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Question Buying decision: PCIE 4.0

deathsentry

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I'm currently looking at an OriginPC Millennium model but held off on the order because of Intel's lack of support for PCIE 4.0. The processor specified is i9900k but was wondering, if I do purchase this, do you think Intel will provide PCIE 4.0 support on this processor family or will it only provide it in the upcoming Rocket family? If so, any idea when it would be available? Am considering waiting if the feature won't be backward compatible on the I9. Thoughts? Thanks! (p.s. Looking at this being a combination of a gaming rig but may also try to do some graphic workstation-type activities later..am retiring in a year and wanted to get my last big rig out.. it's i9900k, 2080TI, 64GB ram, 1 TB NVMe, 8 TB Sata)
 

GarrettL

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Sigh... ok.. even with the 490 motherboards? The speed differential just seems to good to pass up..perhaps I'll wait till next year

Yes and no. I have an AMD x570 PCIe 4.0 board.

I have over 500GB's of music. With NVMe M2 SSD storage there is simply no lag or stutter when you open the folder and scroll through the artists. I can transfer this file to another NVMe SSD extremely quickly.

I have two NVMe slots that do not disable an SSD port if both are used.

That's about it right now. I love PCIe 4.0 just for the storage. But it's not a deal breaker over PCIe 3.0 at this point in time. Most people won't populate all the SATA slots on PCIe 3.0 either.

Simply put, 4.0 is something you won't know or feel sitting behind the keyboard.
 
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deathsentry

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Yes and no. I have an AMD x570 PCIe 4.0 board.

I have over 500GB's of music. With NVMe M2 SSD storage there is simply no lag or stutter when you open the folder and scroll through the artists. I can transfer this file to another NVMe SSD extremely quickly.

I have two NVMe slots that do not disable an SSD port if both are used.

That's about it right now. I love PCIe 4.0 just for the storage. But it's not a deal breaker over PCIe 3.0 at this point in time. Most people won't populate all the SATA slots on PCIe 3.0 either.

Simply put, 4.0 is something you won't know or feel sitting behind the keyboard.
I was thinking if I have my NVMe for my boot drive, but SATA for my storage drive, then that transfer between the two would be faster with 4.0 (thinking graphic files, etc). But if I were to go with my current config, then at most I guess I would have to change the processor in the future (assuming the z490 really is PCIE 4.0 compatible)? Looking to keep this rig for at least 10 years
 

GarrettL

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If you do enough content creation to justify PCIe 4.0, then that's up to you.

I went with the PCIe 4.0 when I built last November. My previous i7 960 lasted almost 10 years, and still running :) just retired from gaming. No one has a crystal ball for PCIe 4.0 but when building I also try to build for the log term now, and not feel like an idiot in three years.

For gaming and content creation the 3900x on an X570 or B550 motherboard is a great choice too. Intel isn't the only player in the game anymore, AMD is back and doing a fantastic job.
 

deathsentry

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If you do enough content creation to justify PCIe 4.0, then that's up to you.

I went with the PCIe 4.0 when I built last November. My previous i7 960 lasted almost 10 years, and still running :) just retired from gaming. No one has a crystal ball for PCIe 4.0 but when building I also try to build for the log term now, and not feel like an idiot in three years.

For gaming and content creation the 3900x on an X570 or B550 motherboard is a great choice too. Intel isn't the only player in the game anymore, AMD is back and doing a fantastic job.
You raise a good point, I've been looking at AMD but was a little dissuaded based on gaming performance numbers and inability to overclock to 5.0ghz+ .. I guess in my mind I wanted a powerful rig that would last (seems like you achieved that with your i7!).. and you're right, i want it for the long haul, i won't have the money in retirement to keep replacing them every 3 years. Maybe I'll revisit AMD
 

GarrettL

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You raise a good point, I've been looking at AMD but was a little dissuaded based on gaming performance numbers and inability to overclock to 5.0ghz+ .. I guess in my mind I wanted a powerful rig that would last (seems like you achieved that with your i7!).. and you're right, i want it for the long haul, i won't have the money in retirement to keep replacing them every 3 years. Maybe I'll revisit AMD
This Ryzen build is my first with AMD since the Athlon days. If memory serves, Intel was still better for gaming at that time too but AMD was very affordable. I think the gap between AMD and Intel is even smaller now than it was back then.

AMD's don't require a manual overclock as the gains are minimal to none compared to letting the cpu auto-boost as designed. You do want fast memory 3600MHz-3800MHz with low latency.

So gaming performance, that all depends on your monitor resolution. I'm a 52 year old that has been into PC's since the Commodore 64 days.

The single biggest mistake I've made over the years is not investing in a really nice monitor. In your build you have a 2080Ti, do you have a 4k monitior? I would suggest a 2080 Super at most and use the savings on a IPS 1440p monitor if you're not looking for 4k.

I have had my Asus PG279Q for 6 months. The higher pixel count of 1440p has fantastic detail compared to 1080p and the colors of the IPS are simply...gorgeous! I'll never go back to 1080p or a TN panel.

Once you get into higher resolutions such as 1440p and up, the cpu is not the "bottleneck" as more demand is placed on the gpu. You will see the same FPS at 4k with a 9700k as you would with a 9900k. When you get to 1440p Intel leads by a few frames in some games and AMD leads in a few others. Just food for thought.

And finally, if you want Intel then the new 10,000 series provide better performance at a lower cost.

This video is a little old but still shows what's going on;
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J5m-68bvew
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
As far as I'm aware, the x570 motherboards have one PCIe 4.0 NVME slot and one 3.0 NVME slot that runs through the chipset. So keep that in mind.
The x570 chipset has up to 16 PCIe 4.0 lanes and officially supports up to two NVMe 4.0x4 SSDs using those on top of the 4.0x4 from the CPU. You only get 3.0 speed if the slot fails to run at 4.0 for some reason such as chipset TDP/thermal limit, signal integrity issue or the peripheral not supporting 4.0.

B550 is the chipset that only goes up to 3.0 for stuff connected to it and you will still get 4.0x4 from the CPU-fed NVMe/PCIe slot.
 
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deathsentry

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This Ryzen build is my first with AMD since the Athlon days. If memory serves, Intel was still better for gaming at that time too but AMD was very affordable. I think the gap between AMD and Intel is even smaller now than it was back then.

AMD's don't require a manual overclock as the gains are minimal to none compared to letting the cpu auto-boost as designed. You do want fast memory 3600MHz-3800MHz with low latency.

So gaming performance, that all depends on your monitor resolution. I'm a 52 year old that has been into PC's since the Commodore 64 days.

The single biggest mistake I've made over the years is not investing in a really nice monitor. In your build you have a 2080Ti, do you have a 4k monitior? I would suggest a 2080 Super at most and use the savings on a IPS 1440p monitor if you're not looking for 4k.

I have had my Asus PG279Q for 6 months. The higher pixel count of 1440p has fantastic detail compared to 1080p and the colors of the IPS are simply...gorgeous! I'll never go back to 1080p or a TN panel.

Once you get into higher resolutions such as 1440p and up, the cpu is not the "bottleneck" as more demand is placed on the gpu. You will see the same FPS at 4k with a 9700k as you would with a 9900k. When you get to 1440p Intel leads by a few frames in some games and AMD leads in a few others. Just food for thought.

And finally, if you want Intel then the new 10,000 series provide better performance at a lower cost.

This video is a little old but still shows what's going on;
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J5m-68bvew
You're right..I've been so focused on the engine, hadn't looked at a good monitor yet. I bought a 4k TV earlier this year and that was close to $2500, definitely can't afford that for my pc. 1440p sounds good, especially given the additional detail you mention.. I had looked at writeups in one of the magazines and wasn't sure about IPS vs. TN so thanks for the heads up there. Perhaps the Super will suffice, especially if it can allow me to afford a good monitor.
 

GarrettL

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The x570 chipset has up to 16 PCIe 4.0 lanes and officially supports up to two NVMe 4.0x4 SSDs using those on top of the 4.0x4 from the CPU. You only get 3.0 speed if the slot fails to run at 4.0 for some reason such as chipset TDP/thermal limit, signal integrity issue or the peripheral not supporting 4.0.

B550 is the chipset that only goes up to 3.0 for stuff connected to it and you will still get 4.0x4 from the CPU-fed NVMe/PCIe slot.
Depends on the motherboard;

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/TUF-GAMING-X570-PLUS-WI-FI/specifications/
 
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GarrettL

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Wrong, depends on the CPU: all slots that have a PCIe 3.0 limitation are those connected to the CPU when you use a CPU that only supports 3.0.
So with a 3700x the Asus TUF x570 motherboard will see PCIe 4.0 bandwidth speeds on both NVME slots even though the motherboard specs state 3.0 speeds on the second NVME slot?
 
What pcie 4.0 devices do you intend to use?

If you are looking at future graphics cards, there will be a benefit only with the very top end cards. Today, there is little difference in performance between pcie 2/3.
nvidia 3000 series graphics are due in the fall starting at the highest end. They will be expensive and scarce.
If you are buying a graphics card today, pick a EVGA unit, They have a 90 day upgrade option if something stronger becomes available.

For storage, I recently saw that samsung is supposed to launch a 980 pro version this fall.
It will certainly be a barnburner, but I expect a hefty price.

I think if I were to build a big rig, I would go with intel 10th gen i7-10700K which is cheaper and faster than 9900K.
Buy a good Z490 motherboard. Most vendors say that they are pcie 4.0 capable, likely with a bios update.

For now, look at a samsung 970 evo plus for a fast ssd.
 
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As far as I'm aware, the x570 motherboards have one PCIe 4.0 NVME slot and one 3.0 NVME slot that runs through the chipset. So keep that in mind.
The chipset is also PCIE 4 on x570 motherboards if it's as I've been led to believe. So there is no difference in speed. Not that it matters because for all but copying data between PCIE 4 devices you won't notice any difference. Right now, graphics cards that are PCIE 4 don't show any improvement over PCIE 3.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
Right now, graphics cards that are PCIE 4 don't show any improvement over PCIE 3.
The 4GB RX5500 shows massive improvement (almost double the worst-case performance) when it starts running out of VRAM between 3.0x8 and 4.0x8, which takes it from marginally usable to decent. Ironically, PCIe 4.0 which enthusiasts regard as a "high-end" feature yields some of its greatest benefits at the entry-level. 4.0x16 will be very much necessary to make next-gen 4GB GPUs viable as game assets keep getting bigger.

So with a 3700x the Asus TUF x570 motherboard will see PCIe 4.0 bandwidth speeds on both NVME slots even though the motherboard specs state 3.0 speeds on the second NVME slot?
Where do you see that? Here are the relevant bits copy-pasted from the specs page:

AMD Ryzen™ Processors :
1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280/22110(PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support

AMD X570 chipset :
1 x M.2 Socket 3, with M Key, Type 2242/2260/2280/22110(PCIE 4.0 x4 and SATA modes) storage devices support
No PCIe 3.0 there.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
Why would one run a RX5500 (or any graphics card for that matter) in a x8 slot and not in a X16 slot?
I answered my own question; it seems that the 4gb version only runs at x8.
The RX5500 is 4.0x8 regardless of 4GB vs 8GB.

The 8GB version fares much better on 3.0x8 because it has twice as much VRAM, therefore won't need to touch system memory anywhere near as much until details are cranked well beyond the GPU's comfort zone. On the 4GB version, the GPU often has plenty of performance left to give but cannot do so without 4.0x8 to let it access system memory fast enough to offset its VRAM deficit.
 

GarrettL

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Dec 4, 2019
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The 4GB RX5500 shows massive improvement (almost double the worst-case performance) when it starts running out of VRAM between 3.0x8 and 4.0x8, which takes it from marginally usable to decent. Ironically, PCIe 4.0 which enthusiasts regard as a "high-end" feature yields some of its greatest benefits at the entry-level. 4.0x16 will be very much necessary to make next-gen 4GB GPUs viable as game assets keep getting bigger.


Where do you see that? Here are the relevant bits copy-pasted from the specs page:


No PCIe 3.0 there.

Under storage;
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/TUF-GAMING-X570-PLUS-WI-FI/specifications/
 
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