Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (
More info?)
"Michael Stanwick" <mstanwick@aol.com> wrote in message
news:52f8c9c6.0406261428.79c4ce3e@posting.google.com...
> "Cofa Tsui" <cofatsui@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<AlXCc.888956$oR5.823672@pd7tw3no>...
> > > > It is interesting to know that the images used today, i.e., Zhong
> > (centre or
> > > > middle, in red), Fa (fortune, in green), Bai (white, in white) were
not
> > > > presented. Perhaps these were not yet developed at that time?
> > >
> > > Hello Cofa.
> > > From the documented/dated tile set from the British Museum(the
> > > Wilkinson set) we can see that Zhong, Fa and Bai were present back in
> > > 1889. Indeed, they are also present in the Culin set of 1909.
> >
> > Thanks Michael for the info. This makes better sense why group of these
> > three pieces is called San Yuan (Three Scholars).
>
> Hello Cofa. Can you tell me why you think the group Zhong, Fa and Bai
> is called San Yuan (Three Scholars)?
It is not that I think they should, I read from books about mahjong that say
so. Most books (in Chinese) I read call these pieces San Yuan (Three
Scholars). (See also "History of Mahjong" at
http://www.mjclub.com/Resource/History/ - a site in simplified Chinese.) The
CMCR (published in 1998) calls them "Jian Pai" (Arrow Pais), which is the
only difference I know of.
The term "Yuan" in historical China means those who have passed the
emporer's exam and being assigned the Chief Official in a regional
jurisdiction. It is a very high honour that means much more than just a
scholar. On the other hand, I do think calling these pieces San Yuan makes
better sense because the meanings of Zhong, Fa and Bai are relevant to the
meaning of Yuan.
>
> > > > I also found it interesting to see the difference between the
Flowers in
> > > > modern mahjong and those "Seasons" in Babcock's presentation.
> > >
> > > I don't know when your 'modern MJ' starts from. If I assume it was
> > > circa 1920, then you can see an actual 'Original MJ Sales Company of
> > > America' set, with just those "Seasons", at Jim May's site. Jim has
> > > labelled it as "circa 1923". It is under 'Unique Sets' and is # 228.
> >
> > My "modern" is not as precisely defined as yours ^_^ My modern MJ means
> > those you can find on the open market today. But this brings up some
other
> > questions: Should we call those pieces "Seasons" rather than "Flowers"?
In
> > Chinese terminology, as far as I am aware of, we use the term Flowers
only
> > (Blue or Red Flowers), no Seasons - Why is this obvious difference? If
> > "Seasons" only were present in those earliest documented sets, then why
the
> > term "Flowers" is also used (both in Babcock's application and in
today's
> > use)?
>
> These are interesting questions. If you read Babcock's patent
> application you will see that he calls *both* quartets by one name,
> either 'Seasons' OR 'Flowers' OR 'Flower Gardens' OR 'Goofs'. His
> 'Babcock's Rules for MAH-JONGG' also calls BOTH quartets 'Seasons'.
>
> In later editions it became 'Seasons' AND 'Flowers'. So 'or' was
> replaced by the word 'and' it seems.
>
> The very earliest sets we have any documentation for - the 2 Glover
> sets and the Himly set(all dating from approx. 1875) - have 4 tiles
> that each have one large sinogram representing one of the 4 Seasons(I
> am assuming the Himly set had the same as the Glover sets as we only
> have Himly's description of the name of the tiles).
>
> Indeed, I own a set that dates from sometime in the period 1890 - 1909
> that has these 4 tiles with the large sinograms. Culin's set of 1909
> has the Plum Blossom, Orchid, Bamboo and Chrysanthemum tiles which,
> according to Eberhard(1986) symbolise 'The Four Noble Plants'. Culin's
> set also has the group Chessboard, Lute, Book and Painting which
> symbolise 'The Four Arts of the Scholar'(who is one of 'The Four
> Callings'), according to Eberhard(1986).
>
> But this does not explain where the term 'Flowers' or 'Flower Gardens'
> came from. However, Culin did mention a game called, in Cantonese, wak
> fa(waak6 faa1)- 'To Draw Flowers' - and in Mandarin hua4 hua1. Thierry
> mentioned to me that the meaning is to 'design', that is, to 'combine
> flowers' and this may have represented a 'non-gambling' form of the
> 'sparrow' game. But I mention all of this in my 2 part article in The
> Playing-card. Have you read it?
>
> However, I also have another early set that I calculate dates from
> between 1901 and 1909. This has 'The Four Noble Plants' plus four
> other tiles which have various designs on them which are not relevant
> here. It is possible that if these four plant tiles were present in
> tile sets at the beginning of the 20th century, then they *may have*
> become known by Westerners in China as 'Flowers' since they
> superficially bare a resemblance to Flowers. This is another tentative
> explanation.
>
> Maybe someone else has another explanation?
Thanks for sharing the results of your research, Michael.
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
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