Question Best AMD upgrade choice from 5700 XT

Feb 19, 2024
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I'm wondering what would be the best possible AMD upgrade from my 5700 XT without having to change any other component in my PC (case, CPU, PSU...)?
I use my PC only for playing DCS World at 1440P. Thank you.

CPU Intel i5-9600KF
CPU cooler Arctic Cooling Freezer 34 eSports DUO GREY
MBO ASRock Z390M Pro4
GPU Sapphire Pulse RX 5700 XT 8GB
RAM Patriot Viper Steel, 3200M 32GB (4x8GB)
SSD1 GIGABYTE SSD 1TB, M.2 2280
SSD2 WD 2TB SSD BLUE SN570 3D M.2 2280 NVMe
HDD WD Blue 1TB 7.200rpm WD10EZEX
Case Fractal Define C Mini, black
Case coolers Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-12 PWM, 2000 RPM (x2)
PSU Riotoro ENIGMA G2, 650W Gold
 

Aeacus

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I'm wondering what would be the best possible AMD upgrade from my 5700 XT without having to change any other component in my PC (case, CPU, PSU...)?
Beefiest AMD GPU i'd be comfortable hooking to a 650W unit would be: RX 6800, which is 250W GPU.
One step up from that is RX 6800 XT at 300W TDP. For that GPU, i'd use 750W PSU to be safe.

Note: RX 5700 XT is 225W GPU.

RX 5700 XT vs RX 6800,
comparison: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-RX-5700-XT-vs-AMD-RX-6800/4045vs4088
pcpp:
https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=495&sort=price&page=1

Edit:
Found better GPU, namely RX 7700 XT, which is 245W GPU and has better performance than RX 6800;
comparison: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-RX-6800-vs-AMD-RX-7700-XT/4088vsm2184147
RX 5700 XT vs RX 7700 XT,
comparison: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-RX-5700-XT-vs-AMD-RX-7700-XT/4045vsm2184147
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=558&sort=price&page=1
 
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Feb 19, 2024
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Thank you for your reply. 7700 XT is my choice also, but that 7600 XT got me thinking because of 16 GB of RAM (although everything else about that card seems wrong).
 

Aeacus

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because of 16 GB of RAM
If you need 16GB of VRAM, then RX 7800 XT at 263W should work with 650W unit as well, but it will be tops.

GPU transient power spikes reach up to ~320W,
source: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-7800-xt/38.html

Whereby when you add the rest of the system to it at ~200W, total max load on PSU would be ~520W, making 650W almost enough. Now, i'd be comfortable using 750W unit at this power draw, but 650W unit can also work, especially when you don't OC your CPU and GPU. But if you OC them, you could blow the PSU (or trip the PSU protection, which kills the power to the PC and can lead to data corruption).

But on other aspects, RX 7800 XT is good GPU;
RX 7700 XT vs RX 7800 XT comparison: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-RX-7700-XT-vs-AMD-RX-7800-XT/m2184147vsm2184033
RX 5700 XT vs RX 7800 XT comparison: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-RX-5700-XT-vs-AMD-RX-7800-XT/4045vsm2184033
review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-7800-xt-review/3
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=559&sort=price&page=1

So, RX 7700 XT is a safe bet, but RX 7800 XT needs some finesse in using it with 650W unit.
 
Feb 19, 2024
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One thing that has me worried is AMD's official minimum PSU recommendation of 700 W for both the 7700 XT and 7800 XT.
However, when I simulated power consumption for my current or potential setup, I found:
This makes me comfortable even considering the 7800 XT because there's only a 25W difference between the 5700 XT and the 7800 XT. Additionally, I have no intention of overclocking my CPU or GPU and don't have any major power-hungry peripherals or accessories that aren't already listed in the simulations.

This leads me to my last concern: CPU bottleneck. Is 7800 XT simply too much?
Either those online calculators are wrong or I don't know how to use them. :cool:
ERUMov.jpg
 

Aeacus

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One thing that has me worried is AMD's official minimum PSU recommendation of 700 W for both the 7700 XT and 7800 XT.
You did read the fine print on AMD's website, right? If not, then:
Recommended power supply for AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT graphics card is minimum 700W or greater with 12V output > 54A. Minimum recommended system power supply wattage is based on a PC configured with an AMD Ryzen 9 7950X processor plus typical power requirements of other system components. Your system requirements may differ. GD-223.
R9 7950X is 170W TDP CPU, while your i5-9600KF is 95W CPU. That's a diff of 75W.

So, 700W - 75W = 625W, which can be rounded up to 650W.

However, when I simulated power consumption for my current or potential setup, I found:
I calculated ~520W when using 7800 XT. So, quite accurate. :) (More like luck, since if you'd have more hardware in the PC, total would be higher.)

CPU bottleneck. Is 7800 XT simply too much?
Either those online calculators are wrong or I don't know how to use them. :cool:
DCS World is CPU bound game. Meaning that when you upgrade the GPU, you may not gain any meaningful amount of FPS. Now, if you were to upgrade the CPU, you'd get more FPS if you're not GPU bound, that is.

But it's easy to test if game is currently held back by CPU or GPU.
1. When playing on 1440p, record (note down) the average FPS you're getting.
2. Switch to 1080p reso and look if your average FPS did increase or not. (Reducing resolution reduces load on GPU.)

If your average FPS did increase, then it means game is held back by GPU and better/beefier GPU increases your average FPS (how much - that i can't tell).
But if your average FPS didn't increase at all, then this means game is held back by CPU, whereby better GPU does 0 in terms of more FPS.
 
Feb 19, 2024
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I did not read the fine print... :rolleyes:
Thank you for pointing this out; now I understand the difference.

I conducted some testing as you suggested, both in the single-threaded and multi-threaded versions of DCS. I did all the tests twice using the same track file so that I could obtain comparable results:

1st run
ST 1440P avg FPS in 60 sec: 35
ST 1080P avg FPS in 60 sec: 45
MT 1440P avg FPS in 60 sec: 40
MT 1080P avg FPS in 60 sec: 47

2nd run
ST 1440P avg FPS in 60 sec: 37
ST 1080P avg FPS in 60 sec: 43
MT 1440P avg FPS in 60 sec: 40
MT 1080P avg FPS in 60 sec: 47

So the difference between 1080P and 1440P is 6–10 FPS depending on the test and DCS version. In every test, CPU utilization was (10-20% according to Game bar / 80-90% according to AMD metrics).

I knew that DCS is CPU-bound (and that single-core CPU speed matters), but I also know that DCS is hungry for VRAM because it's so unoptimized. I was hoping that a new GPU with 12GB or maybe even 16GB VRAM would bring some noticeable improvement.

It somehow seems to me that the upgrade I had in mind is not worth it.
 

Aeacus

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I was hoping that a new GPU with 12GB or maybe even 16GB VRAM would bring some noticeable improvement.

It somehow seems to me that the upgrade I had in mind is not worth it.
Test results show that reducing load on GPU, does improve the FPS a bit. This means that game currently is held back by GPU.

Now, beefier GPU would increase the FPS, but it's impossible to tell how much. Also, you're not far off of utilizing CPU at it's fullest.
So, if you expected to gain ~40 FPS with new GPU, i don't think it would happen. Even increase of ~20 FPS is questionable since you're close to max CPU utilization. But ~10 FPS increase is given, since at least that much you did gain when you reduced the load on GPU.

Up to you to decide if 10 (or even 20) FPS increase is worth the cost of RX 7800 XT.

Personally, i'd get new MoBo and CPU, alongside new GPU. If you were to go with Intel 13th or 14th gen CPU, pick the MoBo that supports DDR4 RAM. This way, you can reuse your RAM and doesn't have to buy new DDR5 RAM, making upgrade cheaper.
E.g like so:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-14500 2.6 GHz 14-Core Processor ($239.99 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: ARCTIC Freezer 34 eSports DUO CPU Cooler (Purchased For $0.00)
Motherboard: ASRock B760M Pro RS/D4 WiFi Micro ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($148.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Patriot Viper Steel 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory (Purchased For $0.00)
Memory: Patriot Viper Steel 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory (Purchased For $0.00)
Storage: Gigabyte Gen3 2500E 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive (Purchased For $0.00)
Storage: Western Digital Blue SN570 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive (Purchased For $0.00)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1 TB 3.5" 7200 RPM Internal Hard Drive (Purchased For $0.00)
Video Card: Gigabyte GAMING OC Radeon RX 7800 XT 16 GB Video Card ($499.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Fractal Design Define Mini C MicroATX Mid Tower Case (Purchased For $0.00)
Power Supply: RIOTORO ENIGMA G2 650 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (Purchased For $0.00)
Case Fan: Fractal Design Dynamic X2 GP-12 52.3 CFM 120 mm Fan (Purchased For $0.00)
Case Fan: Fractal Design Dynamic X2 GP-12 52.3 CFM 120 mm Fan (Purchased For $0.00)
Total: $888.97

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-02-25 13:02 EST-0500


Already included the parts you have and marked them as "Purchased".

i5-14500 is 14 core, 20 thread CPU at 65W, which is solid upgrade to your current chip,
comparison: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-9600KF-vs-Intel-Core-i5-14500/m772658vsm2255984
Sure, it isn't K-series and you can't OC it, but at current date, CPU OC isn't worth the effort due to how efficient CPUs are. CPU also comes with Intel CPU cooler, but you can use your Arctic cooler for better temps. Also, CPU has iGPU in it, whereby when your dedicated GPU should die, you can just hook monitor to MoBo and continue using your PC (except gaming).

MoBo is good mid-tier one. Not barebones and not costing fortune either. Feel free to replace it if you like.
And put in RX 7800 XT.

This configuration leaves you some headroom in CPU upgrade if you desire at future date. Any Intel 12th gen, 13th gen or 14th gen CPU will work.
 

Nyara

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Do not get the RX 7600 XT; only 20% uplift from the RX 5700 XT.

Do not get the RX 7700 XT; the price is almost the same as the RX 7800 XT and the gap between the two is huge.

Get the RX 6700 XT or RX 6750 XT if you are budget conscious, you will get a 50% FPS uplift on DSC World with your current setup.

Get the RX 6800 if you were to find one for $400 or below, it is a 80% uplift which also comes with 16GB VRAM, which is useful for the long run as this game keeps increasing the recommended specs every some years.

Get the RX 7800 XT if you want the best your setup can have, it is about a 90% FPS uplift.

Your CPU is not significantly bottlenecking any of the GPUs for this game. Game is capped to use 6 cores, which is what your CPU has. The single-thread performance of Intel 9th gen is not much behind from Intel 14th gen or AMD 7000 series, so at most you are losing 25% FPS, or basically your max moving from 120FPS to 90FPS.

If you are getting less than 90FPS now is due to GPU bottleneck+memory bottleneck+maybe your Windows is bloated or you are keeping active some options which kills the performance in any CPU for the game.

I do not recommend updating the CPU and MOBO since yours is enough, and the available options with your DDR4 RAM (AMD 5000 series or Intel 12th to 14th gen) will not uplift you a lot, most the recent performance gain is multi-thread, not single-thread. I think it is more prudent to wait until Intel Ultra 200 series and AMD 8000 series in the next year, or anything future when you feel like.
 
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Aeacus

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Get the RX 7800 XT if you want the best your setup can have, it is about a 90% FPS uplift.

Your CPU is not significantly bottlenecking any of the GPUs for this game. Game is capped to use 6 cores, which is what your CPU has. The single-thread performance of Intel 9th gen is not much behind from Intel 14th gen or AMD 7000 series, so at most you are losing 25% FPS, or basically your max moving from 120FPS to 90FPS.
Any data to back up your claims? :unsure: Since what you're saying is too good to be true.

For example, this DCS World test with RX 7700 XT at 1080p reso. Couldn't find out what CPU they have but not all graphical settings were High/Max, some were Low/Off (to improve performance/FPS);

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=W0i_dapL03Y


In there, there are 4 runs;
1. Average ~60 FPS
2. Average ~40 FPS (around 16:00 mark in video)
3. Average ~50 FPS (around 32:00 mark in video)
4. Average ~40 FPS (around 37:00 mark in video)

Get the RX 7800 XT if you want the best your setup can have, it is about a 90% FPS uplift.

One simply can not get 90% FPS increase in CPU bound game just by upgrading GPU. :non:

RX 7800 XT, when paired with i9-13900K, at 1080p reso, in high/ultra settings, can push ~87FPS in similar, comparable game (Flight Simulator);

EL5boabtdZQPFRVY4Y4Etj-970-80.png.webp

Source: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-7800-xt-review/4

And you are saying that OP can achieve the same?
Whereby OP now is getting ~45 FPS on 1080p but with RX 7800 XT OP gets ~85 FPS on 1080p? :rolleyes: (90% FPS uplift.)

If OP would have i9-13900K to pair with the RX 7800 XT - then: Yes.
But OP does not have i9-13900K, but instead i5-9600KF, and last i checked, these two CPUs are not equal.

The single-thread performance of Intel 9th gen is not much behind from Intel 14th gen
"Not much" is severe understatement.

i5-14500 is between 40% to 60% better in single-core performance than i5-9600KF, more in multi-core performance;
link 1: https://www.topcpu.net/en/cpu-c/intel-core-i5-14500-vs-intel-core-i5-9600kf
link 2: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-intel_core_i5_14500-vs-intel_core_i5_9600kf
link 3: https://gadgetversus.com/processor/intel-core-i5-14500-vs-intel-core-i5-9600kf/
 
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Nyara

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DSC World has to be one of the weirdest coded games out there, for sure. It uses a game engine similar to Crysis 1 in design where CPU clocks (of a single core) are vital for base performance, at about a rate of 1ghz = 25FPS (in simple areas) to 10FPS (flying over the most complex areas).

Here an example of how absurd it gets:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt0ImDL0Kys


We are talking about a CPU with twice the single-threading (and various order of magnitude in multi-threading), but it just sees a 25% FPS improvement across the run, which is much closer to the difference in clocks (5500ghz / 4800ghz) of 15%. Notice also the run uses a RTX 3080 Ti, which is stronger than the RX 7800 XT.

The devs instead reworking the engine, have just worked around it. You can notice how RAM can go easily up to 42GB in some peaks. RAM and RAM speed are key to squish out more performance. Intel 14th gen (14500 onward) is bottlenecked by RAM, too, so assume a 5-15% lower performance in DDR4 setups, 15% for... well, games like this, precisely, and 5% for more normal stuff. There is also absurd amounts of storage used to make up things, this game uses 300GB at times easily, lol, and is extremely picky with the SSD speed.

Now the CPU IPC can see more usage, during VR (which if they want, buy a Nvidia card then), if the game is modded and the mods uses a CPU logic nowhere near as weird, or in multiplayer, or in specific actions (weapon swaps/other game logic calculations peaks adjacent). Those are indeed affected by CPU's IPC, and the better it is, the fewer mhz are wasted in those tasks and can go into the main engine instead. This is also where the multi-core mode (barely) affects, too.

Anyway, went too long. Since the way the CPU is used is just too inefficient, nearly the totality of how graphics are processed and run is done locally by the GPU, with fairly little use requested from the CPU, so graphics mostly bottleneck at quality/resolution level. The RX 5700 XT can just do 45 FPS'ish average on High quality 1440p regardless the CPU, whereas there is players getting up to 120 FPS 4k with the RX 6800 XT (like here https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/com...800xt_impressive_performance/?sort=confidence ).

Finally, if in doubt, there is plenty of tests of this game with the i9-9900K, sure, it is not the i5-9600K, but for the purpose of this game, both are very similar, 9900K has hyper-treading (unused by the game), has more L3 cache (just tangentially used by the game), has 8 cores instead 6 (unused by the game) and 400mhz more of stock clock (for a 8% uplift).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCzQjYSNZO4


The RTX 2060 is similar to his current GPU, and the RTX 3080 is similar to the RX 7800 XT. 50% uplift with a i7-9700K, and that is despite some RAM bottleneck going (both GPU and system RAM at 24GB), and graphics settings being put very modest low to medium, even then the i7-9700K is not bottlenecking it and with better graphics can easily get a 90% uplift with some tweaking.

Finally, if he wants to upgrade his CPU for stability/squish some extra FPS/mods/AI/multiplayer intense, a K model is definitively recommended, since clocks here are the bread and butter of the game, the lower clocked CPUs struggle. But if he only updates GPU now he will see significant results right away.

I personally recommend waiting to update the CPU since Intel K is going quite jam on W consumption in 12th-14th gen (my 13600KF can easily spike 250W), and Ultra 200 series (Arrow Lake) will go from 10nm++ to 2nm process, so it surely will be able to clock with better power efficiency and not punish the power supply much. He can also go Ryzen 7000 series right now, but clocks aren't way better than his current CPU, maybe 8000 series provide. DDR5 RAM will also provide another leap in performance, specially if installing more capacity, and the more the wait, the more the price drops for modules.
 
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Feb 19, 2024
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Guys, I’m truly grateful for your responses to this thread. The knowledge I’ve gained is invaluable.

After much consideration, I’ve decided to back away from my initial plan of simply upgrading the GPU. And despite Aeacus’ excellent argument for a more substantial upgrade, I’ve chosen to build a new high(er)-end configuration from scratch.

The unique requirements of DCS are giving me some headache. Considering my past and present configurations, it appears that the GPU is the first component that calls for an upgrade after a few years, closely followed by the CPU, MBO, and possibly the PSU.

CPU: Intel has always been my go-to choice, and I’ve never had an AMD CPU. However, with Intel, I had about enough of the constant need to purchase new MBO that supports next-gen CPUs. The upgrade choice is limited to the same CPU series. AMD seems to offer a more future-proof approach. (Not ditching Intel, but ready to try AMD.)
I do understand that anything above 6 cores should be enough, and my aim is for the highest single-core boost speed. I've come across a number of warnings on AMD’s 7950x3d, with the 7800x3d being widely regarded as a safer bet.

GPU: The choice is between the RTX 4080 Super and RX 7900 XTX. They say that DCS prefers Nvidia, but I’m not sure if that’s in general or just for VR players (which I’m not). The thought of splashing out over 2k € for a 4090 is horrifying, but I’m not ready to completely throw away that fantasy just yet.

Monitor: The decision between 2K or 4K is tough. Possibly widescreen. I’m certainly searching for a higher pixel density. This will obviously influence my GPU choice. (I’m thinking about the 4090 for 4K, and the 4080S / 7900 XTX for 2K.)

As for the rest, I’m confident I can figure it out along the way.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
 

Aeacus

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As for the rest, I’m confident I can figure it out along the way.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
It comes down to how thick your wallet is.

Gaming wise, R7 7800X3D does lead ahead of Intel 14th gen. Quite a bit actually,
Intel 14th gen review which also has Ryzen 7000-series as comparison: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/i...l-core-i9-14900k-i7-14700k-i5-14600k-the-tldr

GPU wise, besides dishing out €2K for RTX 4090 (best gaming GPU currently), you need to dish out ~€400 for proper, 1.6kW PSU as well, to power the thing.

If all what you want is pixel density, then 4K does it better than 2K ultrawide. 4K ultrawide would eat into the FPS you'd be getting.
But if you're going all out, then monitor wise, Samsung 57" Odyssey Neo G9 would be ideal. It has 7680x2160 reso (super ultrawide 4K), which is as wide as two standard 4K monitors, but in actuality, is one single monitor. Of course, all that luxury also costs quite a bit,
amazon DE: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Samsung-Odyssey-Monitor-Freesync-Response/dp/B0CDTVRYG5/

So, for the one who only plays DCS World, this monitor and extended view to the sides, would be ideal. :)
 
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Nyara

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I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
CPU/Mobo/Cooler:
  • CPU 7800 X3D
  • Motherboard X670 or B650 chipset, AM5 socket. Have at least 6400mhz memory frequency support, 4 RAM slots, 2 M2 slots, and any extra connectivity you want on top.
  • Cooler: Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 (EVO), Deepcool AG/AK620 or any good (see reviews) 240mm water cooling of your preference, all will perform similarly.
RAM:
  1. 32GB x 2 DDR5 or 16GB x 4 DDR5
  2. Frequency 6400mhz or more
  3. Latency Cl (CAS) 32 or lower (or up to 36 in 7000+ frequencies)

GPU:
  • RTX 50 series launch wait at end of year for Ultrawide 4K. Will surely cost $1000 or more.
  • RTX 4080 regular or Super for VR only
  • RX 7900 XTX for Ultrawide QuadHD or maxed out 4k regular screen.
  • RX 7900 GRE for near maxed out 4k regular screen.
  • RX 7800 XT for high 4k regular screen or maxed out Quad HD regular screen.
Power Supply: Gold, modular, Antec, Corsair, Super Flower, Seasonic, Thermaltake, Cooler Master, Be Quiet!, NZXT, among other labels. Can reuse your 650W for RX 7800 XT, maybe for RX 7900 GRE, can always try and see if no random shutdown. 750W for the other cards. 850W for future updates comfort or RTX 50 series, maybe.

Monitor: Your personal preference. Match respective GPU above. You will be doing 75-150 FPS, so have a screen that is at least 90hz and ideally 144hz, but 120hz is good, too. If Radeon, have FreeSync, if Nvidia, have FreeSync or G-Sync ideally.

Case: Any you wish with enough CPU cooler height compatibility and videocard lenght compatibility. If your motherboard is ATX then ATX, too. If your motherboard is Micro ATX, then ATX or Micro ATX. Buy a pack of 3-5 fans of Artic, Cooler Master, Thermalright, Thermaltake, Noctua, Corsair, Be Quiet!, among others, to fill up the remaining unused fan slots in your PC Case of choice. Can maybe reuse your current PC case and/or fans.
 
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