Question Best cooler for nr200P

Sjnokkem

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For my mITX i am planning to go with air cooler instead of aio(not convinced).

First I was thinking about the noctua nh-u12a but this cooler doesnt fit with the tempered glass panel.

I know there are other good options like scythe mugen 5, scythe fuma2 and some noctua coolers.

So what is the best option to get lowest temps + lowest noise in the thempered glass version.
 

Phaaze88

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Some coolers do better on AMD's multi chip than they do on Intel's monolith, and vice versa. Ain't too many out there who've tried to compare them though - such as the following, for example:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/deepcool-ak620-dual-tower-cpu-cooler/ (part of the summary is that it does better on AMD than it does on Intel)

Try to put the biggest cooler you can fit on there, is about the best I could say.
https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mini-itx/masterbox-nr200p/#specifications
Clearance - CPU Cooler76mm (GPU in vertical position), 153mm (tempered glass side panel), 155mm (vented steel side panel)

in the tempered glass version.
Bit confused about this one, since they all come with a TG panel. Does this mean you're going to use the TG panel on the case's right side, instead of the vented steel side panel?
 

Karadjgne

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Biggest problem with aircooling mITX isn't the case, nor is it generally the case clearance. It's the motherboard.

MITX motherboards are Hong Kong. There's enough components like m.2, high-end audio, fan headers, heatsink fans, and power management heatsinking that mITX has reached the limits of real-estate on that 6x6" board. So because there's no more space to move 'out', they've taken to moving 'up'. Hong Kong. Everything around the i/o and even under the socket is nothing but skyscraper tall heatsinking, which makes it so most aircooling simply will not fit, the heatsink itself or the heat pipes come into contact with the motherboard.

So you might find 10 different cpu coolers that fit inside the case limitations, yet none will actually bolt up to the motherboard. That's the problem with coolers such as the Fuma2, the back of the heatsink is so low, it hits the motherboard long before hitting the cpu.

And what's not 'convinced' about liquid cooling?
 
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Sjnokkem

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Some coolers do better on AMD's multi chip than they do on Intel's monolith, and vice versa. Ain't too many out there who've tried to compare them though - such as the following, for example:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/deepcool-ak620-dual-tower-cpu-cooler/ (part of the summary is that it does better on AMD than it does on Intel)

Try to put the biggest cooler you can fit on there, is about the best I could say.
https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mini-itx/masterbox-nr200p/#specifications
Clearance - CPU Cooler76mm (GPU in vertical position), 153mm (tempered glass side panel), 155mm (vented steel side panel)


Bit confused about this one, since they all come with a TG panel. Does this mean you're going to use the TG panel on the case's right side, instead of the vented steel side panel?
Biggest problem with aircooling mITX isn't the case, nor is it generally the case clearance. It's the motherboard.

MITX motherboards are Hong Kong. There's enough components like m.2, high-end audio, fan headers, heatsink fans, and power management heatsinking that mITX has reached the limits of real-estate on that 6x6" board. So because there's no more space to move 'out', they've taken to moving 'up'. Hong Kong. Everything around the i/o and even under the socket is nothing but skyscraper tall heatsinking, which makes it so most aircooling simply will not fit, the heatsink itself or the heat pipes come into contact with the motherboard.

So you might find 10 different cpu coolers that fit inside the case limitations, yet none will actually bolt up to the motherboard. That's the problem with coolers such as the Fuma2, the back of the heatsink is so low, it hits the motherboard long before hitting the cpu.

And what's not 'convinced' about liquid cooling?
Not convinced because of the gamble it is with water pump and such. My motherboard is ASRock z690m. I was thinking of the scythe mugen 5 because i know it will fit in the case, if it will leave enough space for my motherboard is the next question.

To come back on the aeio thing. I dont have any experience with it and because of the gamble and not really any significant performance boost I am not really convinced(can be changed with good arguments tho).
 

Karadjgne

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There's no performance boost with liquid cooling, that's a marketing ploy used by companies to make ppl think it's something special, which is why they charge more for it.

The Corsair H-60 120mm aio gets exactly the same performance, same temps, same everything as the CoolerMaster Hyper212 Evo. Almost all 120mm single fan aios are @ 140w capacity. Move upto a 240mm AIO and you are at @ 250w capacity, same as the Noctua NH-D15 or beQuiet DarkRock Pro4. And that's the limit of Big Air. A 280mm aio is @ 300w, a 360mm AIO is @ 350w, and a 420mm aio is @ 400w. So big liquid has a definite advantage in capacity, it'll handle a bigger cpu. You won't be using an air cooler on a 300w 13900k.

But, most cases will fit a 240mm AIO, so even if there are case cooler clearance issues, you can get NH-D15 type cooling on most cpus, which will show a temp advantage over most lower tier air coolers. And the actual temp differences being due to the efficiency between the chosen fans and the radiator.

If it's made by man, it has a failure rate. That's undeniable Truth. If Corsair sold 1M aios last year, at a 0.01% failure rate (pretty accurate % actually) that's 100 ppl who got a bad pump, leak, rma for whatever reason. Out of those 100 ppl, only 10 had actual leaks, 9 of them inconsequential but a leak nonetheless. That leaves 1 person who got it bad, tube blew off, pump exploded, something. That 1 person made a video showing how bad it was and posted it on YouTube. Got a Million hits. That million ppl got on Amazon, reddit, Tom's, other forums and told 10Million ppl about just how dangerous aios were, and here's video proof.

1 person made a video, 10Million ppl are convinced AIO's are the Devil, and yet not one of the 999,900 happy Corsair customers said a thing, and if they did, it would be drowned out by 10 million voices and a single video.

AIO's are not any 'better' than air, or vice versa, they are just different. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

I personally have a full custom loop with 2x 240mm rads in a case smaller than the NR200P. It runs great and silent. It's far more cooling capacity than any air cooling for the cpu and gpu could provide. And a custom loop Always leaks, if it doesn't its a fluke.
 
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Sjnokkem

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There's no performance boost with liquid cooling, that's a marketing ploy used by companies to make ppl think it's something special, which is why they charge more for it.

The Corsair H-60 120mm aio gets exactly the same performance, same temps, same everything as the CoolerMaster Hyper212 Evo. Almost all 120mm single fan aios are @ 140w capacity. Move upto a 240mm AIO and you are at @ 250w capacity, same as the Noctua NH-D15 or beQuiet DarkRock Pro4. And that's the limit of Big Air. A 280mm aio is @ 300w, a 360mm AIO is @ 350w, and a 420mm aio is @ 400w. So big liquid has a definite advantage in capacity, it'll handle a bigger cpu. You won't be using an air cooler on a 300w 13900k.

But, most cases will fit a 240mm AIO, so even if there are case cooler clearance issues, you can get NH-D15 type cooling on most cpus, which will show a temp advantage over most lower tier air coolers. And the actual temp differences being due to the efficiency between the chosen fans and the radiator.

If it's made by man, it has a failure rate. That's undeniable Truth. If Corsair sold 1M aios last year, at a 0.01% failure rate (pretty accurate % actually) that's 100 ppl who got a bad pump, leak, rma for whatever reason. Out of those 100 ppl, only 10 had actual leaks, 9 of them inconsequential but a leak nonetheless. That leaves 1 person who got it bad, tube blew off, pump exploded, something. That 1 person made a video showing how bad it was and posted it on YouTube. Got a Million hits. That million ppl got on Amazon, reddit, Tom's, other forums and told 10Million ppl about just how dangerous aios were, and here's video proof.

1 person made a video, 10Million ppl are convinced AIO's are the Devil, and yet not one of the 999,900 happy Corsair customers said a thing, and if they did, it would be drowned out by 10 million voices and a single video.

AIO's are not any 'better' than air, or vice versa, they are just different. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

I personally have a full custom loop with 2x 240mm rads in a case smaller than the NR200P. It runs great and silent. It's far more cooling capacity than any air cooling for the cpu and gpu could provide. And a custom loop Always leaks, if it doesn't its a fluke.
Thank you for the good explanation. I was little informed about AIOs just as I am little informed about custom loops. I have built a couple pc's before but always with relatively basic air coolers. Are there any AIOs that you recommend? Especially for the nr200p? If you could explain a but more about custom loops would be great to but no problem if you dont want to. The thing with cooling in the nr200p is that you have a lot of choices but at the same time you dont so I am trying to figure what is best for me.

Thank you
 

Sjnokkem

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Karadjgne

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Tbh, there's little to no realistic gains with OC anymore, both amd and Intel are pushing performance to the limits as is. On top of that, most games don't use all 12 threads, so locking cores at max turbo or higher is a totally unnecessary amount of power and heat wasted, requiring better cooling, and seeing no real gains over the boost offered by turbo for the cores and threads that are used.

OC if you want, plan for it before hand, but don't be surprised if all it does is heat up your room and fps only goes up a few frames.

The stock aio cooler in the P is higher capacity than anything else you could put into it, it guaranteed fits which is hard with mITX sometimes, part of the reason it's in there.
 

Sjnokkem

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Tbh, there's little to no realistic gains with OC anymore, both amd and Intel are pushing performance to the limits as is. On top of that, most games don't use all 12 threads, so locking cores at max turbo or higher is a totally unnecessary amount of power and heat wasted, requiring better cooling, and seeing no real gains over the boost offered by turbo for the cores and threads that are used.

OC if you want, plan for it before hand, but don't be surprised if all it does is heat up your room and fps only goes up a few frames.

The stock aio cooler in the P is higher capacity than anything else you could put into it, it guaranteed fits which is hard with mITX sometimes, part of the reason it's in there.
In the P version is no aio included, i think in the max version there is but not sure. So if you have any recommendations for an aio otherwise i think i will go with the mugen 5 air cooler
 

Phaaze88

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Almost all 120mm single fan aios are @ 140w capacity. Move upto a 240mm AIO and you are at @ 250w capacity, same as the Noctua NH-D15 or beQuiet DarkRock Pro4. And that's the limit of Big Air. A 280mm aio is @ 300w, a 360mm AIO is @ 350w, and a 420mm aio is @ 400w.
I see you post that from time to time, but is this a generalization or theoretical thing?
Fluid flow rate is crap on AIO/CLCs, which is why users are recommended to max out the pump speed, or sacrifice cooling efficiency. Custom loops got flow rate covered, but lots of turns and curves reduces flow rate too.

Bigger radiators have a little more fluid in them. Pretty simple how that one works.

Most AIO/CLCs use moderately high FPI radiators. Custom loop varies a lot more.
The higher FPI units have greater thermal tolerance, but requires stronger(also louder) fans to move air through; more aggressive fan curves are optimal and running these at lower rpm curves comes at a larger performance hit compared to lower FPI units.
The lower FPI ones go in the opposite direction: less of a performance hit at lower rpm curves, but max performance is lower than high FPI.
I reckon that's why Arctic made their Liquid Freezer IIs 38mm thick with 17PFI; most others are rocking 21-23FPI at 27-30mm thick. Meanwhile, this Eisbaer Aurora is 15FPI at 30mm thick...
Bit of a balancing act on which(perf/low noise operation) is more important to the user, though I'd imagine most don't like loud fans or running them too high; we've got coolers performing better than others in the same class simply because the fans go Vroom!, but most aren't going to run them like that, and the actual gap a cooler like that has in practical use shrinks to the point of irrelevancy.

Smaller process nodes have greater thermal density; increases cooling difficulty. Alder/Rocket Lake is harder to cool than Comet/Rocket Lake. Ada is harder to cool than Turing.

Cpus have more 'layers' than gpus, so out of the gate, cpu cooling is less efficient than gpu cooling; more layers is worse.
Some of these 300-400w gpus had/have 240-360mm radiators attached to them and the cooler handles them like it's just another day.
Try that with an unleashed i9 or similar, and those same size coolers struggle. Like, WUT?
 

Karadjgne

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I see you post that from time to time, but is this a generalization or theoretical thing?
There's been no set results because non exist. There's only 6 (IIRC) companies that actually manufacture the rads that aios use and they all use basically the same blueprint, but there are some slight differences. Outsourcing the rads, it becomes a numbers game, Corsair for instance doesn't stick with just one, it uses all 6,whomever has the best deal at the time, which is why some models differ slightly from others. But performance is all within margin of error. The difference is all in the fans. Arctic, like Fractal, borrowed ideas and manufacturing outside of the 6, from ppl who make custom loops, like Aerocool (Fractal Kelvin) and produced superior results to the standard aio.
So yes, it's a generalization of capacity as far as rads go, but just like the NH-D15, that's a 250w heatsink, but the temps are due to the Noctua fans and the efficiency ratio of the fan to heatsink. With the Arctic fans on that heatsink, it might be 240w, with EK Vardars it might be 270w. So the generalization is more of an average in a range.
The higher FPI units have greater thermal tolerance, but requires stronger(also louder) fans to move air through; more aggressive fan curves are optimal and running these at lower rpm curves comes at a larger performance hit compared to lower FPI units.
Not necessarily. I have 2 rads, both optimized for 900 or lower rpm. A Hardware Labs Black Ice GTS240 - 30mm 16fpi, and a XSPC Tx240 - 20mm 22fpi. Higher fin density generally requires higher SP, not necessarily higher rpm, so the 2 rads are somewhat balanced, but the GTS has a slightly higher wattage capacity. It all depends on the total design of the rad, how many and size of the heat pipes, whether it's loop or throughput design, fpi, thickness, straight or split fin, flow characteristics etc. A 240mm rad can vary a great deal in capacity ranging from @ 200w to over 500w. My rads work best at a flow of 1.0 and 750-1000rpm, actually losing performance or not gaining any efficiency or effectiveness above that range. Other rads have a more linear efficiency line, not a bell curve, where higher rpm (and noise), higher sp just keep raising the capacity. One rad in particular never stopped gaining, even with 5k Deltas attached to it.

So the actual rad itself plays a marked amount in capacity, and that varies quite a bit, but aio rads are so similar in overall design that they are essentially the same thing, excepting the outliers like EK, Arctic, Fractal Kelvin etc.

A 240mm AIO generally speaking is @ 250w, has basically the same performance characteristics as the big air coolers, the efficiency of either, and the resultant temps, depending on the fans. The 2 best aio rad fans for years was the Scythe Gental Typhoon and the Noctua NF-F12. Neither had impressive SP, neither had impressive rpm, they both ran @ 1000rpm, but the combination of SP and cfm and rpm was as close to perfect efficiency ratio as you'd get with the aio rad design. Many fans had higher rpm, or higher cfm or higher sp, but the ratio was off, so the efficiency was off, so they didn't work as well. But. Those fans also didn't do too well either on many loop rads, wrong ratios.

My ddc pump runs @ 2000rpm. It can run upto closer to 4000rpm, but that just raises flow (and noise) well above @ 1.0gpm (230L/h) to @ 4.4gpm (1000L/h) and does basically nothing but make noise. Asetek pumps don't need to be run at 100%, it's just advised since you need software control via thermal readings to operate them safely at anything less, and that means Cam or iCue, which many don't like or wont/don't need or understand. Easier to just plug n play.

Resistance also plays a major role. Most aios use a high resistance, low flow design, higher head pressure, but loops tend to use lower resistance, higher flow designs, so don't require as much head pressure, but that's available if more components are added to the loop. Aios run @ 60-450L/h, which is fine for a single rad, but loops can tax even a D5 at 1500L/h, some requiring 2x ddc or D5 pumps.
 
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