Bloody Romans - Neighbours From Hell (Long)

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Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Playing Civ3 on Regent, I find the Romans the most difficult civ to
handle.

They just produce military unit after military unit and keep throwing
them at you and they'll pillage everything they can if I don't block
them off. Plus their special Legionary unit is very formidable early on
in the game, at least until Chivalry.

As a result, I spend most of the time producing military units to fend
them off thus slowing down my tech development.

I used to prefer playing as the Greeks but as they always get the Romans
as next door neighbours, I now play as random civ.

In my current game I got lumbered with the Greeks and thought 'Well, if
I can't deal with the Romans on Regent there's no point going up a
level, so here goes'. Sure enough, just me and the Romans sharing a
large continent, no other civs at the time (standard map). I expanded
peacefully to the north and let the Romans strut about in the South
contrary to my normal opening strategy of kicking as much ass as I can
until I'm ready to change to monarchy. That's how much I fear these
bastards.

For some reason, I always seem to piss Caesar off early on. After
rejecting an offer of mysticism for writing, I tried opening a few deals
with him only to find he had nothing to offer that I wanted and got "I
grow tired of your games' from him, followed by some ridiculous trades
(tech for tech plus 250 gold eg) followed by outrageous demands (tech +
gold or else).

It wasn't long before Roman warriors, archers and spearmen (no legionary
yet) started creeping into my territory and declared war after my
ultimatum. Plenty of ding dong battles ensued with much saving and
reloading on my part and I had a string of hoplites in the mountains
around Corinth (the border city) to stop them breaking through. By now
legionaries were appearing and things were getting pretty fraught.

I find this really exhausting and frustrating. To its credit its troop
movements are really crafty and have to be watched carefully. It does
stack but not efficiently: if it did I think I'd have no chance.

Anyway, old Caesar seems to go psychotic. One turn he agrees to peace,
all the gold in his pot and his territory map (very useful later on).
The very same turn he declares war again following my ulimatum when he
fails to withdraw his troops. Crazy! That's the last I ever hear from
him. I develop chivalry before he does, use knights to defend for a
while and get a leader. I prefer to use leaders to help build wonders
but I'm so far behind the other civs there's no hope of that, so I build
an army of knights.

Building the army of knights prompts me to the realization that I've got
little or no chance if I just keep defending-I'll never catch up with
the other civs. So I use that army and about 10 knights to go on the
offensive, expecting to have to deal with Roman knights pretty soon. I
never do. In the end, he's reduced to spitting out the odd archer to
attack and I crush the bastards. I feel a lot better now.

It's 1500 AD, I have the whole continent to myself with about 25 cities
developing very nicely in peaceful democracy, 2 or 3 techs from the
industrial era and with a tech rate of about 5 or 6 turns per tech. I
should win it from here.

But, boy, those bloody Romans!



--
Joe Soap
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9508DEADAF62carbolic@193.38.113.46...
> Playing Civ3 on Regent, I find the Romans the most difficult civ to
> handle.
>
> They just produce military unit after military unit and keep throwing
> them at you and they'll pillage everything they can if I don't block
> them off. Plus their special Legionary unit is very formidable early on
> in the game, at least until Chivalry

Just a suggestion, try building some Horsemen and taking out his connections
to Iron, that always severely restricts the offensive units in Early Game.
It might not work, but at least you'll be doing something Offensively, and
may make him have to withdraw some troops.
Also when you capture his workers, send them off back into his Territory,
I've found the AI is almost fanatical about regaining its workers and they
can be used to distract

--
John Simpson
http://nighthawk.mine.nu/

"Quantum Physics: The dreams stuff is made of."
..
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"John Simpson" <I_am@melbourne.net.au> wrote in
news:40cdc4c6$1_3@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com:

> "Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9508DEADAF62carbolic@193.38.113.46...
>> Playing Civ3 on Regent, I find the Romans the most difficult civ to
>> handle.
>>
>> They just produce military unit after military unit and keep throwing
>> them at you and they'll pillage everything they can if I don't block
>> them off. Plus their special Legionary unit is very formidable early
>> on in the game, at least until Chivalry
>
> Just a suggestion, try building some Horsemen and taking out his
> connections to Iron, that always severely restricts the offensive
> units in Early Game. It might not work, but at least you'll be doing
> something Offensively, and may make him have to withdraw some troops.
> Also when you capture his workers, send them off back into his
> Territory, I've found the AI is almost fanatical about regaining its
> workers and they can be used to distract
>



Yes, I use horsemen early on to soften legionaries up as they usually
withdraw and survive. Then I try to finish them off with archers or
swordsmen.

Taking out his connections to iron is not so easy as it involves entering
his territory, very risky. But I agree, it's definitely worth trying.

When I say I use units to defend I mean I try to attack their units before
they attack mine but essentially all I'm trying to do is defend my
territory.

The tip about captured workers sounds useful as they're next to useless in
terms of productivity even if they are free.

Am I alone here or does anyone else agree? Playing next to the Romans is
like living next door to a gang of football hooligans.

--
Joe Soap
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:20:01 GMT, Joe Soap <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote:

>"John Simpson" <I_am@melbourne.net.au> wrote in
>news:40cdc4c6$1_3@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com:
>
>> "Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9508DEADAF62carbolic@193.38.113.46...
>>> Playing Civ3 on Regent, I find the Romans the most difficult civ to
>>> handle.
>>>
>>> They just produce military unit after military unit and keep throwing
>>> them at you and they'll pillage everything they can if I don't block
>>> them off. Plus their special Legionary unit is very formidable early
>>> on in the game, at least until Chivalry
>>
>> Just a suggestion, try building some Horsemen and taking out his
>> connections to Iron, that always severely restricts the offensive
>> units in Early Game. It might not work, but at least you'll be doing
>> something Offensively, and may make him have to withdraw some troops.
>> Also when you capture his workers, send them off back into his
>> Territory, I've found the AI is almost fanatical about regaining its
>> workers and they can be used to distract
>>
>
>Yes, I use horsemen early on to soften legionaries up as they usually
>withdraw and survive. Then I try to finish them off with archers or
>swordsmen.
>
>Taking out his connections to iron is not so easy as it involves entering
>his territory, very risky. But I agree, it's definitely worth trying.

If you are going to take them out, you need to do that.

OTOH, if you know you have Rome as a neighbor, you could try to go
after them immediately, before they get iron.

Note also, that if you change the "culturally linked start locations"
to be off, the pattern of automatic neighbors will be broken. OTOH,
the Greeks have a good defense unit, and coupled with good tactics
that can consume the Roman's offense, allowing a balance.

>When I say I use units to defend I mean I try to attack their units before
>they attack mine but essentially all I'm trying to do is defend my
>territory.
>
>The tip about captured workers sounds useful as they're next to useless in
>terms of productivity even if they are free.

They aren't useless -- you just use twice as many for any task.
Since they are free, what does it matter how many you use?

>Am I alone here or does anyone else agree? Playing next to the Romans is
>like living next door to a gang of football hooligans.

Rome is Aggression 4, not the highest (5) but pretty close. As they
have a powerful attack unit, they are likely to perceive that they
have superior power and attack, due to aggression. Only counter is to
have *lots* of units, to make you look too hard to kill.

--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9509734C0EA0carbolic@193.38.113.46...
>
> The tip about captured workers sounds useful as they're next to useless in
> terms of productivity even if they are free.
>

Are captured workers less productive than your own?
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Dennis Edward" <nospam@nowaynohow.org> writes:
>"Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
>> The tip about captured workers sounds useful as they're next to useless in
>> terms of productivity even if they are free.

>Are captured workers less productive than your own?

Half as productive as they otherwise would be (in other words, you can get
Egyptian workers -- with the Industrious civ perk -- and they would be as
productive as a non-Industrious civ's normal workers).

--
Chas Blackwell <Black Isis> CITES Systems Management Group
<cblkwell@uiuc.edu>
I don't even know what CITES stands
for, so I don't speak for them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As we were forged we shall return, perhaps some day. | VNV Nation,
I will remember you and wonder who we were." | "Further"
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Dennis Edward" <nospam@nowaynohow.org> wrote in message
news:3FDzc.759366$oR5.261176@pd7tw3no...
> "Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9509734C0EA0carbolic@193.38.113.46...
> >
> > The tip about captured workers sounds useful as they're next to useless
in
> > terms of productivity even if they are free.
> >
>
> Are captured workers less productive than your own?

In civ3 and PTW they work at 1/2 the speed of your workers.

In C3C they work 1/2 non industrial speed irrespective if you are industrial
or not.

You can team them up with one of your workers or use 3 together for the same
effect. There are instances where, let's say, a road might take 2 turns with
your worker and adding the slave won't decrease it, but a second slave will.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote in
news:6vrtc0d2g4sc303tccbusglakevb6psokv@4ax.com:

> Rome is Aggression 4, not the highest (5) but pretty close. As they
> have a powerful attack unit, they are likely to perceive that they
> have superior power and attack, due to aggression. Only counter is to
> have *lots* of units, to make you look too hard to kill.
>

Unfortunately, being preoccupied with building military units means falling
behind tech-wise. I eventually conquered Rome around 1400 AD but it wasn't
until the mid 1800s that I came close to catching up.

btw I eventually 'lost' this game as per the space race without any civ
building the Apollo Program. How is this?



--
Joe Soap
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 03:08:16 GMT, Joe Soap <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote:

>Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote in
>news:6vrtc0d2g4sc303tccbusglakevb6psokv@4ax.com:
>
>> Rome is Aggression 4, not the highest (5) but pretty close. As they
>> have a powerful attack unit, they are likely to perceive that they
>> have superior power and attack, due to aggression. Only counter is to
>> have *lots* of units, to make you look too hard to kill.
>>
>
>Unfortunately, being preoccupied with building military units means falling
>behind tech-wise. I eventually conquered Rome around 1400 AD but it wasn't
>until the mid 1800s that I came close to catching up.

That is the problem with early wars -- you need to conquer in order
to profit from the investment.

>btw I eventually 'lost' this game as per the space race without any civ
>building the Apollo Program. How is this?

How did you know they didn't build the Apollo Program? It is a
Small Wonder, not a Great one, so any civ can build it and there is no
message warning you of that fact.
--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote in
news:9mfvc09nlbva0r9h8rtbkme8mbvppfu60q@4ax.com:

> How did you know they didn't build the Apollo Program? It is a
> Small Wonder, not a Great one, so any civ can build it and there is no
> message warning you of that fact.
>

Doh! I know that now. I presumed as in Civ2 that it enabled all civs to
take part in the space race. I just ponced around waiting for another civ
to build the Apollo program meanwhile researching other techs for the fun
of it.

Anyway, I reloaded an earlier game, built the Apollo program and won
comfortably.



--
Joe Soap
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"The Stare" <wat1@not.likely.frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:tFEzc.2670$wh.650@news01.roc.ny...
>
> "Dennis Edward" <nospam@nowaynohow.org> wrote in message
> news:3FDzc.759366$oR5.261176@pd7tw3no...
> > "Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns9509734C0EA0carbolic@193.38.113.46...
> > >
> > > The tip about captured workers sounds useful as they're next to
useless
> in
> > > terms of productivity even if they are free.
> > >
> >
> > Are captured workers less productive than your own?
>
> In civ3 and PTW they work at 1/2 the speed of your workers.
>
> In C3C they work 1/2 non industrial speed irrespective if you are
industrial
> or not.
>
> You can team them up with one of your workers or use 3 together for the
same
> effect. There are instances where, let's say, a road might take 2 turns
with
> your worker and adding the slave won't decrease it, but a second slave
will.

Sheese, once again I'm amazed at the details you guys dig up. Now I know
that one is not in the Civilpedia. So, is there some fact book or something
available somewhere that lists all these obscur facts? Knowing such things
enhances the strategic play of the game...
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:46:22 -0400, "tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>
>"The Stare" <wat1@not.likely.frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>news:tFEzc.2670$wh.650@news01.roc.ny...
>>
>> "Dennis Edward" <nospam@nowaynohow.org> wrote in message
>> news:3FDzc.759366$oR5.261176@pd7tw3no...
>> > "Joe Soap" <jsoap@toilet.com> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns9509734C0EA0carbolic@193.38.113.46...
>> > >
>> > > The tip about captured workers sounds useful as they're next to
>useless
>> in
>> > > terms of productivity even if they are free.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Are captured workers less productive than your own?
>>
>> In civ3 and PTW they work at 1/2 the speed of your workers.
>>
>> In C3C they work 1/2 non industrial speed irrespective if you are
>industrial
>> or not.
>>
>> You can team them up with one of your workers or use 3 together for the
>same
>> effect. There are instances where, let's say, a road might take 2 turns
>with
>> your worker and adding the slave won't decrease it, but a second slave
>will.
>
>Sheese, once again I'm amazed at the details you guys dig up. Now I know
>that one is not in the Civilpedia. So, is there some fact book or something
>available somewhere that lists all these obscur facts? Knowing such things
>enhances the strategic play of the game...

This stuff is in the manual or someplace -- the half speed thing, or
else in a readme -- the effect of slave workers is at least.
Industrious bonus, democracy bonus, and the replaceable parts tech
bonus, are all mentioned. Exactly how they combine is not, but
fortunately, you can learn that from observations.

Now, how many workers to use, that is shown in the game. You can
check the number of turns remaining, or number of turns to do a worker
action, when you check on/assign a worker. The cumulative effect is
something easily deduced if you do that.

The principle, OTOH, is dirt simple. One worker does the job in X
turns, which means that it does 1/X of the job per turn. If you add
more workers, their work adds together. The total number of turns has
to round up, because you don't have fractions of a turn. So when you
have a project that takes 8 turns with one worker, two workers drop it
to 4 turns, three to 3 turns, four makes it two turns. But it takes
eight workers to drop it to one turn.

Slaves, with their half work rate, require twice as many to get the
same effect. One worker plus one slave equals 1.5 worker's worth, for
the 8 turn job, this means 6 turns, not four.

Industrious trait changes this, and the rules *did* change for that
with C3C. OTOH, one helpful thing to know for C3C, and they do
mention it, is that the rules *were* changed for the expansion. Once
you know that, it is a matter of digging and reading to find out where
things changed.

But in the end, you can check the time to do the job within the
game, and by that means judge whether adding more workers is worth it.
But a simple rule of thumb is to add them until turns drop to two,
then stop (if a project is a long -- 16+ turns with one worker, with
your own workers, stop adding extra workers at 4 turns). Or for that
matter, if the project isn't a rush goal, try to use only two
workers/project (the AI seems preset to use that pattern, and it is a
fairly easy way to avoid wasting worker-turns).




--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"tooly" <rdh11@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news😀iSBc.1356$vf5.429@bignews6.bellsouth.net:

>> You can team them up with one of your workers or use 3 together for
>> the
> same
>> effect. There are instances where, let's say, a road might take 2
>> turns
> with
>> your worker and adding the slave won't decrease it, but a second
>> slave
> will.
>
> Sheese, once again I'm amazed at the details you guys dig up. Now I
> know that one is not in the Civilpedia. So, is there some fact book
> or something available somewhere that lists all these obscur facts?
> Knowing such things enhances the strategic play of the game..

Really, it's the sort of thing you discover from playing the game. Books
are great, but so is experience.



--
Joe Soap
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:38:26 -0500, Jeffery S. Jones
<jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote:

> Now, how many workers to use, that is shown in the game. You can
>check the number of turns remaining, or number of turns to do a worker
>action, when you check on/assign a worker. The cumulative effect is
>something easily deduced if you do that.
>
> The principle, OTOH, is dirt simple. One worker does the job in X
>turns, which means that it does 1/X of the job per turn. If you add
>more workers, their work adds together. The total number of turns has
>to round up, because you don't have fractions of a turn. So when you
>have a project that takes 8 turns with one worker, two workers drop it
>to 4 turns, three to 3 turns, four makes it two turns. But it takes
>eight workers to drop it to one turn.
>
> Slaves, with their half work rate, require twice as many to get the
>same effect. One worker plus one slave equals 1.5 worker's worth, for
>the 8 turn job, this means 6 turns, not four.

I would like to point out that this can get confusing at times. For
instance roads on grassland which seem to require two workers in fact
can be done with one regular worker and a slave. This of course can
vary depending on whether you are a productive civ and your government
type. Nevertheless this is a good way to get more productivity out of
the slave workers.

> But in the end, you can check the time to do the job within the
>game, and by that means judge whether adding more workers is worth it.
>But a simple rule of thumb is to add them until turns drop to two,
>then stop (if a project is a long -- 16+ turns with one worker, with
>your own workers, stop adding extra workers at 4 turns). Or for that
>matter, if the project isn't a rush goal, try to use only two
>workers/project (the AI seems preset to use that pattern, and it is a
>fairly easy way to avoid wasting worker-turns).
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:50:48 -0400, "Vsyxx" <vsyxx@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>In agreement, deselect the "Culturally Linked Start Locations". And, choose
>which Civs you want and don't leave it to Random. I find some Civs
>unreasonably hostile early on and run their gold near zero just so they can
>build units. There should be a function in the game called "Chapter 11" or
>"Bankrupt". When a country is in this state they have to kowtow to those
>that assist them financially. Hey, that would be the new version,
>Capitalism CivIV.

I have never had it happen but someone said if you run a deficit you
are force to sell of improvements. I have gotten very close to this
when trasitioning governments.
 
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