Best strategy hard drive swapping?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:

> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:eYWAe.414693$cg1.372357@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>>
>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>>I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>>> without USB.
>>>
>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>>
>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>>
>> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting
>> on the desktop for this purpose but trays work.
>
>
> Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even if
> you are careful you still have problems with vibrations, etc and the
> airflow to the box is not correct with the case removed (i usually use a
> outside fan when I remove the case).

I've noticed no difference in reliability or stability or operating
temperatures with the case open or closed on most machines. If there's a
problem it's generally on a tightly cased machine with marginal cooling and
often leaving the case open improves the situation. PCs just aren't that
fragile.

>>> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
>>> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
>>> that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
>>> drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
>>> the older 8GB drives?
>>
>> Yes, using an SATA addon card.
>
> I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick to
> ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?

What ever gave you that idea?
<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148068>

Your particular motherboard may have an 8, 32, or 128 gig limit, depending
on its age, and that may or may not be addressable by a BIOS upgrade.

>>> The two main machines are dell and amd
>>> duron.
>>>
>>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
>>> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
>>> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
>>> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.
>>
>>
>> The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE
>> controller. Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.
>>
>>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
>>> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
>>> caddies.
>>
>> Ignore such nay sayers.
>
> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy
> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended. I would think
> that their could be problems with the additional connections with a
> caddy.

They're not _that_ touchy. The caddies work fine as long as you don't try
to hot-swap them. Cold swap is no different than pulling a drive out and
replacing it.

>>> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
>>
>> Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.
>>
>>> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
>>> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
>>> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
>>> installation compatibility?
>>
>> Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.
>>
>>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>>
>>
>> www.kingwin.com
>>
>> I use the KF-83.
>
> looks good, but as I said others have had problems with them at least
> reported in this group. maybe not related to the hardware, maybe their
> configurations or user error.

Probably user error. I've had no trouble with Kingwin. But then I notice
that I seem to have far less trouble with my systems than do many posters.

>>> What
>>> should I look for in the specs specifically?
>>
>> Fans, shock mounting and price.
>>
>>> If there are better
>>> alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
>>> an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
>>> that.
>>
>> You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.
>
> originally I just thought since electrons travel at the speed of light
> there should be no problem with a longer cable,but others have warned me
> against this.

(a) Electrons do not travel at the speed of light. If all the energy in the
universe were collected and all the matter converted to energy and that
energy was applied to a single electron it would not reach the velocity of
light, although it would be pretty close. The propagation velocity in
wires is typically 60-80% of the velocity of light.

(b) The velocity makes no difference--interference and cross talk are the
issues. Television and radio broadcasts _do_ travel at the velocity of
light, but they are not free from interference.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
>>>> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.

>>> Usual nonsense.

>> We'll see...

>>> SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power down swapping
>>> works just fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against it.

>> The problem with ATA removable drive bays is that they flout the CABLE specs
>> in the ATA standard.

> Nope.

Yep, have a look at the specs of the cable in the standard.

Those bays use nothing like that between the
drive connector and the controller connector.

>> What you have with every removable drive bay is nothing like what the ATA
>> standard specifys FOR THE CABLE.

> Nope.

Yep, have a look at the specs of the cable in the standard.

Those bays use nothing like that between the
drive connector and the controller connector.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote

>> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others without USB.

>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.

>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.

> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting on the
> desktop for this purpose

Some drives get stinking hot surprisingly quickly when used like that.

> but trays work.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont

>> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
>> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so that will mean
>> going to the SATA standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives?

> Yes, using an SATA addon card.

>> The two main machines are dell and amd duron.

>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
>> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
>> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
>> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

> The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE controller.
> Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.

Makes more sense to flash the bios if they dont.

>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I read a
>> thread on this group that some have had problems with these caddies.

> Ignore such nay sayers.

Ignore fools so stupid that they didnt even
notice the problem with the IBN 75GXPs.

>> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy

> Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.

Ignore fools so stupid that they didnt even
notice the problem with the IBN 75GXPs.

>> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
>> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
>> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
>> installation compatibility?

> Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.

>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?

> www.kingwin.com

> I use the KF-83.

>> What should I look for in the specs specifically?

> Fans, shock mounting and price.

>> If there are better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought
>> of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do that.

> You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy

>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".

>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.

>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.

>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.

True.

>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves

Nope.

>> or general design.

Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.

That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
doesnt help with the length, just the speed.

>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.

They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.

> The problem is electron speed.

Nope.

> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.

Nothing to do with electron speed,
thats the rise time of the signal edges.

> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.

Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
speed which is the same in both types of cable.

> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.

Well enough if they arent too long.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an earlier
>> thread in this group (see google) argues that these Kingwin drives
>> are not ATA standard compatible and have caused problems especially
>> when using multiple drives. This is not my experience but comments
>> by others here.
>
>
> "Hard drive problems" are frequently *heat* problems. That's why I
> chose the Kingwin tray with the flat fan in the bottom of the tray. Kingwin
> also makes the kind with 0 thru 2 fans in the front with room
> for a 3rd, but a hardware review of the flat fan gave it high marks
> for cooling effectiveness. My experience bears that out. At no time
> does the HD mounted inside the removable tray feel any warmer than
> one mounted normally inside the case. In fact, it feels cooler. Maybe that's
> why I've had no problems with the removable drive.

Nope, plenty have had other problems like the one whoever it was
rubbed your nose in, the drive not always being visible at boot time.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've had, I used
caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors. Rather, I used an
identical Promise ide controller in each. No bios recognition differences
as a consequence. Used Kingston caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap
only. Standard 18" 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower
case. Just be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if you choose
instead of cable select.

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> without USB.
>
> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>
> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
> that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
> drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
> the older 8GB drives? The two main machines are dell and amd
> duron.
>
> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.
>
> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
> caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
> installation compatibility?
>
> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best? What
> should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are better
> alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
> an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
> that.
>
> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:

> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are
>>>>> so touchy
>
>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>
>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>
>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>
>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>
> True.
>
>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>
> Nope.
>
>>> or general design.
>
> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>
> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>
>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>
> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>
>> The problem is electron speed.
>
> Nope.
>
>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>
> Nothing to do with electron speed,
> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>
>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>
> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>
>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>
> Well enough if they arent too long.
>

So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables, is
that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type of
cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that I
could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry if
that's a dumb question,but my background in digital electronics is
limited.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:

> on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:
>
>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are
>>>>>> so touchy
>>
>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>
>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>
>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>>
>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>>
>> True.
>>
>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>>> or general design.
>>
>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>>
>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>>
>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>>
>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>>
>>> The problem is electron speed.
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>>
>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>>
>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>>
>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>>
>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>>
>> Well enough if they arent too long.
>>
>
> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables, is
> that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type of
> cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that I
> could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry if
> that's a dumb question,but my background in digital electronics is
> limited.

Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked up and
wrapped in a piece of tubing. You won't get any more distance out of them
than flat cables and they're more out of spec than any halfway decent caddy
would ever be. Their main utility is to make geek-chic machines with
windows in the side look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to
ubergeeks.

If you want more span then you need to go to a different signalling
method--you can get an SATA-to-PATA bridge or a Firewire bridge or a USB2
bridge, all of which will allow you longer cables than standard PATA, but
you'll then have the bridge to contend with which can introduce problems of
its own.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" wrote:
> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been
> hacked up and wrapped in a piece of tubing.


Not true. The vast majority of "round" cables consist of
each data line twisted together with a ground line and all the
twisted pairs enclosed in a plastic sheath. There are also
shielded "round" cables wherein the twisted pairs are enclosed
in a sheath of braided aluminum or copper wires and the
whole assembly enclosed in a clear plastic sheath.


> Their main utility is to make geek-chic machines with
> windows in the side look k3w1 to wannabees and provide
> a good laugh to ubergeeks.


Again not true. "Round" cables are primarily used to
provide better ventilation inside the PC's case as they are
more compact and don't have to be folded origami-style
to make them turn corners. They also come in a variety
of lengths, and they come in 2-connector form (to serve
just one IDE drive) as well as the normal 3-connector
form which serves two IDE drives. Here, again, is a picture
of the various lengths and configurations:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/cables-ata-100-133-round-cables.html

Here is an example of the braided copper shield cable:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/rc18hd1-cop.html

"Round" cables are just the thing to tidy up the inside of a
PC's case, and in my system, they make the use of 3 hard drives,
an optical drive and a Zip drive possible.

*TimDaniels*
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:

> Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> you choose instead of cable select.
>
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
> message
> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>> without USB.
>>
>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>
>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>>
>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>> installations to a minumum.
>>
>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>>
>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>> out you cannot do that.
>>
>> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>>
Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

on 13 Jul 2005, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid>
wrote in news:db4dfa01922@news2.newsguy.com:

> HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:
>
>> on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:
>>
>>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>
>>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces
>>>>>>> are so touchy
>>>
>>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>>
>>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>>
>>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>>>
>>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>>> or general design.
>>>
>>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>>>
>>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>>>
>>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>>>
>>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>>>
>>>> The problem is electron speed.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>>>
>>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>>>
>>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>>>
>>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>>>
>>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>>>
>>> Well enough if they arent too long.
>>>
>>
>> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables,
>> is that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type
>> of cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that
>> I could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry
>> if that's a dumb question,but my background in digital
>> electronics is limited.
>
> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked
> up and wrapped in a piece of tubing. You won't get any more
> distance out of them than flat cables and they're more out of
> spec than any halfway decent caddy would ever be. Their main
> utility is to make geek-chic machines with windows in the side
> look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to ubergeeks.
>
> If you want more span then you need to go to a different
> signalling method--you can get an SATA-to-PATA bridge or a
> Firewire bridge or a USB2 bridge, all of which will allow you
> longer cables than standard PATA, but you'll then have the
> bridge to contend with which can introduce problems of its own.
>

Ok, thanks, looks like caddies are the best way to go if I must
have easily removable IDE drives. I took a quick look at three
different mfg. pages, including kingwin and all the cheaper models
were plastic, no fan for like $30. Guess I did not look hard
enough. If you have a model number for the $20 alum. fan model,
can you give that to me? Thanks.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote
> Ok, thanks, looks like caddies are the best way to go if I must
> have easily removable IDE drives. I took a quick look at three
> different mfg. pages, including kingwin and all the cheaper models
> were plastic, no fan for like $30. Guess I did not look hard
> enough. If you have a model number for the $20 alum. fan model,
> can you give that to me? Thanks.


Here it is again is the direct link to the Kingwin model with the
fan in the bottom of the tray:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=25&ID=136
As you can see, the model no. is KF-101-IPF .
If you want it in black, here is the link:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=25&ID=135
And as you can see, that model no. KF-101-IPF-B .

Now go to Nextag.com and enter the model no. and do the search,
and you'll find the tray and rack pair going for $25. Search more
diligently, and you'll find lower prices.

*TimDaniels*
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:

> on 13 Jul 2005, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid>
> wrote in news:db4dfa01922@news2.newsguy.com:
>
>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:
>>
>>> on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>> news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:
>>>
>>>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces
>>>>>>>> are so touchy
>>>>
>>>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>>>
>>>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>>>>
>>>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>>>>
>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>>> or general design.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>>>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>>>>
>>>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>>>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>>>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>>>>
>>>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>>>>
>>>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>>>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>>>>
>>>>> The problem is electron speed.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>>>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>>>>
>>>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>>>>
>>>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>>>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>>>>
>>>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>>>>
>>>> Well enough if they arent too long.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables,
>>> is that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type
>>> of cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that
>>> I could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry
>>> if that's a dumb question,but my background in digital
>>> electronics is limited.
>>
>> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked
>> up and wrapped in a piece of tubing. You won't get any more
>> distance out of them than flat cables and they're more out of
>> spec than any halfway decent caddy would ever be. Their main
>> utility is to make geek-chic machines with windows in the side
>> look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to ubergeeks.
>>
>> If you want more span then you need to go to a different
>> signalling method--you can get an SATA-to-PATA bridge or a
>> Firewire bridge or a USB2 bridge, all of which will allow you
>> longer cables than standard PATA, but you'll then have the
>> bridge to contend with which can introduce problems of its own.
>>
>
> Ok, thanks, looks like caddies are the best way to go if I must
> have easily removable IDE drives. I took a quick look at three
> different mfg. pages, including kingwin and all the cheaper models
> were plastic, no fan for like $30. Guess I did not look hard
> enough. If you have a model number for the $20 alum. fan model,
> can you give that to me? Thanks.

Just go to newegg.com and search on "kingwin fan" and then pick "disk
accessories off the menu to eliminate separate fans.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>
> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> > you choose instead of cable select.
> >
> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
> > message
> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> >> without USB.
> >>
> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
> >>
> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
> >>
> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
> >> installations to a minumum.
> >>
> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
> >>
> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
> >> out you cannot do that.
> >>
> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
> >>
> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.

Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for yourself.
Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs are
always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided for 32
bit access (faster) in windows. Windows perceives these connected drives as
pseudo-scsi at that point.
There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Lil' Dave wrote:

> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
>> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>>
>> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
>> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
>> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
>> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
>> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
>> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
>> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
>> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
>> > you choose instead of cable select.
>> >
>> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>> > message
>> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>> >> without USB.
>> >>
>> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>> >>
>> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>> >>
>> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>> >> installations to a minumum.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>> >>
>> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>> >> out you cannot do that.
>> >>
>> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>> >>
>> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
>> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
>> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>
> Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for yourself.
> Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
> Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs are
> always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
> otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
> connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided for
> 32
> bit access (faster) in windows.

All current Windows uses 32-bit access. Some uses 64-bit access where
available. And all current versions _do_ require a driver for Promise and
other third-party host adapters unless they're old enough for one to have
been bundled.

You're thinking windows 9x, which has been dead for several years.

> Windows perceives these connected drives
> as pseudo-scsi at that point.
> There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
> works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
> this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since
>>>>>> the IDE interfaces are so touchy

>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".

>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.

>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.

>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.

>> True.

>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves

>> Nope.

>>>> or general design.

>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.

>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.

>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.

>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.

>>> The problem is electron speed.

>> Nope.

>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.

>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.

>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.

>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.

>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.

>> Well enough if they arent too long.

> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended
> round cables, is that worth pursuing.

Nope. they flout the standard even more comprehensively.

If you need longer cables, use SATA instead.

> IOW is there any way I can run any type of cable that
> would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that I
> could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box?

Yes, SATA can do that. So can USB2 and firewire

> Sorry if that's a dumb question,

Nar, its a very sensible question.

> but my background in digital electronics is limited.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote
> J. Clarke wrote

>> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked up and wrapped
>> in a piece of tubing.

> Not true. The vast majority of "round" cables consist of each data line
> twisted together with a ground line and all the twisted pairs enclosed in a
> plastic sheath.

Wrong. And that is electrically very different
to the only thing that the standard allows, a
flat ribbon with every second wire grounded.

> There are also shielded "round" cables wherein the twisted pairs are enclosed
> in a sheath of braided aluminum or copper wires and the whole assembly
> enclosed in a clear plastic sheath.

That is electrically very different to the
only thing that the standard allows, a flat
ribbon with every second wire grounded.

>> Their main utility is to make geek-chic machines with windows in the side
>> look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to ubergeeks.

> Again not true.

Fraid so.

> "Round" cables are primarily used to provide better ventilation inside the
> PC's case

Wrong again.

> as they are more compact

Pity they arent normally in the main airflow.

> and don't have to be folded origami-style to make them turn corners.

Most dont need to turn any corners in decent cases.

> They also come in a variety of lengths,

So do the ATA standard cables.

> and they come in 2-connector form (to serve just one IDE drive) as well as the
> normal 3-connector form which serves two IDE drives.

So do the ATA standard cables.

> Here, again, is a picture of the various lengths and configurations:
> http://www.svcompucycle.com/cables-ata-100-133-round-cables.html

Yawn.

> Here is an example of the braided copper shield cable:
> http://www.svcompucycle.com/rc18hd1-cop.html

Yawn.

> "Round" cables are just the thing to tidy up the inside of a PC's case,

I dont flout standards for such a trivial reason thanks.

> and in my system, they make the use of 3 hard drives, an optical drive and a
> Zip drive possible.

Just as possible with ATA standard cables in a properly designed case.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" wrote:
>> They also come in a variety of lengths,
>
> So do the ATA standard cables.


But the ATA specs call for a maximum length of 18-inches.
See www.t13.org/docs2004/d1532v2r4b-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf ,
page 29. "Round" cables come in lengths shorter and longer
than that.

*TimDaniels*
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for the good information I
received from my OP in this thread.

If you can get past all the pissing contests in this group there is alot
of useful info to be had ;-).

HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138:

> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> without USB.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>> They also come in a variety of lengths,

>> So do the ATA standard cables.

> But the ATA specs call for a maximum length of 18-inches.

No news to me, boy.

> See www.t13.org/docs2004/d1532v2r4b-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf , page 29.

No need to.

> "Round" cables come in lengths shorter and longer than that.

So do flat ribbon cables.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Lil' Dave <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote:
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
>> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>>
>>> Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
>>> had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
>>> Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
>>> bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
>>> caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
>>> 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
>>> be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
>>> consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
>>> you choose instead of cable select.
>>>
>>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>>> message
>>> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>>> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>>>> without USB.
>>>>
>>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>>>
>>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>>>> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>>>> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>>>> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>>>> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>>>> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>>>> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>>>>
>>>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>>>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>>>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>>>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>>>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>>>> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>>>> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>>>> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>>>> installations to a minumum.
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>>>> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>>>> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>>>> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>>>> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>>>> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>>>> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>>>>
>>>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>>>> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>>>> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>>>> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>>>> out you cannot do that.
>>>>
>>>> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>>>>
>> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
>> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
>> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>
> Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for
> yourself. Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them
> locally. Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences,

Landing zones are completely irrelevant, they have
been ignored by hard drives for years and years now.

> so HDs are always seen the same way. No driver needed for low
> level dos, linux or otherwise access to these connected hard drives.
> Windows sees these connected hard drives without a driver.
> A windows driver is provided for 32 bit access (faster) in windows.
> Windows perceives these connected drives as pseudo-scsi at that point.
> There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like
> and works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you
> intend this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:db5pda2abg@news2.newsguy.com...
> Lil' Dave wrote:
>
> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> >> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
> >> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> >>
> >> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> >> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> >> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> >> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> >> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> >> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> >> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> >> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> >> > you choose instead of cable select.
> >> >
> >> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
> >> > message
> >> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> >> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> >> >> without USB.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> >> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
> >> >>
> >> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
> >> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
> >> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
> >> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
> >> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
> >> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
> >> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
> >> >>
> >> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> >> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> >> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> >> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> >> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
> >> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
> >> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
> >> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
> >> >> installations to a minumum.
> >> >>
> >> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
> >> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
> >> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
> >> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
> >> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
> >> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
> >> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
> >> >>
> >> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
> >> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
> >> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
> >> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
> >> >> out you cannot do that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
> >> >>
> >> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
> >> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
> >> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
> >
> > Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for
yourself.
> > Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
> > Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs
are
> > always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
> > otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
> > connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided
for
> > 32
> > bit access (faster) in windows.
>
> All current Windows uses 32-bit access. Some uses 64-bit access where
> available. And all current versions _do_ require a driver for Promise and
> other third-party host adapters unless they're old enough for one to have
> been bundled.
>
> You're thinking windows 9x, which has been dead for several years.
>

You're right of course, John.
Many older PCs can't install XP for various reasons. My crystal ball is in
the shop, so was guessing on the appropriate OS here. Thus my input on
msdos etc. and related Win 9X/ME access.
Am glad your crystal ball is working fine.

> > Windows perceives these connected drives
> > as pseudo-scsi at that point.
> > There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
> > works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
> > this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
>
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Lil' Dave wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message
> news:db5pda2abg@news2.newsguy.com...
>> Lil' Dave wrote:
>>
>> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> > news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> >> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
>> >> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>> >>
>> >> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
>> >> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
>> >> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
>> >> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
>> >> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
>> >> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
>> >> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
>> >> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
>> >> > you choose instead of cable select.
>> >> >
>> >> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>> >> > message
>> >> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> >> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>> >> >> without USB.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> >> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>> >> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>> >> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>> >> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>> >> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> >> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>> >> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> >> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> >> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> >> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> >> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>> >> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>> >> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>> >> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>> >> >> installations to a minumum.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>> >> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>> >> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>> >> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>> >> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>> >> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>> >> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>> >> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>> >> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>> >> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>> >> >> out you cannot do that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>> >> >>
>> >> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
>> >> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
>> >> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>> >
>> > Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for
> yourself.
>> > Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
>> > Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs
> are
>> > always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
>> > otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
>> > connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided
> for
>> > 32
>> > bit access (faster) in windows.
>>
>> All current Windows uses 32-bit access. Some uses 64-bit access where
>> available. And all current versions _do_ require a driver for Promise
>> and other third-party host adapters unless they're old enough for one to
>> have been bundled.
>>
>> You're thinking windows 9x, which has been dead for several years.
>>
>
> You're right of course, John.
> Many older PCs can't install XP for various reasons. My crystal ball is
> in
> the shop, so was guessing on the appropriate OS here. Thus my input on
> msdos etc. and related Win 9X/ME access.
> Am glad your crystal ball is working fine.

They must be really old PCs if they can't handle XP or Windows 2000. I've
got 2K running fine on a P200 machine and Server 2K3 on a machine with a BX
chipset. But that's beside the point. If you tell someone that he is not
going to need a driver and he's running NT4, 2K, or XP, all of which _will_
need a driver, then he's going to get pretty frustrated trying to make his
board work. On the other hand if you tell him that he needs a driver and
it turns out he doesn't then at worst you end up looking stupid. My skin
is thick enough to tolerate looking stupid once in a while.

>> > Windows perceives these connected drives
>> > as pseudo-scsi at that point.
>> > There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
>> > works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you
>> > intend
>> > this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
>>
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message news:NkrBe.3192$oZ.42@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> > on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> >
> > > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> > > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> > > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> > > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> > > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> > > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> > > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> > > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> > > you choose instead of cable select.
> > >
> > > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> > > > I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> > > > without USB.
> > > >
> > > > I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> > > > swapping of drives from one machine to another.
> > > >
> > > > Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
> > > > caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
> > > > think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
> > > > drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
> > > > standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
> > > > machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
> > > > two main machines are dell and amd duron.
> > > >
> > > > At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> > > > worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> > > > the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> > > > one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> > > > upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
> > > > maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
> > > > upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
> > > > install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
> > > > installations to a minumum.
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
> > > > I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
> > > > these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
> > > > caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
> > > > drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
> > > > (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
> > > > standards in terms of installation compatibility?
> > > >
> > > > If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
> > > > What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
> > > > better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
> > > > thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
> > > > out you cannot do that.
> > > >
> > > > Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
> > > >
> > Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
> > How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
> > Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>
> Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for yourself.
> Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
> Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs are
> always seen the same way.

> No driver needed for low level dos, linux or otherwise access to these
> connected hard drives.

That applies to almost every ATA controller

> Windows sees these connected hard drives without a driver.

Only Win9x.

> A windows driver is provided for 32 bit access (faster) in windows.

You don't say.

> Windows perceives these connected drives as pseudo-scsi at that point.

Nonsense.

> There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
> works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
> this mod on.

> Don't digress to other makes and models.

The problem is in the MoBo bios when set wrong.
That isn't possible on any of the add-in controllers. They all work the same.