Building from secondhand parts

xblaauw

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Dec 7, 2009
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Dear reader,


Thank you for taking the time to consider my questions. Last night i ran into a series of videos on youtube called scrapheap challenge on linus tech tips channel, and it opened my eyes a bit. 4,5 years ago i built a PC for 1130 euro that ran like what was at the time considered a 1300 euro machine when bought from a pc builder.

I was pretty happy with myself and the help i get from the good people on tom's hardware, right up untill last night. Today i watched episode 2 and 3 and they basically built a modern gaming rig worth 800 euro for 300.

Today i am a student in my second year, and like so many other students, i find myself short on money, ALL THE TIME. However, computers and gaming are still passions of mine. So here are some questions to start this topic off:

Does anyone have any experience with the LGA771 server boards that can house 2 LGA771 quadcore Xeon processors? You can get 2 xeon's @ 3ghz, a mobo and a stupid amount of RAM for under 200 euro on ebay very easily today, but i'm wondering about compatibility with a number of things, to name a few: Windows, Power supplies, Graphics cards etc etc.

A second question one might ask themselves about these deals is how long will this hardware continue on working? If anyone can come up with anything that resembles an estimate, it would be greatly appreciated.

Third, how easy is it to break a cpu / gpu through overclocking experiments? If i where to go the way of a second hand q6600 for example, can it just stop working before it hits 90 degrees celcius for example? What do i watch out for, specifically regarding second hand parts?

What parts should i buy new even though there may be deals to be had on the internet? a power supply? GPU? HDD?

Anyone here willing to share their experience with regards to purchasing / using second hand parts will be loved :)

P.S. This is not my first build, nor my first time overclocking, however it would be the first time using second hand parts, especially if the server parts turn out to be a good idea.
 
Those videos should be taken with a grain (bucket) of salt. While they may seem impressive it is usually impossible to find parts that cheap, even used, and especially ones that work.
I recommend against buying used, for two main reasons. You dont know how the component was treated, and you (most of the time) do not get a warranty.
If its your buddy from down the street who just upgraded, thats different.

On the topic of the Xeons, they will not perform as well as you would like by todays standards. It would be better to get a newer, single processor.

The longevity is anyones guess. If it was treated well it could last years, but it could fail in a few weeks (or might have already, see: Bitcoin mining on AMD r9 cards)

Its fairly hard to break something by OCing, most components will shut down to save themselves.
 
Thank you for responding, and so fast :O!


However, don't you feel like i could let 4 parts fail before i end up spending the money a new part will cost me? I agree that the video's don't necessarily represent reality, at all... However, assuming they take place in reality, their time limit was not more than 3 days, i can spend 2 months collecting the parts if i want to :) So i think, outside of the risk of parts being broken after a week i should be able to come up with a way to get close to their results right?

Between writing the post and now responding to you i did some more reading and came across this:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1431723/mod-lga775-support-for-lga771-xeon-cpus

They use a sticker, which when put on a 771 CPU correctly should make a 775 mobo post and function propperly. One problem i found with 775 mobo's on the cheap side is they don't seem to have support for more then 4GB of RAM, so that's a bit of a problem, one that server mobos doesn't share.

I'm not saying i want to equal todays newest i7 CPU's in performance, but something comperable to an i5 of 2 years ago should be managable right? As a guideline, this summer i'll be able to muster up at most 400 euro for my new pc (I'm using an old laptop at the moment, so your mom's fridge would be an upgrade at this point) I don't need the pc to run for very long, i mainly need it to hold out (maybe with a change of CPU if one breaks) for 2-3 years. And i need it mainly to run games like Fallout 4 (i don't need max settings max anti aliassing etc, i just want it to run at 1080p and shit at medium), World of warcraft (same graphics req as fallout), League, some rocketleague, games like that. My estimate was that a 3.4ghz 12mb cache quadcore with 8gb of RAM and some sort of decent GPU would be able to do this. Right? Again, if you feel differently, please tell me :) I'm just making sure i communicate my purpose clearly :)

Edit: i also don't need it to be very reliable, i have the laptop and work in the cloud. In case it fails, i will always be able to finish my uni and work projects.
2e Edit: posted the wrong link
 
I mean it all comes down to how good the prices are, and personal preference.
I dont trust anything used (mostly) but there are situations where deals are too good to pass up. Personally (first year college student) I cant afford to replace any components of my system if they were to fail, so last time I had money I bought quality new hardware. (IE Samsung SSD, EVGA PSU, etc). In doing so, I probably wont upgrade my system while im still in school (summer maybe)...
 



xblaauw,

The best cost to performance ratio for used computer parts is to buy a complete system and upgrade it. Buying every part individually can be more costly and going too far into the world of obsolete part can spend the same money for less performance. In every case I look at, the price of the top performance CPU is always disproportionately high and will cost more than the next generation third-level CPU of the same performance.

After a lot of research, using mostly Passmark benchmarks for comparison, it seems the best choice for having high performance systems with obsolete parts is LGA1366.

My current project is a standby, backup system. My game was to build the best perofrmance system, using some parts: GPU, HD, RAID controller that were left after upgrading a dual Xeon system for rendering and multi-threading simulation and calculation applications:

Purchased for $53 + $$24 shipping:

Precision T3500 (2009) (Original) Xeon W3530 2.8 /3.06GHz > 4GB (2X 2GB) DDR3-1333 ECC > 9800 GT > WD Black 500GB
[[Passmark system rating = 1963 / CPU = 4482 / 2D= 609 / 3D=805 / Mem= 1409 / Disk=1048]]


The W3530 is 4-cores @ 2.8 /3.06GHz and much better than I expected. When I enabled hyperthreading on the T3500 the CPU score became 5578. Here is the cheapest W3530 currently (1.21.16) on ebahh:

Intel Xeon W3530 2.80GHz 8MB 4.8GT/s SLBKR Quad-Core LGA1366 CPU > $9.95
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Xeon-W3530-2-80GHz-8MB-4-8GT-s-SLBKR-Quad-Core-LGA1366-CPU-/271538655947?hash=item3f38f712cb:g:APkAAOSwo6lWQjOx

For comparison the Core2 Quad Q6600 is 2.4GHz- with no turbo speed and no hyperthreading- and the average Passmark CPU score is 2988

The cheapest Q6600 on Ebahhhh:

Intel Core 2 Q6600 Kentsfield Quad-Core 2.4GHz 3.3GHz Turbo Boost LGA 775 8M > sold for $10.00 (12.29.15)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Core-2-Quad-Q6600-CPU-SLACR-2-4-GHz-8M-1066-/262215244967?hash=item3d0d3f1ca7:g:VxAAAOSwYHxWKmE7

And this demonstrates that going too many generations backwards does not have a cost advantage.

After some research I decided the Xeon X5677 3.47/3.73GHz had the best cost /performance.

CPU: $60
RAM: $43
GPU, HD's : left over from other upgrades
______________

System + new parts TOTAL = $185

Results:

Dell Precision T3500 (2011) (Revision 2) Xeon X5677 3.47 /3.73GHz > 12GB (6X 2GB) DDR3-1333 ECC > Quadro 4000 > PERC 6/i +Seagate ST3300657SS + WD Black 500GB > 626W PSU> Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
[Passmark system rating = 2751, CPU = 7236 / 2D= 658 / 3D=2020 / Mem= 1875 / Disk=1221]

The Precision T3500 can use a variety of 6-core CPU's up to the W3690 6-core @ 3.47 /3.73GHz and 24GB RAM. and that is an economical alternative as more could be spent on the SSD and very good GPU.

This was the dual Xeon project:

A Dell Precision T5500 purchased for $190 including shipping:

Dell Precision T5500 (2011) (Original): Xeon E5620 quad core @ 2.4 / 2.6 GHz > 6GB DDR3 ECC Reg 1333 > Quadro FX 580 (512MB) > Dell PERC 6/i SAS /SATA controller > Seagate Cheetah 15K 146GB > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
[ Passmark system rating = 1479 / CPU = 4067 / 2D= 520 / 3D= 311 / Mem= 1473 / Disk= 1208]

CPU's: $230 and $170 > (The price dropped between the first and second purchases)
CPU riser board: $70
48GB RAM: $180
GPU: $230
RAID controller: $60
Drives: leftover from other upgrades
_________________

TOTAL= $940 Value of drives about $120 = $1060 If I bought a new computer with 2X 6-core Xeons at 3.3/ 3.5GHz , 48GB RAM and a quite good 4GB Quadro, I would guess it could cost well over $8,000.

Results:

Dell Precision T5500 (2011)(Revised) > 2X Xeon X5680 six -core @ 3.33 / 3.6GHz, 48GB DDR3 ECC 1333 > Quadro K2200 (4GB ) > PERC H310 / Samsung 840 250GB / WD RE4 Enterprise 1TB > M-Audio 192 sound card > 875W PSU > Windows 7 Professional 64> HP 2711x (1920 X 1080)
[ Passmark system rating = 3844 / CPU = 15047 / 2D= 662 / 3D= 3505 / Mem= 1785 / Disk= 2649] (12.30.15)

And there is a system with 12 cores /24 threads. This system was upgraded to run one one core and the second added later plus 24GB more RAM. The PERC H310 controller changes the disk system from 3GB/s to 6Gb/s. The CPU rating is the second highest of all 725 T5500's tested. Renderings are very, very fast!

Dell Precision workstations are built like servers and ultra-reliable. I've had five used ones and over seven years, none of them ever failed or lost data.

I've found this approach a better alternative to researching, ordering, assembling, configuring, and troubleshooting a system selecting every part, though the upgrading method does take time and effort plus patient shopping for good prices. With a more or less complete used system, it's possible to plug in the graphics card and load applications you can using it a few hours after opening the box. And the system is of higher performance- the 6-cores and designed for reliability.

Sorry for such a long post.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

1. HP z420 (2015) > Xeon E5-1660 v2 six-core @ 3.7 / 4.0GHz > 32GB DDR3 ECC 1866 RAM > Quadro K4200 (4GB) > Intel 730 480GB (9SSDSC2BP480G4R5) > Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > 600W PSU> Logitech z2300 > 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H (2560 X 1440) > Windows 7 Professional 64 >
[ Passmark Rating = 5064 > CPU= 13989 / 2D= 819 / 3D= 4596 / Mem= 2772 / Disk= 4555] [Cinebench R15 > CPU = 1014 OpenGL= 126.59 FPS] 7.8.15
 
Allright, probably the best answer i didn't even think to hope for :)Where to begin with my reply? Probably by trying to summarize your awesome answer a bit.

So, you compared individual parts and figured out that the Xeon processors have big bang for their buck if you use the LGA1366 slot and something similar to Xeon X5677 when compared to a traditional q6600 or q6700 quadcore from a few days back. My understanding of the choise for 1366 over 771 is that its newer, therefore allows for ddr3, and more of it.

Then you continue and state that you can get more value by purchasing a "complete" system made by for example DELL that will give you a case, a psu, mobo a cpu and RAM for a few hundred euro's and upgrading it with individual parts as needed. So for example, one could add 24GB of extra RAM, why not 😀

I read this last night, didn't understand it, read it again this morning and thought about it for a bit and a few new questions popped up in my head.

"Dell Precision T3500 (2011) (Revision 2) Xeon X5677 3.47 /3.73GHz > 12GB (6X 2GB) DDR3-1333 ECC > Quadro 4000 > PERC 6/i +Seagate ST3300657SS + WD Black 500GB > 626W PSU> Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
[Passmark system rating = 2751, CPU = 7236 / 2D= 658 / 3D=2020 / Mem= 1875 / Disk=1221]"

Was this system 185 dollar? I assume that is excluding GPU, HDD and Raid controller?

My system from a few years back, which is sitting at my steph brothers house since a few years has an i5 2500k with no oc, when i go to passmark's website and look up that model it scores around ~6500-7000, that pc, in my opinion is still fast enough to do anything i want. So the Xeon x5677 or 1/2 model(s) lower should do the trick then right?

Can you tell me anything about overclockability? Or should i forget about that with systems like this?

When i look up the 'economical alternative', the w3690 i get very incomplete computers with a pricetag of 1200 dollar. Bad timing? Or maybe a typo on your end? something else? This does not look like an 'economical alternative to me'.

The 'T3500' and "T5500" stands for the make and model of the mobo right? When i google it i find this:

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/precn/en/q2wk6_dell_precision_t3500_spec_sheet.pdf

In the spec sheet it states: "Support for 2 PCI Express® x16 Gen 2 graphics cards up to 150W. 2 to 8 monitor configurations depending on card(s) chosen" And then i lists a bunch (not many) industry style graphics cards that can be put into this system. Are those the only cards that will work? Can't i just get myself a nice 7770 or r7 260x for about 80 euros and call it a day? Power is probably a non issue since those cards use external power anyway.

After about 45 min trying to find a Dell precision ... workstation with a desirable CPU i concluded that these don't exist, and so i would have to buy a very cheap Dell precision t3500 and something like the x5677 seperately as well as a bunch of RAM seperately. The spec sheet for the t3500 does state its compatibility with up to 256GB of SSD (Which is nice and fine because i happen to own one of those).

So in order to basically compete in the scrapheap challenge for myself through ebay and with unlimited time id end up buying:

a t3500 with a HDD, a PSU, a shitty CPU and very little RAM. = 200 euro (inc delivery, i live in the netherlands)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Precision-T3500-Desktop-Xeon-2-53GHz-W3505-4GB-DDR3-80GB-DVD-RW-WIN7-COA-/121867652811?hash=item1c5fe0cecb:g😛GIAAOSwlV9WTBT2
something like this? - Edit: i can't get it to display the link propperly, but its there, just click the white space :)

16GB of DDR3 (ECC or no ECC) (Or does it need to be devisable by 3? for 3 channel memory? like your 24gb) ~80 euro?
a Xeon x5670 - x5677, best one available in the span of 2 months for <65 euro
R7 260x ~80 euro
SSD, got it already
CPU cooler?

Something like 450 euro all together? Seems to look very plausible to me. Esp if it turns out that these Chips are overclockable.

One thing that does bug me a little bit is that i end up paying well over 100 in delivery costs, most of which comes from the t3500, which i will strip down as soon as it arrives and probably end up replacing the case aswell. Which is what's causing most of the transport costs, assuming its made of steel and not aluminium (not to mention much much larger then the mobo inside).

However typing this, i feel like i might have missed a few points you where trying to make in your reply, so if that's the case. Please educate me further :)
 
xblaauw,

I think that you have understood the idea very well:

1. The LGA1366 series using DDR3 and now being fully depreciated have the best performance for the cost of any CPU. The hyperthreading +1.3GHz higher clock speed, and ability to use DDR3 RAM of the X5677 and which equals a CPU score of 3X- at cost of only about $20 more than the Q6600.

2. It is much less expensive to buy a high quality, high performance used workstation (they have bigger power supplies and 2X GPU slots ) than to build from separate parts.

3. When buying a used workstation, it is much less expensive to buy a system with low specification and upgrade it. When the CPU is a fst one- especllly the fastest, the price can double.

The T3500 project was more or less the same idea as the scrapheap challenge- fastest system for the least cost. The total expenditure for the system, shipping, CPU, and RAM was indeed about $185. The Quadro 4000 ,RAID controller, and the hard drives were left over from upgrading the T5500. A used Quadro 4000 is worth about $130-150 in the US, a PERC 6/i controller can be bought for about $15, and the used Seagate 15K SAS is worth about $30. If I take the total of $185 and add the value of the used parts, the real cost is about $185 + $180 = about $370. However, I can sell the W3530 processor and the GT 9800 GPU that came with the T3500 for about $25-$30 each so the system cost was actually about $325 - about EUR 300 or so.

As it happens, I decided when doing the T3500 project that I would document the process. Here is the section on CPU's for the T3500:

LGA1366 CPU’s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Xeon_microprocessors

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php

http://ark.intel.com/products

4-Core: Passmark CPU Average Ebay_12.13.15

_W-3500 series / 45nm / 8MB cache / 130W / 24GB > 800,1066 / HT

I. W3520
II. W3530 2.8 / 3.06GHz _5372 [5587 actual] _$11 > $65
III. W3540 2.93 / 3.2 _5492
IV. W3550 3.06 / 3.33 _5761
V. W3565 3.2 / 3.46 _6083
VI. W3570 3.2 / 3.46 _6261 _$25 > $50
VII. W3580 3.33 / 3.6 _6586 _$50 > $95

_X-5500 series (8MB cache / 45nm / 95W_ 2009)

I. X5550 2.67 / 3.06 _5422
II. X5560 2.8 / 3.2 _5442
III. X5570 2.93 / 3/33 _5638 _$14 > $45
IV. X5590 3.33 / 3.6 _9216 _$37 >

_W-5500 series (8MB cache / 45nm / 95W_ 2009)

I. W5580 3.2 / 3.46 (130W) _5718 _$21 > $50
II. W5590 3.33 / 3.6 _6314 _$32 > $200

_X-5600 series 32nm/ 8MB/ 95W_ 2011)

I. X5647 2.93 / 3.2 _5996
II. X5667 3.07 / 3.46 _4655 _$16 > $40
III. X5672 3.2 / 3.6 _5148 _$45 > $87
IV. X5677 3.46 / 3.73 (130W)_7046 _$33 > $80
V. X5687 3.6 / 3.86 _7217 _$70 > $130

6-Core

_X-5600 series 32nm / 12MB / 95W_2011)

I. X5660 2.87 / 3.2 _7587 _$68 > [$100] > $180
II. X5675 3.07 / 3.46 _8584 _$78 > [$112] > $215
III. X5680 3.33 / 3.6 (130W) _9011 _$113> [$140] > $274
IV. X5690 3.47 / 3.73 (2011) _9216 _$182 >[$220] > $291

_W-3600 series / 32nm / 12MB / 130W > 24GB >

I. W3670 3.2 / 3.46 (1066) _6261 _$90 > $160
II. W3680 3.33 / 3.6 (1333) _9398 _$140 > $208
III. W3690 3.47 / 3.73 _9703 _$160 > $400


______________________________

CPU Contenders:

Average Average Points per $

I. W3530 2.8 / 3.06GHz _5587 (Actual) _$11 >[$38] $65 _147 Average Points per $
II. X5687 3.6 / 3.86 _7217 = +29% _$70 >[$100] $130 _72
III. W3680 3.33 / 3.6 (1333) _9398 _$140>[$175] $208 _54
IV. W3570 3.2 / 3.46 _6261 = +12% _$25 >[$38] $50 _42
V. X5677 3.46 / 3.73 (130W)_7046 = +26% _$33 >[$55] $80 _27
VI. W3580 3.33 / 3.6 _6586 = +18% _$50 >[$73] $95 _23


CPU Contenders: Top Passmark CPU ratings in Precision T3500

I. W3570 3.2 / 3.46 _(13) _6830 = +22% _$25 > $50 _45.5
II. W3580 3.33 / 3.6 _(5) _6502 = +16% _$50 > $95 _22.4
III. X5677 3.46 / 3.73_(6) _7314 = +30% _$33 > $80 _32.3
IV. X5687 3.6 / 3.86 _(2) _7610 = +36% _$70 > $130 _76
V. W3680 3.33 / 3.6 (1333) _9458 = +69% _$140 > $208 _54.3

Expected Performance

I. Rating: 2900+
II. CPU: 6100
III. 2D: 600
IV. 3D: 1800
V. Mem 1600
VI. Disk: 900 mech’l, 2100 SSD
____________________________________

CPU Analysis


I. The CPU’s with the best average cost /performance in the T3500 are:

A. W3530
B. X5687
C. W3680
D. W3570
E. X5677
F. W3580

II. Given:

A. The original CPU has by far the best cost /performance
1. T3500 / Quadro 4000 with a W3530 is the 11th highest rated: 2918 / 5299 / 605 / 2592 / 1676 / 2677 (Kingston HyperX 3K 240GB)
B. Consider the balance of the original total system cost of $78
1. expected level of performance
C. The additional expenditures of RAM. GPU, and Disk(s)
D. To make the CPU upgrade worthwhile, the performance should increase a a minimum of +20% above the average score for the W3530 of 5372 which = 6446
1. The X5677 is the minimum upgrade of more than 20%
E. The Price are higher in November / December
F. The sales price of systems with higher specification CPU’s, especially 6-core are disproportionately more valuable = better choice if resale is considered.
G. Performance differences are obvious but consider proportionality to use. With the HP z420 4GHz 6-core K4200 and Precision T5500 dual X5680 K2200 systems available
H. The X5600 -series are 32nm and have very good performance
I. Consider the price of replacing all the RAM with 1333 in the upgrade- 12GB = about $65
J. Experientially, the GPU 3D score + SSD probably will make more of a difference than the CPU

III. Best Choices:

A. = W3570 if purchased immediately
B. = X5687 if purchased timed for lowest prices (about $70): August /Sept
C. = X5677 if purchased at median price (about $60) or below

_____________________________________

This demonstrates the complication of making these choices as one needs to know the possible choices, the performance, and the costs.

For your project, yes, you'll look for a low specification T3500, but sometimes you'll see a situation where the CPU is a good one and the cost of a low-end plus CPU is more than that particular system.

the T3500 in you link seems expensive to me- somtimes I see a T5500 or even T7500 (those can use dual Xeons) for that price. Also, it's not necessary to ship form the U.S. The largest source for T3500's in the EU is Ebay.de and the transport will be the least. The prices are much lower in the US, but the $ is very strong against the EUR at the moment and shipping will be more than the computer cost.

Dell Precision T3500
Gebraucht
Beendet:
14. Dez. 2015 09:34:20 MEZ
Erfolgreiches Gebot:[ b]EUR 74,00[/b]

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Dell-Precision-T3500-/231776650081?hash=item35f6f70361%3Ag%3AZFUAAOSw7FRWZUMo&nma=true&si=SlLMskbzBw1hFQHm3uLxrAW91c0%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

That one includes a W3505 , 2GB of RAM, and a Quadro GPU.

These systems have 6 RAM slots in triple channel and the best memory performance is to use three modules of the identical RAM. My system had 2X 2GB of 1333 ECC. Some LGA1366 CPUs use 1066 and the others 1333 and you can use non-ecc which is cheaper. The most economical may be to find 3X 4GB of 1333 non-ecc. On Passmark benchmarks the highest rated systems had either 12GB or 24GB of RAM.

In the above CPU analysis, you can see general cost /performance so the key is to choose. A lot of this will be luck as you may find a fast 6-core- the W3680 or W3690 cheaply and I missed a couple of low cost X5687's which are 4-core @3.6 /3.83GHz- among the highest clock speed Xeons.

You mention replacing the case, but keep in mind these are very high quality- and quiet- cases, plus that will have an unnecessary cost. You might paint the case. The T3500 has a heavy cast bezel front - a bit old-fashioned looking and I thought of painting this satin black to modernize it , but it could bright red or blue etc.

For the GPU, I think one of the best cost/performance choices is going to be a GTX 650ti, GTX 660, GTX 750 , or GTX 750ti. I had considered a GTX for my T3500 but I use Autodesk 2D and 3D CAD plus Solidworks which really require a Quadro or Firepro. Or, as you mention, the AMD cards can be better value- I don't know the R9 series though to make a recommendation.

Cheers,

BambiBoom
 
You sir, are my new personal hero! What can i do to help you get some internet points on toms hardware? I'm serious, i think i love you!
 


xblaauw,

You're very generous to say so. I enjoy these kinds of problems and use it as practice to improve my technical writing.

If you would like to choose one of the answers as the "best solution", that does equal points on Tom's.

I meant to mention earlier that while the best value for the T3500 probably will be DE where there seem to be so many, or possibly Italy- quite a few also, or the UK, if the seller will send it, the CPU will probably be quite a bit cheaper on Ebay US and the shipping a small item is not expensive.

Let me know how your project progresses.

Cheers,

BambiBoom


 
For the life of me, i cannot figure out how to vote best answer, i searched for about 15 min, concluded i couldn't find it, so went to google, found this thread:

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/34244-12-select-answer

But when i click "update this" in the bottom right, i don't get any tabs on top of the editing area, (or anywhere for that matter). So i tried this post:

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-1875382/select-answer.html

Still, no luck... I'm terribly sorry but i'm going to have to ask you to help me help you 😛 (Yes i am aware of the irony).

OT: I will be posting to this thread again once i collect the money for the parts and have time to sit around at home and wait for them to arrive / build & troubleshoot the pc. This might take a couple months, it might not, i have no idea :) (It will happen this year, and ill be damned if its after the end of august!)

I also thought about using your knowledge to make some money by purchasing these parts, assembling them, troubleshooting the rig and reselling it as a second hand product worth way more then the sum of its parts. (So somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-700 euro to people who are not at all tech savvie, (informing them that, if anything breaks, parts are cheap and so is my time 😛)

Or maybe you can think of a way that exceptionally cheap pc hardware can end up making a poor student some money, since selling high end pc's to scrubs is very difficult because of the size of the price tag 🙁 (i mean, its cheap, but its still 600 euro)
 


xblaauw,

I appreciate your effort to select a post as best solution. This morning I notice I received a best solution vote on another post. However, none of the posts I've seen today have the usual phrase along the bottom, "Select as Best Answer" I think it says. Perhaps that system is temporarily not working.

I'd thought over time whether it would be possible to make money doing this kind of upgrading. there are Ebahhh sellers that do this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Precision-T7500-2-x-3-33GHz-Six-Core-192GB-12TB-Win-7-1-Year-Warranty-/290689367563?hash=item43ae6fbe0b:g:5rsAAOxyVaBS6Adn

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Precision-T5500-2x-3-46GHz-6C-X5690-72GB-2x-750GB-HDD-Win7-w-CD-Quadro-4000-/381524464247?hash=item58d4a15277:g:NG8AAOSw3KFWdD13

"Aventis" has listings for 2,942 systems and "PCServer&Parts" lists 16,180 systems!

I believe that they have only a tiny proprtion is these systems actually in their warehouse. They may have 50 and then piles of CPU's, RAM, GPU's and etc. If someone chooses one, they add the parts to fit the listing. With workstations, they must find a way to buy large lots of systems that come off leases. One thing is certain, looking in "Completed Listings" they don't sell very many with the very specification and high prices. Buyers probably will not buy a Precision T7500 at $4,600 no matter what components are used as a system 3 generation obsolete has a finite limit on performance.

So to make money, I would say it would be necessary to find a source of multiple systems at a wholesale price and do three or four of the same kind at once. This is 1., to get a good price on the systems, 2. start to have some stock of components, and 3. very importantly, to not have to do all the research on the component performance, results, and especially, for how much money can the end product be sold for a lot of different models of computer.

I learned this with restoring old cars. At one time I had a car collection: 1928 Packard 443 convertible, 1936 Packard coupe, 1954 Mercedes Benz, 1955 Cadillac Coupe, 1957 Jaguar XK140MC roadster, 1957 Morris Minor convertible, 1965 Volvo 122S station wagon, 1970 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3. And, it was an insane effort in time and money to understand, maintain, and repair all those different makes and models. Some of these were very rare, the 1954 190SL was No. 0046 and had parts that were not used on other 190SL's- the seats were from the 300SL for example and it had Aluminum body panel that were steel on the ones after No. 100. The 1928 Packard had a custom body and only 50 were made, and there were only 250 1970 Mercedes 6.3's and it has a complex air suspension that requires special tools- from 1970. I had to learn all these different technologies and needed three sets of tools- imperial, metric, and Whitworth and had to find sources of parts for American, German, English, and Swedish cars from 1928 to 1970- you can see what I mean.

These aspects are interesting to me as I'm working on a paper on theoretical frameworks to understand complex adaptive systems and system modeling. The CPU analysis of CPU for the T3500 posted earlier is part of the research for this paper as upgrading a computer has a nicely limited set of components, but also reveals how complex cost /benefit analyses are even when the factors are so limited. As simple as the idea of upgrading a $53 computer seems at first, the entire T3500 analysis is already 17 single-spaced pages- 10,000 words.

So, yes, I think it's possible to make money from upgrading computers, but choosing the system to use, evaluating the potential, understanding the performance of every part, the cost of those parts, and the eventual realistic sales price is very complex. It may be well to specialize in a certain kind by use-. It appears to me that the two groups that look for performance are gamers and people doing visualization work- 3D modeling and rendering are the most demanding. The hardware is becoming more and more specialized for those uses- the GPUs are quite different in operation- image quantity- frame rates for gamers, and image quality for visualization. then see which technoologies offer the best cost /performance. In CPU's I think it's LGA1366 Xeons and for GPU's, 7-series GTX. The best value in workstations cards are also the newer ones- the Quadro K620 for example.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

My personal motto: "Never use just one word when twenty will do just as well."



 


HAHA, as someone who reads scientific papers every single day, i am glad people in science don't take this advice. Some words can mean whole paragraphs worth of text and will be used back to back with similar words. So if one where to apply your philosophy to those kinds of papers, the very technical ones, they would be hundreds of pages long.

However, on Tom's Hardware, where you are seemlingly somewhat of a regular, i think using more words then strictly neccery to explain a situation to someone might actually be an honorable* approach.

*You know, because it takes a bunch of time and all that.
 


xblaauw,

Despite my redundant verbosity proclivity, I'm simultaneously an adherent of Computational Aesthetics. The foundation of this analysis was developed by Birkhoff in the 1930's- before digital computers. Referencing the precision of mathematics, Computational Aesthetics quantifies a technological aesthetic that the best description is a the shortest, clear sequence. Expressed:

M= Order / Complexity _ M being the aesthetic quantification.

Intuitive this seems true and of course in the case of algorithms and programming, highly desirable to the point of absolute- keep instruction sets as brief as possible and hierarchically ordered categorically and modally.

However, my experience has been that almost any analytical method - even as seemingly simple as choosing a CPU, accretes sub-routines with separate datasets and analytical sequences. The CPU has to be considered in terms of :system compatibility, suitability to the application, potential for optimization, durability, availability, very importantly, the ratio of cost to performance, and then is the factor of the market variability- e.g.,where to find the lowest cost one with the highest reliability.

Then.each of these tasks breaks into further tasks: how to determine the meaning of CPU "performance" for example. I settled into using Passmark Performance Test baselines as my reference because there are so many thousands of categorical, searchable baselines. These are comparative- only references to the others in the same test so it's necessary to understand the weighting of each factor in the results by comparison. My method to check the weighting is to order the results by descending overall system rating, then successively order by each test parameter: CPU, 2D, 3D, Memory, and Disk and see how far the system "jumps" in the listing when put in order of the descending scores of that parameter. The order seems to jump the least with CPU, then 3D, then Disk, to Memory, and lastly 2D. My impression is that Passmark believes that these factors are most important to the experience of performance.

Going into the emerging world of VR- which I think is going to be the next Big Deal, systems cost / performance analysis is going to add a whole extra dimension. For one thing, Passmarks will have to add a parameter of "nausea over time."

Cheers,

BambiBoom

O.K. another BambiBoom personal motto: "No matter what your wealth, power, and connections may be, the cheapest things in life are free."
 
Here's my take on things. Prices $USD.

I7-3770k $50
Msi z77 mpower Big Bang $50
16Gb Patriot 1866 ddr3 $20
Nzxt x61 $38
Fractal Design R5 window $20
WD 1Tb $40 (new)
Mushkin 120Gb SSD $20
Asus STRIX gtx970 $280 (new)
Evga 550w G2 $67 (new)

Total: $585.
New: @ $1290

Theres a lot can be said for shopping smart, catching sales or scratch'n'dent stuff (R5 had a small dent in 1 panel, easily fixed) or even picking up stuff used on eBay, its all just a matter of how much you want and what you'll compromise on. And then, of course, there's time. This build took me the better part of 6 months to finish. Some parts I refused to compromise, the hdd, gpu and psu, some parts were NOS like the mobo, and then there's the pay-n-pray stuff like the ram and cpu.

I don't see anything wrong with buying used or otherwise non-brand new parts, but you will by default take your chances on not just reliability of those parts, but also the reliability of the person selling them, some are not as forthcoming with the truth as others