the price to power delivery department. Anything in the mid-range or higher on this spreadsheet should handle max overclocked 8 cores just fine.
That gives me much more confidence. Thanks. Well from that chart and what you said, I think I should be fine with an 8 core Zen 2 CPU and the B450 Mortar.

By the way, I was also thinking about something else. Since the Zen 2 is 7nm there could be some advantage with power efficiency right? Do you think I'll miss out on such features, if any exists, if I go for the B450 motherboard? Does a VRM have any role in such things?
 

Darkbreeze

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Mortar is low end garbage. Tomahawk is better, but not by that much. Plus, I've seen a LOT of users come here with problems related to the onboard sound on the B450 Tomahawk and a higher than what I feel is normal rate of other issues as well. Honestly, I'd avoid all of those lower end boards, and those ARE lower end boards when we are talking about getting a good board that will be capable enough for the higher clocks and cores of the Ryzen 3000 series. An 8 core is pretty much the same as a current Ryzen 7, so a good mid tiered board should do fine.

The Tomahawk is certainly an option but I think for ME I'd recommend looking at the Gigabyte B450 AORUS PRO WIFI (rev. 1.0) , Asus ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING or perhaps the Steel legend mentioned above if you need to save a few bucks. There are much better boards in the 150 dollar range than these though and the improved power phase and features they bring as well as generally higher quality in general, are usually worth the extra investment. That's a question every user has to answer for themselves though.
 
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DMAN999

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I 2nd Db's recommendation of the Asus ROG Strix B450-F Gaming.
I have one paired with an Ryzen 5 2600 OC'd to 3.95 Ghz and even though the VRM doesn't rate well on that list posted above, I can say that the VRM on mine performs very well for me.
I have a thermal sensor placed on the VRM heatsink and it idles at 28-29c and I have never seen it get above 35c. I personally plan on upgrading to either a 2700x or a Ryzen 3000 series CPU next year and I am confident in this MB's ability to handle the upgrade.
 

rigg42

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I 2nd Db's recommendation of the Asus ROG Strix B450-F Gaming.
I have one paired with an Ryzen 5 2600 OC'd to 3.95 Ghz and even though the VRM doesn't rate well on that list posted above, I can say that the VRM on mine performs very well for me.
I have a thermal sensor placed on the VRM heatsink and it idles at 28-29c and I have never seen it get above 35c. I personally plan on upgrading to either a 2700x or a Ryzen 3000 series CPU next year and I am confident in this MB's ability to handle the upgrade.
Thats a nice board for a 6 core. That VRM is stressed considerably less by a 6 core than an 8 core though. You probably aren't needing that much voltage to hit that OC either. A 2700x with a good cooler and PBO turned on would probably cause that VRM to thermal throttle without airflow over the heatsink. It would be borderline at the very least.

Mortar is low end garbage. Tomahawk is better, but not by that much. Plus, I've seen a LOT of users come here with problems related to the onboard sound on the B450 Tomahawk and a higher than what I feel is normal rate of other issues as well. Honestly, I'd avoid all of those lower end boards, and those ARE lower end boards when we are talking about getting a good board that will be capable enough for the higher clocks and cores of the Ryzen 3000 series. An 8 core is pretty much the same as a current Ryzen 7, so a good mid tiered board should do fine.

The Tomahawk is certainly an option but I think for ME I'd recommend looking at the Gigabyte B450 AORUS PRO WIFI (rev. 1.0) , Asus ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING or perhaps the Steel legend mentioned above if you need to save a few bucks. There are much better boards in the 150 dollar range than these though and the improved power phase and features they bring as well as generally higher quality in general, are usually worth the extra investment. That's a question every user has to answer for themselves though.
The MSI b450 boards do tend to have the best power delivery for the mid-range price bracket but I would agree that they leave a bit to be desired otherwise. The Gigabyte B450 AORUS PRO WIFI (rev. 1.0) / Asus ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING are nicely featured boards but I'd have a hard time recommending them for use with a 8 core unless running bone stock settings. I personally think the strix x470-f / x470 Taichi / x470 Gaming Pro Carbon are worth the extra money. I'm probably a bit biased towards more expensive motherboards though since I have a micro center near me and get great deals on open box mobos all the time.
 

Darkbreeze

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I can't argue, I don't normally recommend B450 unless somebody has to go that route in order to make the budget. However it seems as though dsdani was in fact trying to keep the board cost down. Personally, I did specifically say

If you buy a higher end X470 or B450 (Preferably X470 as they tend to already have better power phase than most B450 boards)
And if they plan to go for an 8 core or higher board then X470 or X570 would be the way to go if it were up to me, but it's not, and since there's been no talk of overclocking, then I think a good B450 will suffice, even though it would not be my first choice.
 
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dsdani352

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Reading all the above replies, I get this feeling that you're telling me not to go for the Mortar, but a ROG or AORUS instead. I'll have to see whether that fits into my budget. If not, do you think I'll be OKAY with the Mortar running a Ryzen 3000 (Nothing above 8 cores) stock? With zero overclocking?

By the way, I'm planning to get a Ryzen 3 1200 for temporary use until the Zen2 CPUs are released. So I don't want to spend much on a cpu that won't be used after 2 or 3 months. I currently have a GTX 1660. My question is, will I have noticeable performance drop using it with that CPU?
 

rigg42

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Reading all the above replies, I get this feeling that you're telling me not to go for the Mortar, but a ROG or AORUS instead. I'll have to see whether that fits into my budget. If not, do you think I'll be OKAY with the Mortar running a Ryzen 3000 (Nothing above 8 cores) stock? With zero overclocking?

By the way, I'm planning to get a Ryzen 3 1200 for temporary use until the Zen2 CPUs are released. So I don't want to spend much on a cpu that won't be used after 2 or 3 months. I currently have a GTX 1660. My question is, will I have noticeable performance drop using it with that CPU?
I'd reckon the mortar will be fine for any 8 core AM4 chip at stock settings. That being said i'd probably spring for a better mobo since we don't really know what the zen 2 chips will dictate in terms of power delivery. I'd wait a week to see what AMD announces at computex regardless. As far as performance with the 1200 it will depend on resolution and settings. A 1200 should be overclocked in any setup IMO. Its capable of 3.8-4 ghz at stock voltage. Stock settings are dumb in comparison.
 
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Darkbreeze

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By the way, I'm planning to get a Ryzen 3 1200 for temporary use until the Zen2 CPUs are released. So I don't want to spend much on a cpu that won't be used after 2 or 3 months. I currently have a GTX 1660. My question is, will I have noticeable performance drop using it with that CPU?
From a Haswell i5? Yes. You are going to lose performance. The 4th Gen Haswell i5 whips it pretty handily.

Not quite Hulk smash, more like Hulk finger flick through the drywall.
 

dsdani352

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I'd reckon the mortar will be fine for any 8 core AM4 chip at stock settings. That being said i'd probably spring for a better mobo since we don't really know what the zen 2 chips will dictate in terms of power delivery. I'd wait a week to see what AMD announces at computex regardless. As far as performance with the 1200 it will depend on resolution and settings. A 1200 should be overclocked in any setup IMO. Its capable of 3.8-4 ghz at stock voltage. Stock settings are dumb in comparison. It'll hit 3.7-4.0 all day at stock v-core.
From what everyone said in this thread I think it's better to get an Asus ROG B450-F. So I'll go for it. It should be able to handle the Zen 2 chips right? Atleast in stock?

And about the 1200, I'm asking about a 1080p gaming setup, temporary of course, until the ryzen 3000 series are released.

From a Haswell i5? Yes. You are going to lose performance. The 4th Gen Haswell i5 whips it pretty handily.
Yeah, i5 4th gen. But will the performance be much noticable in gaming 1080p? Also, like I said it's gonna be a temporary setup.

And one more thing, about the RAM I'm planning to get, would a Corsair Vengeance 2400 MHz suffice for the setup I'm planning?
 

Darkbreeze

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Definitely not. You want 16GB of DDR4 3000 or 3200mhz. Early indications are that the Ryzen 3000 series are able to handle much higher speed memory than current Ryzen platforms, and currently platforms show significant, measurable AND noticeable performance increase when using 2933mhz or higher memory kits. Because of the way the infinity fabric is designed, CPU performance is directly affected by memory speed, even exclusive of any graphics considerations, so using slower memory kits is definitely not recommended if it can be avoided.

All of that is assuming current platform recommendations. The upcoming processors might benefit even more from fast memory, although I think any differences there might be largely tied to the newer chipsets as well as the CPUs, but regardless if you want my advice I wouldn't target anything less than a 16GB DDR4 3000mhz kit. And if you can get one with a CL14 primary latency (CAS 14), so much the better, because Ryzen really likes the B-die memory chips. But any decent quality 3000mhz or higher kit should do fine.

Obviously, 2400mhz kits will work too, but you are leaving performance on the table for the price difference which is likely not that significant considering the overall investment to be made. You might be looking at a twenty dollar difference between a 2400mhz kit and a 3000mhz kit, and in some cases, maybe not even that much.
 
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dsdani352

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How about a Corsair LPX 2* 8GB 3000MHz? Or should I go for a single 16 GB stick? I'm still confused about the performance differences between a single stick and a dual stick setup.
 

dsdani352

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Depends on how SW is written but results are always positive. Generally, SW that depends on memory fares better with dual channel. Just some examples: https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/does-dual-channel-memory-make-difference-in-gaming-performance/4/
Ah, yes. There is advantage. Guess I'll go for a dual channel setup then. Is the Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000 MHz (C16) good enough?

Edit: I checked the latencies of Corsair and Gskill RAMs and this is what I saw.
Corsair: 16-20-20-38
Gskill: 16-18-18-38
I guess Gskill has better numbers. Am I right? I'm not much aware of latencies. Could someone tell me what those numbers exactly mean?
 
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