Cache Architecture or Overall CPU Archticture?

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MeTaLrOcKeR

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Well Flyboy, now if you read my original post, that was my original thought too......

-MeTaL RoCkEr

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Matisaro

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skater, you may know what you are talking about, you may not.


No one gives a flying [-peep-], and you know why.....its your damned pissant arrogant attitude and the way you post in a condecending manner.

If you want people to take you seriously, stop insulting them with your posts.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
 

balzi

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Unfortunately I'm gonna have to agree here..
sk8er, you did seem to have a short fuse.
Honestly, you may need to start appreciating that some people aren't afriad to ask the 'dumb' questions because they hope someone will simpyl answer them.

right, to business.
I think I'm hearing our question FlyBoy.
Are we talking about the way the processor handles cache-misses.. how it refreshes it's cache.. where it puts data, who is replaced first etc..

I'm pretty sure this is the 'algorithms' your after..

The most simplistic algorithms are things like FIFO, LIFO.. etc.
Course, AMD and Intel would be way beyond the simple answers like this.

Starting from the start (now that's ingenuity)
A processor lumps code that it's using into cache, from there it can access it a lot quicker than from anywhere else.. but when it finds that the next instruction (or group of) isn't in cache it grabs it from RAM. Of course, cache isn't an endlessly generating plethora of memory cells, so somethings gotta make room.
In other words, some of the data in cache must be removed to make room. But which data... the processor doesn't want to remove something that it may need in the very near future,. preferably it wants to remove something that it will never need again. So it tries to guess which data is 'less' useful. these days it's a lot more comlpex than "let's get the oldest data and remove that" which is a type of FIFO (first in first out).. most would keep some sort of counter on each block and the one that hasn't been accessed for the longest time gets removed.
It takes silicon to do these calculations.. that's where FILO anf LIFO (first in last out OR last in first out)(same thing) might be useful, they take next to no hardware calculations to keep track of. but they're VERY VERY <b>in</b>efficient.
I don't know what AMD and Intel do for this but you can bet it's different.. just look at where performance drops off on data array sizes vs. total cache sizes..

The second algorithm which, no doubt, changes between processors is the way they write any changes to data in cache back to the RAM and/or HD.
two that I can think of now are 'write-through' and 'delayed-write-back'.

Write-through means that whenever a cache block is changed by the processor (ie. the program data is manipulated by the program itself) the changes are immediately made in the corresponding RAM blocks and whereever else it's needed.
In this way any block can be safely ejected from cache without losing the changes.

Delayed write-back waits for a cache block to be tagged fro removal before it bothers to write changes back through to RAM, etc... in this way in can save time wasted needlessly writing back the same locations over and over.

so there's pros and cons there.. it's another trade-off - The name of the game in electronics, computers and probably nearly everything.

Hope that gets someone somewhere along the track to understanding.


I spilled coffee all over my wife's nighty... ...serves me right for wearing it?!?
 

Flyboy

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That was supposed to be a Pentium 750Mhz, not a Celeron. Sorry about that, I upgraded it a while back.

So the P3 doesn't have a L2 TLB because it has half the L2 cache (256K instead of 512K)? I figured it would still have a TLB. Maybe it does and CPUid is just not reporting it? I'm still looking on the internet for information.

BTW, it shows that the Intel PIII doesn't have L1 data cache. Is this correct?

Anyways, again, read up on a few past articles, both related to AMD and Intel processors, it will help you learn more about this stuff I can guarantee more than we could just sit here and tell you.......check it out...... =)
That's what I'm doing. Except I'm looking everywhere (search in Google). I haven't read Tom's article yet, but I believe I did read the one on the Athlon 500 a couple of years ago! That's the problem, I just need to do a little reviewing.

Perhaps this really can't be answered without a PhD level of research and lots of testing.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the write-back policy...man too much info! Going.....to.......explode...

Thanks!

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Flyboy on 01/15/02 07:07 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

FatBurger

Illustrious
You mean he's pissed off more than one person? :eek:















:wink:

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
 

Flyboy

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DUDE! Your on fire. That's what I really was interested in! Excellent post! Thanks!

Maybe I just really suck at communicating my thoughts! LoL
 

Flyboy

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Right, I wasn't trying to steal your idea- just trying to figure this stuff out. You definitely got my wheels turning...

BTW, How come you didn't get burned then? Hmmm, guess it was my poor use of Algorithm vs. implementation.
 

Flyboy

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The most simplistic algorithms are things like FIFO, LIFO.. etc.
Course, AMD and Intel would be way beyond the simple answers like this.
Yeah, I remember studying FIFO, LIFO, LRU, MFU, round-robin...but its been awhile and I desperately need to review.

So these systems (AMD and Intel) use much more complex replacement algorithms?
 
"Thanks. Do you feel that either the implementation (differences b/w intel and AMD) or the algorithms may be responsible for the performance differences? "

i'll just say they are the same because it is to a point. Algoritm is on paper and the implementation is the actual design.

but i still think it's probably the design of the chip itself. It's an older design unlike the athlon.

Isn't the pentium III based on the pentium PRO core? i'm not sure at all about that. Just a guess.

"That's where you and I got mixed up I think. My original thought was the actual memory management algorithms used to decide which data to cache and replace. But your post on cache implementation also intrigued me. Now I'm wondering whether either (or both) of these is key to the performance issues between AMD and Intel."

Ya it happens all the time in text reading.

It's more of a design in my opinion. Although it could be cache. No way to really find out. Something to think about though. I don't really know which design is better. From what i understand it depends on how you use it and whatnot. More involved then meets the eye. I'm sure you know this but perhaps look up in google and look up "cache" and see what that is all about.

"But thanks for clearing up the single cycle Vs. multicycle."

nooooooo problem :)

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ahhhh ok thanks....

so ya then the pentium III is old technology.... thats why the t-bird beats the p3 perhaps *shrugs*

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AMD_Man

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Not at all. The original technology has nothing to do with potential performance. You can always improve on a chip design without actually redoing the design from scratch. It's just Intel likes to start fresh every so often. That's why they made the Itanium. I guess they thought the x86 can't handle hardcore server apps.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
 
notice IMO, which i'm to assume "in my opinion"
is it that the truth hurts soo much that you lash out?

i don't really care it's your problem and you're the pathetic loser that actually makes it a personal issue. here's a clue, get a life, want a quarter so you can buy a life? fuc'k you, get a job you bum! you think i'm mean, shi't dude you haven't seen anything! Come to new york and see how long you last in the real world where mommies and daddies don't have porcshes to give you for your birthday! Damn preppy ass my wise and beautiful friend where the only thing you know how to do is bitch.

thats me being mean what i said before is nothing. You think i'm mean you should hear my girlfriend. She'll kick your a$$ and she don't have to lay a hand on you.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
 
hey you got a point.

i'm tired however. I'm sick of hearing people bi'tch of how i'm mean or being an [-peep-]. what the fu'ck go cry to your mommy, ya know?

just venting.

thanks!

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Flyboy

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I have a feeling that if I responded to you with, "If your saying, huh? I can't explain it any simpler than that",etc..., you would also b***h about it.

You definitely antagonize people. What kills me is when people antagonize you in return, they are crybabies. You can't see this? Here's an example:

Let's say I ask, "Hey what is AGP?"

Your answer would be, "WTF? You don't know what AGP is? RTFM. O.k. let me say this as politely as possible (which is a rude way of saying "I'm going to slam you now so brace yourself"), AGP is....blah blah...then you would follow it up with words to show how grateful we should be for your blessed response...like "College isn't free", "giving away free information", etc..

I myself have never seen Matisaro do this. He and many others give information without reservation, and are mature enough to provide constructive criticism- not destructive.

I mean do you talk this way to your coworkers and/or customers?

I hated to write this after we resolved our differences earlier, but I just can't see the logic behind your attitude.
 

74merc

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Flyboy, xxsk8er101xx is a dick, he has been since he started posting here.
remember, he's an collge educated dumbass, he's better than all of us...

----------------------
Independant thought is good.
It won't hurt for long.
 

MeTaLrOcKeR

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Dude...everyone, Mat, Flyboy.........You all know, this thread wasn't created to start a war of words..........

-MeTaL RoCkEr

My <font color=red>Z28</font color=red> can take your <font color=blue>P4</font color=blue> off the line!
 
your the one that started your [-peep-] so grow up and drop it.

like i [-peep-] care that a bunch of piss'pot prep ass my wise and beautiful friend highschoolers don't like me.

now run along grunt run along... shoo... go away.. before i step on you. Now fetch me my whopper and fries grunt!

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MeTaLrOcKeR

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Dude, if you read what i posted originally and than what i jsut said, there different, i posted thsi thread originally becasue i wnated to know about the cache architectures etc.

Than I just told all of u to relax, i dont wnna see evryone hatin' eachother.......I don't see why you just said what you did to me......

-MeTaL RoCkEr

My <font color=red>Z28</font color=red> can take your <font color=blue>P4</font color=blue> off the line!
 

FatBurger

Illustrious
What exactly is a "dick metalrocker"?

Punctuation is your friend :wink:

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by FatBurger on 01/16/02 03:50 PM.</EM></FONT></P>