Budget alternative to Ryzen 3 build (Plex Server)

[bhendin]

Short question:

Can I get a better/equivalent Plex build for $200 than a Ryzen 3 build (cpu/mobo/ram) ?
Caveat: I want to be able to boot off NVM M.2 PCI-E

History:

I was running an A8-3850 Llano build at my htpc/Plex server. I build it with the idea of casual gaming, XBMC, and Plex. In reality it is almost used exclusively for Plex at this point along with running some background tasks (external encoding tasks, light network services, file serving).

As this system was pushing 7 years old at this point I wanted a bit of an upgrade. The A8 clocks in with a Passmark score of 3469 vs the 7342 the 2200G scores, so I figure a roughly 100% increase in score was sufficient for me to do the upgrade.

Without going into too much detail I'm not really happy with some of the issues I'm seeing with this Ryzen system and am wondering (before its too late to return) if I should just scrap this and go with another build - probably Intel as at this point I think I'm off the AMD bandwagon.

Possible Solutions:

I've taken a look around and found the NAS Killer build on reddit. Obviously a lot of research was done there, but I'm not looking to build a huge system as outlined there. I already have case/PSU/drives, etc.
I could go with a smaller build using the processors they recommend - mostly LGA socket Intel.
With a single CPU like an X5650 I can score 7431 - roughly equivalent of what I get with the 2200G. With a dual system I could get upwards of 12000 score.

I paid ~$200 for my 2200G, decent mobo, and 2x4GB sticks of RAM.

For $120 I can probably get the two CPUs and RAM - but these builds are based on E-ATX systems and probably a larger PSU. By the time I add those on I'm getting close to the $200 build I already have. Plus - those systems will be much larger than what I have/want.

Finally - I got a great deal on an M.2 NVM PCI-e drive that I want to use as my boot drive (I'll never buy another system that doesn't support these blazing fast speeds!).

I'm thinking I should just deal with what I've got. Looks like I'm unlikely to get something with more than a 7500-8000 score without shelling out more than what I already paid. Plus anything I could get close (or a bit better) I'll loose NVM PCI-e (boot) support.

But - there is always the possibility I'm missing some options...which is why I'm asking here!

thanks!

 

[Snipergod87]

For native NVMe boot support on consumer chip-sets its Intel 9 series and above and AM4
Server boards I believe started with X99 which is socket 2011v3.

The dual socket board will consume alot more power and often require 2x EPS 8 pin connectors or more from a PSU to function as well.

 

[Lutfij]

Seeing how you will need DDR4-3200MHz rams for the Ryzen APU, you're not looking at 200USD, rather a little over 300USD. That figure changes when you want to change up the form factor since itx boards cost a little more than matx boards.

 

[Barty1884]

What, specifically are you not happy with on the R3 build? Without knowing, it's a little tough to advise.
For $200 or so, I can't think of much better...

As you know, the X5650 build isn't going to support native NVMe booting - you could probably find a BIOS mod that'll allow it.... but the gains (vs the hassle + adapter etc), doesn't really strike me as viable

 

[bhendin]

For native NVMe boot support on consumer chip-sets its Intel 9 series and above and AM4
Server boards I believe started with X99 which is socket 2011v3.

The dual socket board will consume alot more power and often require 2x EPS 8 pin connectors or more from a PSU to function as well.

Yeah, I'm concerned about the power/size of a larger build for this particular purpose.
Pretty sure that the 2200G is about the cheapest I can go with AM4.
What is the cheapest Intel 9 series CPU currently available and do they offer them with internal graphics?
Even a lower end video card will probably bump the price up $50.

 

[bhendin]

Seeing how you will need DDR4-3200MHz rams for the Ryzen APU, you're not looking at 200USD, rather a little over 300USD. That figure changes when you want to change up the form factor since itx boards cost a little more than matx boards.

As I wrote I already have the components for the Ryzen build. And it did cost me only $200 including cpu/mobo/8GB DDR4-3000 ram (the 2200G btw is only rated to support speeds up to 2933 - and 2600 is considered the sweet spot).

So when comparing cost the $200 is where I'm at to keep the components I have vs turning them in for something else...

 

[bhendin]

What, specifically are you not happy with on the R3 build? Without knowing, it's a little tough to advise.
For $200 or so, I can't think of much better...

As you know, the X5650 build isn't going to support native NVMe booting - you could probably find a BIOS mod that'll allow it.... but the gains (vs the hassle + adapter etc), doesn't really strike me as viable

Yeah - at this point more hassle for even equivalent may not even be worth it. I think I'd have to see scores closer to 9000 for an equivalent price point to even deal with sending everything back and building again.

Without going into too much detail, my issues with the Ryzen 3 2200G:
1) RAM support of only 2133 native. Technically anything over 2133 is considered an OC, yet it seems everyone (even AMD) recommends RAM running at at least 2166. This means OC - even if you can just switch an XMP profile. I'm finding that even trying to run RAM rated at higher speeds is not always yielding stable results. Note this issue seems to be more problematic with the 2200G than other Ryzen chips. For instance I had one set of G.SKILL rated at 2666 that would not boot above 2400 when the Vega GPU drivers initialized (worked fine with basic MS drivers). Required tweaks to timing, etc, and I'm still not convinced it is stable.
2) I'm having video "noise" issues when the display goes into standby. This may be an incompatibility with the monitors I'm using, but really simple things like this should not be happening even with the cheapest of processors.
Sure - the Ryzen w/GPU are faster chips than the Llano generations - but they are a step backward in almost every other regard.

Anyway, don't want to really let this devolve into solving these issues here - was seeing if I could find another alternative or just live with this for $200 and forget the hassle.

 

[Barty1884]

To address the specific issues.
1. Anything >JEDEC standard is technically an overclock, whether XMP or manual. The official native support of any platform is merely a starting point.
Verifying the QVL for a given motherboard will identify which memory will work at their rated speeds. Anything beyond that (memory not on the QVL etc) is a crapshoot at best.

2. No sure where it's a step back at all, realistically. Substantially improved IPC and GPU.... Video "noise" you'll need to define what you mean there?


At $200, I'd be very skeptical that you could even match the performance.... let alone better it.

 

[bhendin]

To address the specific issues.
1. Anything >JEDEC standard is technically an overclock, whether XMP or manual. The official native support of any platform is merely a starting point.
Verifying the QVL for a given motherboard will identify which memory will work at their rated speeds. Anything beyond that (memory not on the QVL etc) is a crapshoot at best.

2. No sure where it's a step back at all, realistically. Substantially improved IPC and GPU.... Video "noise" you'll need to define what you mean there?


At $200, I'd be very skeptical that you could even match the performance.... let alone better it.

Well the QVLs are a joke and full of errors. I'm coming from ASRock here, but from what I can see by looking around the web is littered with people having similar issues. I realize the point of QVLs, but really if the tolerances of these things are so tight then something is wrong. I did consult QVLs when building this rig and asked questions since much of the RAM was either not available or out of price point. It doesn't help when they rate 1x16GB module as working when what you want is 2x8 to run dual-channel, etc. And, as mentioned when everyone is saying 2600+ is really necessary to get the performance out of these...
Seems to me the Ryzen is much more centered at OC enthusiasts where the Llano was much more put forth for the HTPC-enthusiast.

Still, I believe at the price point you are right about matching performance - especially while not moving to a server-board dual CPU solution. Those builds are impressive power at that price - though you are probably spending another $50 a year just on power consumption and additional cooling for your house!

As far as the noise issue - what happens is I get colorful "static" very similar to an untuned TV station (but more "digital"). This occurs most often when the display comes out of sleep mode. Though in some cases (while doing all my burn-in) I have come back to see the screen in this state instead of a blank screen (since the display should have been asleep). When it happens out of sleep I have to either unplug or powercycle the monitor (or sometimes let it just go back to sleep again and will be ok the next wake up). If I go in and find it static when it was supposed to be sleep I just hit the space bar to resume and it wakes up normally. This issue persists with 2 different 2200G, 2 entirely different sets of RAM, and 2 motherboards (same ASRock AB350 Pro4 models). Monitor works fine with other systems (including the Llano). Found one other mention of the issue on the AMD forums, but no responses or help anywhere.
Some have mentioned that the GPU may have issues with screens with lower refresh rates and this is an older monitor. Even so to have this issue in the first place is just one bad check in my book. I couldn't get it to negotiate over the HDMI of my Onkyo receiver either (where my Llano was hooked up fine), and have to plug it directly into my TV HDMI.
This is fine as long as I continue to just use it for Plex - but if I ever want to use Kodi again, or do casual TV gaming I lose out on ARC through my receiver.

 

[Snipergod87]

Any 4th gen CPU (which is compatible with 9 series boards) have integrated graphics, and use cheaper DDR3 RAM.
Only downside is the M.2 slots may be half bandwidth (max of 2GB/s) compared to newer slots.

 

[bhendin]

Any 4th gen CPU (which is compatible with 9 series boards) have integrated graphics, and use cheaper DDR3 RAM.
Only downside is the M.2 slots may be half bandwidth (max of 2GB/s) compared to newer slots.

Thanks. Totally not been following Intel chips for a while now...but we would be talking something like a i5-4460 as a 4th generation? That would be roughly equivalent Passmark scores, but at a higher price point even than retail 2200G.

What should I be looking for in regards to a "9-series" board. Using that term in google searches isn't finding much...perhaps that is because they are already 5 years old? Would the M.2 speed be dependent on the board? Avenue worth investigating is I could find a board with full 4x pci-e. However I think based on the choices the total cost is still likely to be 50% more.

 

[Barty1884]

M.2 (where available) on a 9 series board (Z97, H97) is limited to Gen3 x2 (or x4 Gen2, same thing) at a chipset level.
Even then, there's very few with an on-board M.2 slot. ASUS have a couple (Z97i-plus and one of the Maximus boards IIRC)..... Most Gigabyte, MSI etc don't have one - although it is model specific.

You could use M.2 adapters to get the full x4 Gen3. - but they're fairly hard to come by and would drive the price up.
Something like this: https://www.asus.com/ca-en/Motherboard-Accessory/HYPER_M2_X4_MINI_CARD/

 

[Snipergod87]

Well 4th gen is quite old, you could get used parts at a pretty good price on sites like ebay, coming across a motherboard will be harder, but you could use a M.2 to PCI-E adapter, you can find non fancy ones for under $20 last i checked.
9 series board refers to Z97, H97

But it does seem that a 4460 is roughly price equivalent to a R3 2200g, but the R3 2200G has an upgrade path, while the 4460 does not.
Only advantage to the 4th gen haswell platform is the cheap DDR3 RAM esp compared to DDR4

 

[bhendin]

M.2 (where available) on a 9 series board (Z97, H97) is limited to Gen3 x2 (or x4 Gen2, same thing) at a chipset level.
Even then, there's very few with an on-board M.2 slot. ASUS have a couple (Z97i-plus and one of the Maximus boards IIRC)..... Most Gigabyte, MSI etc don't have one - although it is model specific.

You could use M.2 adapters to get the full x4 Gen3. - but they're fairly hard to come by and would drive the price up.
Something like this: https://www.asus.com/ca-en/Motherboard-Accessory/HYPER_M2_X4_MINI_CARD/

Ok - thanks for that info. I doubt that those M.2 adapters would support boot devices though and even if so limiting the drive to half speeds is kind of a downer.

My M.O. is to usually do a $600-800 build every 6 years or so (some reused components) with mid-grade components and then to move all that down the chain on my working systems with a < $100 upgrade (used parts: more RAM, maybe better class CPU same socket) to breathe some more life into it. I couldn't really justify more than $2-300 for a new build right now since everything I had *worked* I was just sick of seeing 98-100% CPU utilization during Plex transcodes .

Had I paid full price for all the Ryzen build components it would have been at least at the $250 mark. As I came out nearer the $200 with sales/rebates, it is hard to complain. I just hope that 3 years down the line overall support for these processors, driver stability, etc is going to improve instead of get worse for if/when I need to re-purpose this machine.

Alas, it looks like my initial thought about another alternative at this price/performance point while maintaining M.2 PCI-e boot is not worth the time/trouble even with the hassles I'm having.

I appreciate all the good and prompt feedback!

 

[Barty1884]

The M.2 adapters will support booting IF the BIOS allows it (and 9 series boards all should). I use one on the spec in my signature (Z97X-UD7)

You've hit the nail on the head though, between hassle & cost, the 2200G is most likely the "best" you having the features you want.