Beginning of Upkeep

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Greetings and Salutations!

Okay... is the following legal, and if not, where does it go wrong?

A player has Masticore in play. The top card of the player's
graveyard is a Death Spark. Somewhere in the very same graveyard is
Squee, Goblin Nabob.

During the beginning of upkeep, Squee is returned to the player's
hand, then Squee is discarded to pay for the Masticore, and finally
the player pays one mana to return Death Spark from the graveyard
since Squee is now directly above Death Spark in the graveyard.

As always, thanks for your help and understanding!

Cheers, Harry


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[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Harry Benkiel <harry.dontspamonme.benkiel@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Greetings and Salutations!
>
> Okay... is the following legal, and if not, where does it go wrong?
>
> A player has Masticore in play. The top card of the player's
> graveyard is a Death Spark. Somewhere in the very same graveyard is
> Squee, Goblin Nabob.

Masticore
{4}
Artifact Creature
4/4
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may discard a card from your hand.
If you don't, sacrifice Masticore.
{2}: Masticore deals 1 damage to target creature.
{2}: Regenerate Masticore.

Death Spark
{R}
Instant
Death Spark deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Death Spark is in your graveyard
with a creature card directly above it, you may pay {1}. If you do,
return Death Spark to your hand.

Squee, Goblin Nabob
{2}{R}
Creature -- Goblin Legend
1/1
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Squee, Goblin Nabob is in your
graveyard, you may return Squee to your hand.

> During the beginning of upkeep, Squee is returned to the player's
> hand, then Squee is discarded to pay for the Masticore, and finally
> the player pays one mana to return Death Spark from the graveyard
> since Squee is now directly above Death Spark in the graveyard.

"During" the beginning of upkeep????

303. Upkeep Step

303.1. As the upkeep step begins, any abilities that trigger at the
beginning of that upkeep step and any abilities that triggered during
the turn's untap step go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling
Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and players
may play spells and abilities.

404.3. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At . . . , if
[condition], [effect]." The ability checks for the stated condition to
be true when the trigger event occurs. If it is, the ability triggers.
On resolution, the ability rechecks the condition. If the condition
isn't true at either of those times, the ability does nothing. This rule
is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. Note that the word
"if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a
card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a
trigger condition.

AT the beginning of your upkeep, the abilities of Masticore and Squee,
Goblin Nabob trigger. The ability of Death Spark does not trigger,
because the condition is not true. The active player then puts those
two (2) triggered abilities on the stack in the order they choose. They
will eventually resolve.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Harry Benkiel <harry.dontspamonme.benkiel@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Greetings and Salutations!
>
>Okay... is the following legal, and if not, where does it go wrong?
>
>A player has Masticore in play. The top card of the player's
>graveyard is a Death Spark. Somewhere in the very same graveyard is
>Squee, Goblin Nabob.
>
>During the beginning of upkeep,

Stop there. Nothing happens "during the beginning of upkeep"; that's not a time
+period+. That's a +point+ in time, at which things trigger. Masticore and
Squee and Death Spark all trigger then, Death Spark and Squee conditionally.
After upkeep has begun, but before anyone gets priority, all three (or two
or one) go onto the stack.

>Squee is returned to the player's hand,

Not until Squee's triggered ability RESOLVES, some time during upkeep.

>then Squee is discarded to pay for the Masticore,

If you stacked them so Squee's ability was on top of Masticore's, sure, this
is fine; the lower ones will resolve later, because they have to wait for
what's on top of them to resolve.

>and finally
>the player pays one mana to return Death Spark from the graveyard
>since Squee is now directly above Death Spark in the graveyard.

Was Squee directly above to -start with-? If not, then Death Spark never
triggered in the first place, since from this you have Death Spark being
the top card after Squee leaves the graveyard:

Death Spark R Instant
~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player. / At the beginning of your
upkeep, if ~ is in your graveyard with a creature card directly above it, you
may pay 1. If you do, return ~ to your hand.

That "if" clause is in the right place to be an intervening if clause: directly
after the trigger event. Thus, it's checked on announcement, and again on
resolution, per the rules for that special kind of "if" clause in a triggered
ability. So if Squee was the top card, and Death Spark the second, in your
graveyard _before_ your upkeep started? This works fine. If Death Spark was on
top and Squee was somewhere in the middle? This is not fine, and Death Spark
never triggered in the first place.

(And if Death Spark is somewhere in your graveyard with some _other_ creature
card already directly on top of it, that wasn't Squee ... _or_ if Death Spark
wasn't on top but had Squee on top of it _and_ there's _another_ creature
card on top of Squee... then it works fine.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 31 May 2004 23:34:25 -0400, Harry Benkiel wrote:

>A player has Masticore in play. The top card of the player's
>graveyard is a Death Spark. Somewhere in the very same graveyard is
>Squee, Goblin Nabob.
>
>During the beginning of upkeep, Squee is returned to the player's
>hand, then Squee is discarded to pay for the Masticore, and finally
>the player pays one mana to return Death Spark from the graveyard
>since Squee is now directly above Death Spark in the graveyard.

When Death Spark checks its "intervening 'if' clause" (404.3) at the
beginning of that player's upkeep, it finds no creature card directly
above Death Spark, so unfortunately Death Spark doesn't trigger at all.
This turn the player will not be able to return Death Spark to his or
her hand via this method.

The rest works; the player controlling the triggered abilities may order
them any way he/she likes. By putting Masticore's ability onto the stack
first, Squee will be in that player's hand when he/she has to discard a
card for Masticore.

Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___SkyGlider@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

During the beginning of upkeep, Squee is returned to the player's
hand, then Squee is discarded to pay for the Masticore, and finally
the player pays one mana to return Death Spark from the graveyard
since Squee is now directly above Death Spark in the graveyard.

>>

Unfortunately, no. You can do all the other stuff, but because Death Spark
wasn't in the graveyard with a creature card directly above it when the upkeep
step began (which is when all BOU abilities trigger), thus its ability won't
even stack. However, you have it set for NEXT turn...but remember to let the
Death Spark's ability resolve first, since it won't resolve if Squee isn't
directly above it when it does resolve (unless there's another creature card
above Squee...


----
"If President Bush is going to take credit for 'the invisble hand' [of
economics], then he's going to take the blame when 'the hand' gives him the
finger."
--From Fark.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Harry Benkiel wrote:

> Greetings and Salutations!
>
> Okay... is the following legal, and if not, where does it go wrong?
>
> A player has Masticore in play. The top card of the player's
> graveyard is a Death Spark. Somewhere in the very same graveyard is
> Squee, Goblin Nabob.
>
> During the beginning of upkeep, Squee is returned to the player's
> hand, then Squee is discarded to pay for the Masticore, and finally
> the player pays one mana to return Death Spark from the graveyard
> since Squee is now directly above Death Spark in the graveyard.

No, that doesn't work. Things that trigger on the beginning of your
upkeep check to see if they trigger *before you do anything*. If they
don't trigger then, they don't trigger, period. Death Spark was not
eligible to trigger at the beginning of your upkeep. The fact that
you met the conditions for triggering it later does not help, because
it is no longer the beginning of your upkeep, but during your upkeep.
>
> As always, thanks for your help and understanding!
>
> Cheers, Harry
>
>
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>
>
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--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"