Blind with Anger 'at end of turn'

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Hello,

I have a question because I got into a discussion about a ruling some
unknown judge gave to a friend of mine.
My friend insisted that there was a way to play Blind with Anger
'sometimes' when the opponent's turn is 'over', so that the controlled
creature will start the next turn under your control and will remain under
your control until end of your turn. The reasoning for this was 'because
it is similar to how that Kiki-Jiki tokens thing' works. As to my
understanding of the rules there's a pretty clear difference between
'until end of turn' and 'at end of turn', so I'm pretty sure this doesn't
work with Blind with Anger, however I'm not 100% certain about that.

So here's my ideas as to how those two cards work out if played when the
opponent's turn is 'over'. Please comment on these ideas and correct them
if I'm wrong:

1) End of the second mainphase
- Blind with Anger: 'until end of turn' means the creature belongs to your
opponent again when you start your turn, as end of turn is after the
mainphase obviously.
- Kiki-Jiki: the copy has to be sacrificed at the end of turn step of your
opponent's turn again because the end of turn step is following that
mainphase.

2) End of turn step
- Blind with Anger: as to my understanding until end of turn still is
later, so the creature again is under your opponent's control in the
beginning of your turn.
- Kiki-Jiki: that's the well-known trick of waiting for eot triggers to
go on the stack, then creating the token and sacrificing it 'at end of
turn' is only possible the next time in your own turn, so the token is
alive during your own turn. [rule 313.2]

3) Cleanup step
- Blind with Anger: here is the point where it gets tricky. First
according to [314.3] the triggered abilities go on the stack and the
players get priority. So let's assume you cast Blind with Anger now. It
resolves, the creature belongs to you, the remaining triggers resolve.
However [314.3] also says that a new cleanup step begins now that the
stack is empty. That new cleanup step will end all 'until end of turn'
effects including the Blind with Anger one according to [314.2]. So the
creature belongs to your opponent yet again before the turn is over.
- Kiki-Jiki: nothing special here. should be same as for 2)

And that's ending the turn now.. or did I miss any other opportunity for
casting the spell before the turn is 'over'?
Anyways I'm just a bit curious here, as the ruling about Blind with Anger
being able to control the creature over into your turn came from a judge
at a PTQ, but I can't seem to find any way to get that done legally.

The two cards in question:

Blind with Anger
3R
Instant - Arcane
Untap target nonlegendary creature and gain control of it until end of turn. That creature
gains haste until end of turn.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2RRR
Legendary Creature - Goblin Shaman
2/2
Haste
T: Put a creature token into play that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control.
That creature token has haste. Sacrifice it at end of turn.

--
Frank
 
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Frank Raiser <frank.raiser.doesnt@like.spam.informatik.uni-ulm.de> wrote:
>I have a question because I got into a discussion about a ruling some
>unknown judge gave to a friend of mine.
>My friend insisted that there was a way to play Blind with Anger
>'sometimes' when the opponent's turn is 'over',

Stop (I'm not reading further yet). Does it say "until end of turn" or 'at
end of turn'? The former CANNOT extend past the end of a turn, ever; it's
a duration, and wears off during cleanup step, and no turn can end without
it having worn off, even one ended by Time Stop.

The latter is a triggered ability, like anything else using 'at', 'when', or
'whenever', and triggers as End phase starts, so you can do stuff past the
time in a turn when it would have triggered.

Blind With Anger has two effects that both last 'until end of turn'; both
will always have worn off by the time a turn ends, and there's no way to get
them to go 'through the start of the next turn'. Your friend is almost
certainly misremembering Waylay and the like, which have 'at end of turn'
triggered abilities, and mis-applying the answer from those to Blind With
Anger...

>so that the controlled
>creature will start the next turn under your control and will remain under
>your control until end of your turn. The reasoning for this was 'because
>it is similar to how that Kiki-Jiki tokens thing' works.

Nope. Kiki-Jiki doesn't say anything at all about an "until end of turn"
duration. It has a delayed triggered ability that triggers "at end of turn",
which is short for "at the beginning of the next End phase". If Kiki-Jiki's
ability is used DURING an End phase, the next time the delayed triggered
ability _can_ trigger is going to be the next turn's End phase. This is way
different from something that lasts "until end of turn"; you may want to
explain this to your friend.

>As to my
>understanding of the rules there's a pretty clear difference between
>'until end of turn' and 'at end of turn', so I'm pretty sure this doesn't
>work with Blind with Anger, however I'm not 100% certain about that.

Be certain; you have it right.

>1) End of the second mainphase
>- Blind with Anger: 'until end of turn' means the creature belongs to your
> opponent again when you start your turn, as end of turn is after the
> mainphase obviously.

Right. Even if you cast it during End phase, it's going to wear off during
cleanup step in that same End phase.

>- Kiki-Jiki: the copy has to be sacrificed at the end of turn step of your
> opponent's turn again because the end of turn step is following that
> mainphase.

Right.

>2) End of turn step
>- Blind with Anger: as to my understanding until end of turn still is
> later, so the creature again is under your opponent's control in the
> beginning of your turn.

Right. "until end of turn" wears off the same time as damage is removed from
all permanents, during Cleanup step; this is after you discard down to
#MAX_HAND_SIZE.

>- Kiki-Jiki: that's the well-known trick of waiting for eot triggers to
> go on the stack, then creating the token and sacrificing it 'at end of
> turn' is only possible the next time in your own turn, so the token is
> alive during your own turn. [rule 313.2]

Right, the "Waylay" trick, named after the first card which was really abused
in this manner (and which subsequently got Errata to only be castable during
Combat phase, stopping the abuse).

>3) Cleanup step
>- Blind with Anger: here is the point where it gets tricky. First
> according to [314.3] the triggered abilities go on the stack and the
> players get priority.

Careful. _If_ triggered abilities go on the stack this step, then yes, players
will get priority. But if this happens there will be -another- Cleanup step
after this one; repeat until there's a Cleanup in which nothing triggers and
nobody gains priority, and the turn can't end until after that "pristine"
Cleanup step.

> So let's assume you cast Blind with Anger now. It
> resolves, the creature belongs to you, the remaining triggers resolve.
> However [314.3] also says that a new cleanup step begins now that the
> stack is empty. That new cleanup step will end all 'until end of turn'
> effects including the Blind with Anger one according to [314.2]. So the
> creature belongs to your opponent yet again before the turn is over.

Right, exactly. Designed specifically to catch this sort of problem.

>- Kiki-Jiki: nothing special here. should be same as for 2)

Yep.

>Anyways I'm just a bit curious here, as the ruling about Blind with Anger
>being able to control the creature over into your turn came from a judge
>at a PTQ, but I can't seem to find any way to get that done legally.

You may want to send word about that decision & judge in to Wizards...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 

Maz

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you explained everything perfectly right.
------
312. End Phase

312.1. The end phase consists of two steps: end of turn and cleanup.

313. End of Turn Step

313.1. As the end of turn step begins, all abilities that trigger "at
end of turn� go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling Triggered
Abilities.�) Then the active player gets priority and players may play
spells and abilities.


313.2. If "at end of turn�-triggered abilities are created or if cards
with "at end of turn�-triggered abilities come into play after
preexisting ones have already gone on the stack at the beginning of the
end of turn step, those abilities won't go on the stack until the next
turn's end phase. In other words, the step doesn't "back up� so new "at
end of turn�-triggered abilities can go on the stack. This only applies
to triggered abilities that say "at end of turn.� It doesn't apply to
continuous effects whose durations say "until end of turn� or "this
turn.� (See rule 314, "Cleanup Step.�)
--------

=> you can use kiki-jiki to create a token after this turn's "at end of
turn" triggers have resolved, so you can keep the token until the next
turn's EOT step. The step won't back up.

------
314. Cleanup Step

314.1. If the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her
maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to
reduce the hand size to that number (this game action doesn't use the
stack).

314.2. Simultaneously, all damage is removed from permanents and all
"until end of turn� and "this turn� effects end (this game action
doesn't use the stack).

314.3. If the conditions for any state-based effects exist or if any
triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack, the active
player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities. Once the
stack is empty and both players pass, another cleanup step begins.
Otherwise, no player receives priority and the step ends.
------

=> Usually a player dosen't even get priority in the cleanup step unless
triggered abilities need to go to the stack or state based effects
have benn created during the EOT step and need to be checked.
If this happens players do have an opportunity to cast spells such as
blind with anger but then another cleanup step will be inserted in which
all "until end of turn" an "this turn" effects will be put to an end.
So threre is no way to keep a creature until next turn's cleanup step
this way !
 
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Maz <nospamMazworld@gmx.de> wrote:

Quibble:

>=> you can use kiki-jiki to create a token after this turn's "at end of
>turn" triggers have resolved, so you can keep the token until the next
>turn's EOT step. The step won't back up.

In fact, you can use Kiki-Jiki to create a token after this turn's "at end
of turn" triggers have _triggered_, same result.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 

Maz

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> => Usually a player dosen't even get priority in the cleanup step unless
> triggered abilities need to go to the stack or state based effects have
> benn created during the EOT step and need to be checked.

Sorry I meant the cleanup step of course. An example of that would be a
trigger occuring on discarding a card from your hand because you had
more than 7 (e.g. with megrim in play).
 
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On 2005-03-30, Maz <nospamMazworld@gmx.de> wrote:
> Usually a player dosen't even get priority in the cleanup step unless
> triggered abilities need to go to the stack or state based effects
> have benn created during the EOT step and need to be checked.
> If this happens players do have an opportunity to cast spells such as
> blind with anger but then another cleanup step will be inserted in which
> all "until end of turn" an "this turn" effects will be put to an end.
> So threre is no way to keep a creature until next turn's cleanup step
> this way !

If one was to follwup Blind with Anger with a Time Stop (I'm not sure where
they're getting all that mana, but anyway), would that allow them to keep the
"angered" creature during their turn? I guess I'm unclear as to what "wears
off" means.


Name Time Stop
Color Blue
Casting Cost 4UU
Type Instant
Text End the turn. (Remove all spells and abilities on the stack from the
game, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or
her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of
turn" effects end.)

thank you,
K

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In vino veritas
 
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Kevin <ktneely@no.spam.astroturfgarden.com> wrote:

> If one was to follwup Blind with Anger with a Time Stop (I'm not sure where
> they're getting all that mana, but anyway), would that allow them to keep the
> "angered" creature during their turn? I guess I'm unclear as to what "wears
> off" means.

No. The effects will end in the cleanup step, just as if Time Stop had
not been played.

509. Ending the Turn

509.1. One card (Timestop) ends the turn when it resolves. When an
effect ends the turn, follow these steps in order, as they differ from
the normal process for resolving spells and abilities (see rule 413,
"Resolving Spells and Abilities").

509.1c The current phase and/or step ends. The game skips straight to
the cleanup step. Skip any phases or steps between this phase or step
and the cleanup step.

314. Cleanup Step

314.1. If the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her
maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to
reduce the hand size to that number (this game action doesn't use the
stack).

314.2. Simultaneously, all damage is removed from permanents and all
"until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end (this game action
doesn't use the stack).

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
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Kevin <ktneely@no.spam.astroturfgarden.com> wrote:
>On 2005-03-30, Maz <nospamMazworld@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Usually a player dosen't even get priority in the cleanup step unless
>> triggered abilities need to go to the stack or state based effects
>> have benn created during the EOT step and need to be checked.
>> If this happens players do have an opportunity to cast spells such as
>> blind with anger but then another cleanup step will be inserted in which
>> all "until end of turn" an "this turn" effects will be put to an end.
>> So threre is no way to keep a creature until next turn's cleanup step
>> this way !
>
>If one was to follwup Blind with Anger with a Time Stop (I'm not sure where
>they're getting all that mana, but anyway), would that allow them to keep the
>"angered" creature during their turn? I guess I'm unclear as to what "wears
>off" means.

Blind with Anger 3R Instant - Arcane
Untap target nonlegendary creature and gain control of it until end of turn.
That creature gains haste until end of turn.

Nope. There is no way to get out of a turn, including Time Stop, with an
"until end of turn" effect still running. Time Stop does have its own
section of the rules, but those rules essentially say that once stuff has been
removed from the stack/from combat, you check for state-based effects, then
skip straight to cleanup step. Which proceeds like any other cleanup step,
including having "until end of turn" and 'this turn' effects wear off (which
means "their duration ends, and their effects stop applying").

So even Time Stop doesn't let you keep the creature past the end of the turn.
As usual, this is DIFFERENT FROM a triggered, or delayed triggered, ability
which uses the words "at end of turn".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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This was a great explanation, thank you!

K

--
In vino veritas
 

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