Question Best/cheapest route to getting strong wifi in a thick walled basement room

[stoneglow]

So this is an easy question from a technically minded person who knows very little about wifi. Thanks in advance for your suggestions and help.

• We have a modem in the living room on the main floor
• We have a double walled, soundproof room in the basement that needs wifi (newly built room)
• We need as strong wifi as possible (ideally around as strong as it comes out of the modem - 100MB) in this basement room
• A repeater in or near the basement room may work, but it's double walled and double ceiling'd with soundproofing so it's maybe not the best idea
• I'd prefer to use ethernet wire to connect the living room modem to a repeater in the soundproof basement room and have everything in that room connect wirelessly, except my one PC, which I would have to connect with an ethernet cable

QUESTIONS:

1. Is my best bet simply to call my ISP and have them come and connect/install a router in the basement room?
2. Since I expect they'll do whatever makes them the most money, I'm wondering if I just bought 50 ft of ethernet and passed it through a vent or some other opening (I'd call my handyman friend who built the basement room for this to make sure it's done the best way) and run it along the ceiling and connecting to a wireless router I buy on Amazon, is there any drawback to this?
3. If I go the DIY route, do I need to keep anything in mind about the necessary equipment or this setup beyond choosing a router that's powerful enough to carry our bandwidth (100MB)?
4. Can this be done with a repeater that has an ethernet input or do all repeaters only accept wifi input signals?

If you can detect by my questions that I don't understand something important (or even just relevant), please tell me, if you'd be so kind.

Thanks,

Stone

 

[USAFRet]

If you can run an ethernet cable, DO THAT.

That is far far better than any WiFi.

A single cable from your main router tot he desired location.
(get a 100 foot, not 50)

Then in the desired room, an inexpensive router, configured as an access point.
This gives you WiFi in there, as well as ethernet ports.

 

[stoneglow]

Awesome Fret, thank you!

Would a standard YouTube search bring me up to speed on setting up a router as an access point?

Thanks!

 

[gggplaya]

Do you have a coaxial cable tv oulet in the the basement or basement room? If so, you can use devices called MOCA adapters that allow full gigabit speeds through your cable network.

If not, it wouldn't be hard to install an ethernet line from your living room wall, straight down into the basement ceiling using an auger shank bit. It would only take me 20 minutes to install an outlet. Once you have a port on the ceiling, you can install a ceiling mounted wifi access point.

This is what I use to install wires between floors: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W9SIYXQ

 

[stoneglow]

Do you have a coaxial cable tv oulet in the the basement or basement room? If so, you can use devices called MOCA adapters that allow full gigabit speeds through your cable network.

If not, it wouldn't be hard to install an ethernet line from your living room wall, straight down into the basement ceiling using an auger shank bit. It would only take me 20 minutes to install an outlet. Once you have a port on the ceiling, you can install a ceiling mounted wifi access point.

This is what I use to install wires between floors: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W9SIYXQ

Thanks! I don't have coaxial cable downstairs, no, but there is one in the living room, yes. I will look up MOCA adapters to see if that can work on our Rogers (Toronto, Canada) network.

As far as routers, would something as simple as this be good enough for a 100MB network: https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Wirel...UuMTEifQ==&sprefix=router,aps,110&sr=8-7&th=1

Thanks

 

[USAFRet]

Awesome Fret, thank you!

Would a standard YouTube search bring me up to speed on setting up a router as an access point?

Thanks!

Even though this is old, still the same basics:

How do I convert my wireless router to a wireless AP (Access Point)?

How do I convert my wireless router to a wireless AP (Access Point)? While connected to the main router go Start then Run in XP - (Windows key plus R in Vista and Windows 7), then type in the following, including all the spaces:- cmd /k ipconfig /all -- then press Enter and from the black form...

forums.tomshardware.com

 

[gggplaya]

Thanks! I don't have coaxial cable downstairs, no, but there is one in the living room, yes. I will look up MOCA adapters to see if that can work on our Rogers (Toronto, Canada) network.

As far as routers, would something as simple as this be good enough for a 100MB network: https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Wireless-External-Archer-C20/dp/B016LL724S/ref=sr_1_7?crid=JQIL8N8TD30Y&keywords=router&qid=1666733256&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1Ljk3IiwicXNhIjoiNS41MyIsInFzcCI6IjUuMTEifQ==&sprefix=router,aps,110&sr=8-7&th=1

Thanks

You need a coax cable outlet in both rooms for MOCA to work.

I would run the ethernet line downstairs, it's not as much work as you think.

 

[stoneglow]

Even though this is old, still the same basics:

How do I convert my wireless router to a wireless AP (Access Point)?

How do I convert my wireless router to a wireless AP (Access Point)? While connected to the main router go Start then Run in XP - (Windows key plus R in Vista and Windows 7), then type in the following, including all the spaces:- cmd /k ipconfig /all -- then press Enter and from the black form...

forums.tomshardware.com

This is a great start - thanks - much appreciated! To be honest, I expect this to be the hardest part (as I probably understand drilling through walls and ceilings a bit more than I do routers and wifi setups) but this makes it seem pretty easy, thank!

 

[stoneglow]

You need a coax cable outlet in both rooms for MOCA to work.

I would run the ethernet line downstairs, it's not as much work as you think.

Yeah I'm definitely in favour of running an ethernet downstairs. As I've seen him build the room from scratch, I'm sure running a cable into it will be small potatoes for him. I think this is the route we'll go, thanks!

 

[stoneglow]

Can anyone here kindly recommend the cheapest reliable option for one or two WAPs based on the below?

• I am going to be in a double walled, soundproof room (with soundproofing insulation) that is 11 x 13 feet and will need internet there, INCLUDING a wired connection
  • So I'm picturing the router being on a wall, as high up the wall as it can go while still being plugged into an AC socket.
• In a perfect world it would provide internet to the entire basement (1000 sq ft) BUT since it's in a double walled room, I'm not sure if the signal will be interrupted for the rest of the basement
  • If that's the case, I'd connect the ethernet to a switch in the basement, and have a separate ethernet cable go from the switch to the soundproof room and setup two routers - one in the main basement area, and another in the small, soundproof room.

Does anyone have suggestions on:

• How likely it is these soundproof walls block the signal to the rest of the basement?
• What is the cheapest RELIABLE router to provide WAP internet AND ethernet access to a small room?
• What is the cheapest RELIABLE router to provide WAP internet AND ethernet access to a 1000 sq ft basement area?

 

[bill001g]

It takes very little to block wifi signals. Your microwave oven puts out 1000 times the power as the max allowed by a router on the same 2.4g frequency. The amount that is allowed to leak out is a tiny fraction of what a router can legally transmit at.
You can still see though the front glass of your microwave but the coating on it still blocks all that signal. No way to say how much walls will block way too many variables

So you buy any router you want and then run ethernet cables to the remote rooms and put AP in the remote rooms. AP are basically switches with wifi radios. Many people use cheap routers running as AP but it is not using the router part.
How the AP performs is not related to the router on the other end of the ethernet cable. It is purely a function of the wifi radio chips in device you are using as AP. The key thing to remember though is the AP is only half the connection the other is the end device.

It is the end device that is the cause of most issues. Most do not support fancy 4x4 mimo and many do not transmit at the maximum legal power to save on battery. Unless you have high end devices you do not need better than a AP with a 1200-1450 number.
Since you are running ethernet you might as well run cables to any device that need very high speed network.

You can buy actual AP if you want. The key difference is AP tend to be powered over the ethernet cable. If you need to mount them on the wall or ceiling not near power it is a good feature. It also would allow you to buy just 1 UPS rather than having UPS in every room if that is important to you.

 

[stoneglow]

It takes very little to block wifi signals. Your microwave oven puts out 1000 times the power as the max allowed by a router on the same 2.4g frequency. The amount that is allowed to leak out is a tiny fraction of what a router can legally transmit at.
You can still see though the front glass of your microwave but the coating on it still blocks all that signal. No way to say how much walls will block way too many variables

So you buy any router you want and then run ethernet cables to the remote rooms and put AP in the remote rooms. AP are basically switches with wifi radios. Many people use cheap routers running as AP but it is not using the router part.
How the AP performs is not related to the router on the other end of the ethernet cable. It is purely a function of the wifi radio chips in device you are using as AP. The key thing to remember though is the AP is only half the connection the other is the end device.

Thanks Bill,

If I understand correctly, I think we have a modem and also a router from the cable company, Rogers, but I have to admit I'm not sure how I would tell the difference between a router and a modem, so I'm not sure. If a router is a device that takes signal from a modem, via ethernet, and then transmits wirelessly or via ethernet then I BELIEVE we have a modem with a router right beside it, both from the cable company.

I was thinking of running an ethernet from the modem to an ethernet switch (poe) in the basement. From that ethernet switch, I was thinking two ethernet cables - 1 that goes to a (second) router in the soundproof room, and another that goes to another (third) router in the open area of the basement.

So we'd have 3 routers attached to the modem, 2 attached via an ethernet switch. Attached to the modem would be:

1. Router 1 - the one in the living room that provides coverage to the whole house (using a couple repeaters plugged in in the house)
2. an ethernet switch in the basement that, in turn, connects to:
   1. Router 2 - in the soundproof room in the basement
   2. Router 3 - in the main area of the basement

If the above makes sense, then I'm probably understanding the equipment enough to have a coherent setup plan and conversation. Does the above make sense?

It is the end device that is the cause of most issues. Most do not support fancy 4x4 mimo and many do not transmit at the maximum legal power to save on battery. Unless you have high end devices you do not need better than a AP with a 1200-1450 number.
Since you are running ethernet you might as well run cables to any device that need very high speed network.

Now, here's my ignorance showing - what is the 1200-1450 number? Mbps? Thanks.

You can buy actual AP if you want. The key difference is AP tend to be powered over the ethernet cable. If you need to mount them on the wall or ceiling not near power it is a good feature. It also would allow you to buy just 1 UPS rather than having UPS in every room if that is important to you.

I intend to mount the router in the soundproof room near a power source, and I can do the same for the one in the main part of the basement as well, so I won't need poe for these APs.

And I think I only have one PC that would need to be connected to a UPS, so I should be good on that score.

Thanks for all your help - it's starting to come together in my mind (I hope!)

 

[bill001g]

You kinda have 3 different devices or maybe 4 depending on how you count. These devices can be in the same physical box or in separate ones which makes the names you call them confusing.

So first you have what is commonly called a modem. This device really can be thought of as a media converter. Since ethernet can only go 100 meters you need a different technology to go more distance, you have stuff like fiber or coax or maybe even cell phone radio. It actually does more than just convert the physical media since the data is encoded differently than ethernet but it gets extremely complex fast. Best to think of it as a device that for example changes fiber into ethernet.

The next device is what is commonly called a router. The device home consumers use technically isn't router it is better called a gateway. Its primary function is to share the single public IP address the ISP gives you with all the internal devices. This is the NAT function. The only real reason you need this device in a home environment is that there is a lack of IP addresses. If the ISP could give you one for each of your internal devices you would not need this box.......or if you had many hundreds of devices you would need a actual router.

You next have a switch that purely is used to allow you to connect more ethernet cables.

And finally you have a wifi function. It purely converts from ethernet to wifi. All the security function and encryption is done in the wifi chips. In a way it does a function similar to a modem but is commonly called a AP when it is a completely separate box.

The reason you need to know these difference is because you are very limited in how you connect these.

The connection must go

----ISP--modem---router--switch--(end devices) & wifi AP.

You can not hook a switch to the modem directly but this is because the ISP only gives you 1 IP not so much there technology.

Now in general if a box that the ISP gives you has wifi and/or has multiple lan ports it is a modem and router in the same box. If it only has 1 ethernet ports it generally is purely a modem and you can only hook a router to it........I will assume you want more than 1 pc to run in your house.

Although they make routers without wifi you do not see them being sold to the general home user. So pretty much any box with wifi is a router ignoring stuff like repeater or mesh units which can also sometime be routers.


....so if you have not fallen asleep yet you want to ether run cables from your current router to the remote rooms if you have enough port or you can place a extra switch after the router to get the extra ports you need. If the device you have from the ISP is a modem/router then you techically direct connect mulitple devices to it but because you also have a second router you will have issue communicating between devices on the different routers.

What I mean by "number" is what a lot of people mistake for the speed a wifi device can run. This though is mostly a marketing thing where they try to get the biggest number because you know people think bigger number is always better...ie win11 is better than win10
What these numbers actually represent is the data encoding rates which is kinda the speed if you ignore all kinds of details like they add the speeds of the 2.4g radio to the 5g radio even though a single end device can only use 1 radio. They also add transmit and receive speeds together so that would be like calling a gigabit ethernet cable 2gbit but ethernet can actually send and receive 1gbit at the same time where wifi is half duplex and can not.

If you were to really want to know what the numbers mean this is the table I keep to figure out what the numbers really mean and even then it can be a bit tricky because you have to know for example how many radio chips are being used.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nKQ1O7abij/pubhtml?gid=1367372895&single=true

 

[stoneglow]

You kinda have 3 different devices or maybe 4 depending on how you count. These devices can be in the same physical box or in separate ones which makes the names you call them confusing.

So first you have what is commonly called a modem. This device really can be thought of as a media converter. Since ethernet can only go 100 meters you need a different technology to go more distance, you have stuff like fiber or coax or maybe even cell phone radio. It actually does more than just convert the physical media since the data is encoded differently than ethernet but it gets extremely complex fast. Best to think of it as a device that for example changes fiber into ethernet.

The next device is what is commonly called a router. The device home consumers use technically isn't router it is better called a gateway. Its primary function is to share the single public IP address the ISP gives you with all the internal devices. This is the NAT function. The only real reason you need this device in a home environment is that there is a lack of IP addresses. If the ISP could give you one for each of your internal devices you would not need this box.......or if you had many hundreds of devices you would need a actual router.

You next have a switch that purely is used to allow you to connect more ethernet cables.

And finally you have a wifi function. It purely converts from ethernet to wifi. All the security function and encryption is done in the wifi chips. In a way it does a function similar to a modem but is commonly called a AP when it is a completely separate box.

The reason you need to know these difference is because you are very limited in how you connect these.

The connection must go

----ISP--modem---router--switch--(end devices) & wifi AP.

You can not hook a switch to the modem directly but this is because the ISP only gives you 1 IP not so much there technology.

Now in general if a box that the ISP gives you has wifi and/or has multiple lan ports it is a modem and router in the same box. If it only has 1 ethernet ports it generally is purely a modem and you can only hook a router to it........I will assume you want more than 1 pc to run in your house.

Although they make routers without wifi you do not see them being sold to the general home user. So pretty much any box with wifi is a router ignoring stuff like repeater or mesh units which can also sometime be routers.


....so if you have not fallen asleep yet you want to ether run cables from your current router to the remote rooms if you have enough port or you can place a extra switch after the router to get the extra ports you need. If the device you have from the ISP is a modem/router then you techically direct connect mulitple devices to it but because you also have a second router you will have issue communicating between devices on the different routers.

What I mean by "number" is what a lot of people mistake for the speed a wifi device can run. This though is mostly a marketing thing where they try to get the biggest number because you know people think bigger number is always better...ie win11 is better than win10
What these numbers actually represent is the data encoding rates which is kinda the speed if you ignore all kinds of details like they add the speeds of the 2.4g radio to the 5g radio even though a single end device can only use 1 radio. They also add transmit and receive speeds together so that would be like calling a gigabit ethernet cable 2gbit but ethernet can actually send and receive 1gbit at the same time where wifi is half duplex and can not.

If you were to really want to know what the numbers mean this is the table I keep to figure out what the numbers really mean and even then it can be a bit tricky because you have to know for example how many radio chips are being used.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nKQ1O7abij/pubhtml?gid=1367372895&single=true

Ok, this is mostly crystal clear, thanks so much for taking the time to put together such a detailed response. I've also watched a few YouTube vids before reading this so this confirms my understanding, and actually extends it in a few ways that were not covered by the videos.

My setup is my modem has two ethernet ports. I'm not sure that means that the ISP has given us two IPs, mind you. They also gave us a router attached to the eth1 port of the modem, and it has 4 LAN (ethernet) ports on the router.

My goal is to setup a wireless access point in the basement in general PLUS an ethernet+wifi access point (therefore, a router) in the soundproof room in the basement (BSPR).

So I'd connect two ethernet cables to two LAN/ethernet ports on the back of the router and they would both go into the basement

One would connect to a WAP in the main basement area and the other would run along the ceiling to the BSPR and connect to a second router to allow for wired and wireless access in the BSPR.

QUESTION 1: Is there any problem connecting a router in the BSPR to the router on the main floor that the ISP gave us? I see you said that devices on one router will have "issues communicating" connecting to devices on the second router. I ASSUME (forgive me) that this means wireless printing from the main floor to the printer in the BSPR will have "issues" but not be impossible? I don't really require any connection between devices on the ISP router and devices on the BSPR router (beyond being able to text each other, etc.). We can go downstairs to print, etc., if necessary.

QUESTION 2: Since I have two routers going, does this mean if I walk from upstairs, where I was connected to the ISP router, to the BSPR (downstairs) then I have to connect to a different wifi network? Will it seamlessly switch for me or will it be a situation where I need to change the network I'm connected to?

Now the numbers stuff is certainly confusing.

QUESTION 3: Would you be willing to tell me if a device like this would be good to use as a router in the BSPR - https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Wirel...are-ca-3393531298000243000-20&geniuslink=true

I ask because I know it's router, has 4 eth ports, his wireless, and it's well reviewed, but I have no clue what the numbers mean. I'm assuming it couldn't get such good ratings if ppl found it was not strong enough to deliver reliable browsing speeds via wireless but I can't tell what numbers to evaluate and how. Would you be kind enough to tell me if this is sufficient to broadcast strong wifi in a small (10 x 15 ft) room?

QUESTION 4: Is there anything else I should be considering beyond the above?

Thanks so much for your help - I can say my understanding of setting up a home network has quintupled in the last week (from ignoramus to simpleton, anyway) - I appreciate all the help!

 

[bill001g]

1. That will work but unless you really need the router for some function, vpn or maybe you want the networks seperate, you are better off running the device you place in the BSPR as a AP. You can run any router as a AP but most modern ones have a function that converts it to AP Mode. Mostly the difference is if you can use the WAN port to connect or if you use one of the 4 lan ports to connect back to the main router.

2. So if we assume you run this as a AP then it likely will switch. Sometimes it is stubborn but it is the end device that is in full control not the network. Some devices work better than others. Most times the most you would have to do is stop and start the wifi client but this is more because it stayed connected to the previous signal even though there is a stronger signal.
If you use 2 routers you would have to manually change it. When you have 2 routers it is very similar to if you were to walk over to your neighbors house. For the same reason it is messy to share files and printers between neighbors the wifi roaming has similar problems.

3. Pretty much that is a very basic router. It only has 100mbps ethernet ports and it only supports some of the slower wifi data encoding rates. All depends on if you need more than 100mbps. The wifi maybe a bit slower but you might get 100mbps on that also.
Although I would have to look it up in the FCC database almost all routers transmit at the legal maximum. This signal strength rather than the encoding define the coverage. In any case you should have no issues using it in the same room. Most people use wifi with walls and floors inbetween and it works ok.

 

[stoneglow]

1. That will work but unless you really need the router for some function, vpn or maybe you want the networks seperate, you are better off running the device you place in the BSPR as a AP. You can run any router as a AP but most modern ones have a function that converts it to AP Mode. Mostly the difference is if you can use the WAN port to connect or if you use one of the 4 lan ports to connect back to the main router.

2. So if we assume you run this as a AP then it likely will switch. Sometimes it is stubborn but it is the end device that is in full control not the network. Some devices work better than others. Most times the most you would have to do is stop and start the wifi client but this is more because it stayed connected to the previous signal even though there is a stronger signal.
If you use 2 routers you would have to manually change it. When you have 2 routers it is very similar to if you were to walk over to your neighbors house. For the same reason it is messy to share files and printers between neighbors the wifi roaming has similar problems.

3. Pretty much that is a very basic router. It only has 100mbps ethernet ports and it only supports some of the slower wifi data encoding rates. All depends on if you need more than 100mbps. The wifi maybe a bit slower but you might get 100mbps on that also.
Although I would have to look it up in the FCC database almost all routers transmit at the legal maximum. This signal strength rather than the encoding define the coverage. In any case you should have no issues using it in the same room. Most people use wifi with walls and floors inbetween and it works ok.

Thanks so much bill, this is great info.

1 - I do need ethernet connections on the BSPR router so I'll configure it as an access point, but use the ethernet ports as well.

2 - I had thought access points were just extensions of your main router (even if they were technically routers before configured as access points) and didn't require switching but if they do, I can live with this as, 99% of the time, I won't be moving between networks for anything that requires speed (work and entertainment).

3 - The highest speed I'd ever seen us get was 100mbps so I figured that was good enough. Funny we had this exchange because this weekend, for the first time I've noticed, we got 195mbps speeds. So I'm convinced. I'll get the $90 CAD model that has 1gb ethernet ports - settled.

I believe I have all my questions answered and I'm very thankful to you. I hope life is smiling at you - you made a difference in one human's existence with this series of posts. Appreciated.

 

[bill001g]

You have to think of AP and router as a bunch of cell towers. Wifi unlike cell towers was never really designed with mobility of users as the primary use. Cell towers do all kinds of fancy stuff when you consider you can drive for many hundreds of mile even going state to state. You transparently move from tower to tower and your IP address does not change. Maybe you take a small glitch. In the case of cell networks the network is in full control of the end device, it controls all the radio channels it uses and even the transmit power.

Maybe wifi will get some of these feature in the future but there is very little demand for a roaming feature even in corporate installs. If you walk down to the conference room and your laptop connects to the new wifi node most the time people are happy. Now years ago we used to use VoIP on cell phones and run that on wifi so people could talk inside the office. This was back in the old days when the cell company used to charge per minute so you saved a lot of money using wifi. We spend huge amounts of time trying to get seamless roaming to work even loading special software onto cell phones. All that pretty much is dead with unlimited minutes and the ability to place small micro cell towers inside of buildings that get poor cell reception.

 

[alceryes]

Powerline ethernet should also be an option here.
As long as you don't have to traverse multiple breaker boxes, a $100 powerline ethernet pair should work great.

 

[Inthrutheoutdoor]

As far as routers, would something as simple as this be good enough for a 100MB network: https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Wireless-External-Archer-C20/dp/B016LL724S/ref=sr_1_7?crid=JQIL8N8TD30Y&keywords=router&qid=1666733256&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1Ljk3IiwicXNhIjoiNS41MyIsInFzcCI6IjUuMTEifQ==&sprefix=router,aps,110&sr=8-7&th=1

I would strongly recommend staying as far away as possible from anything from TP.....yea they're cheap, but then:

"Cheap is as cheap does" comes into play...

I've never found a single product of theirs, router or otherwise, that worked as advertised or lasted more than a few months before dying like a cold, grease-soaked french fry....

I recommend Netgear, D-Link, or Belkin as way better alternatives...they may costs a few moar $$, but will last much longer & have better firmware, which will allow you to easily set them up as an AP without any fuss, just a few clicks in the options & you're done !

And FYI, I think you (and everyone else) are way overthinking this whole affair..... just run the ethernet from your existing router to where you need it, connect the 2nd router, set the options to AP, and be happy !

 

[USAFRet]

I would strongly recommend staying as far away as possible from anything from TP.....yea they're cheap, but then:

"Cheap is as cheap does" comes into play...

I've never found a single product of theirs, router or otherwise, that worked as advertised or lasted more than a few months before dying like a cold, grease-soaked french fry....

And I have a couple of TP-Link switches, 5 port nd 8 port, in continuous use since Sept 2014.

 

[Inthrutheoutdoor]

And I have a couple of TP-Link switches, 5 port nd 8 port, in continuous use since Sept 2014.

Well perhaps the stuff they made back then was ok, but the more recent models (circa 2017 >) have all left me spouting profanities on a fairly regular basis, so I put them on my NO-BUY list in 2018 and have not looked back since

 

[USAFRet]

Well perhaps the stuff they made back then was ok, but the more recent models (circa 2017 >) have all left me spouting profanities on a fairly regular basis, so I put them on my NO-BUY list in 2018 and have not looked back since

And I have a 5 port POE switch from Oct 2020, still working as advertised.
24/7 operation since then, powering and connecting my security cameras.