CAD PC Build advice

[pcc93]

Hi All,

I know there is someone much more knowledgeable than me out there that might even be willing to pass some knowledge onto me.

I am looking to build a pc capable of running CAD applications namely Creo 2 (elements pro) and solidworks. It will also need to run PS and matlab and all the standard day to day stuff.

So I was planning on getting my hands on a nvidia quadro possibly going to try and pick up a second hand one a bit cheaper as it will only be a cad pc for a year and then i plan on getting a gaming card.

I have made a mock up of the system (video card not included)

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-4790 3.6GHz Quad-Core Processor (£219.54 @ Aria PC)
Motherboard: MSI Z87-G41 PC Mate ATX LGA1150 Motherboard (£48.31 @ CCL Computers)
Memory: Kingston 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1333 Memory (£99.97 @ Amazon UK)
Storage: Crucial MX100 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive (£74.39 @ Aria PC)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive (£35.94 @ Aria PC)
Case: Xigmatek Recon ATX Mid Tower Case (£30.55 @ Amazon UK)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA NEX 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply (£59.05 @ Amazon UK)
Total: £567.75
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-02 21:45 BST+0100


My total budget would ideally not exceed £800 but can be stretched to £1000 if it will harder/better/faster/stronger/longer!

Thanks in advance for any advice

 

[Rapajez]

Be sure the MSI Z87 is compatible with your i7-4790. The i7-4770 works fine with "87" chipsets, but not all 87's will support the i7-4790, or "Devil's Canyon" CPU. Most will support with a firmware flash.

It's probably easier, and more future-proof to just grab a "97" chipset. Also, you probably want a "H97", as the Z-chipsets are designed for unlocked CPUs and overclocking. I like the Gigabyte GA-H97-D3H series, especially for reliability. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128712&cm_re=gigabyte_h97-_-13-128-712-_-Product

If you have wiggle-room, you may want to bump up to 32GB of RAM. Look at your RAM utilization now. Can always be tossed in later. You could also bump the Crucial MX100 to a Samsung 840 EVO or 850 Pro, if you want the fastest and most reliable consumer SSD around.

Everything else looks solid. I'd look at the Antec, Corsair Carbide, and Fractal Design Define R4 series cases, as i don't have much experience with Xigmatek. As long as you have good reviews, and good cable routing, you should be fine.

 

[pcc93]

Be sure the MSI Z87 is compatible with your i7-4790. The i7-4770 works fine with "87" chipsets, but not all 87's will support the i7-4790, or "Devil's Canyon" CPU. Most will support with a firmware flash.

It's probably easier, and more future-proof to just grab a "97" chipset. Also, you probably want a "H97", as the Z-chipsets are designed for unlocked CPUs and overclocking. I like the Gigabyte GA-H97-D3H series, especially for reliability. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128712&cm_re=gigabyte_h97-_-13-128-712-_-Product

If you have wiggle-room, you may want to bump up to 32GB of RAM. Look at your RAM utilization now. Can always be tossed in later. You could also bump the Crucial MX100 to a Samsung 840 EVO or 850 Pro, if you want the fastest and most reliable consumer SSD around.

Everything else looks solid. I'd look at the Antec, Corsair Carbide, and Fractal Design Define R4 series cases, as i don't have much experience with Xigmatek. As long as you have good reviews, and good cable routing, you should be fine.

Thanks for the advice on the board, I think I will therefore go with a Z97 chipset as I donto want to rule out overclocking. I have gone with the MSI Z97 Guard-Pro as it seems to meet all my requirements but if you think the Gigabyte GA-Z97-HD3 might be better they are the same price. I can't see much in it myself. Can you?


As far as RAM goes the reason I chose 2x8GB carsh not the cheaper 4x4GB was so that I can easily upgrade later if needs be but i think 16GB should be ok for now and if not it will be no problem to upgrade.

I will do a bit more SSD research and possibly look at getting something to go in the faster m.2 slot on that new board.

Cheers for the case tips will check them out.

 

[bambiboom]

pcc93,

In my view, specifying a workstation has the best results when the most used, most demanding application is the basis for the choices. Programs today are increasingly optimized for particular hardware and some workstation programs will not well on gaming graphics cards, Solidworks being a prime example. Gaming card are oriented to high frame rates and workstation cards to precision and image quality- a $175 Firepro can be faster than a GTX Titan. With intensive and high quality image creation, rendering, a workstation card provides much higher anti-ailiasing (Solidworks provides a 128x driver for Quadros), viewports, 10-bit color. MATLAB and other custom algorythmic applications are multi-threaded and should be run on as many cores as practical, using ECC error-correcting RAM as a one-bit error in a waveform or data analysis can end up being amplified many times.

The LGA2011-3 system is the best choice today as you can start with a 4-core and later have up to 18-cores and the DDR4 RAM has a native speed of 2133. The best cost.performance CPU is probably the 6-core Xeon E5-1650v3, but the 4-core E5-1620v3 has high clock speeds is less expensive:

http://ark.intel.com/products/82763/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-1620-v3-10M-Cache-3_50-GHz

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/intel-xeon-e5-1620-v3-s2011-3-quad-core-35ghz-10mb-140w-retail

The motherboards for Xeons are usually more expensive as is ECC, but there is one that is quite good value and probably very fast having the new X99 chipset:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/asrock-x99-extreme-4-x99-socket-2011-v3-quad-channel-ddr4-3000plus%28oc%29-3-pcie-30-x16-1-pcie-20-x16-1

Another tactic, with some amount of risk but with a much higher cost /performance plus saving the research, ordering, assembling, configuration, and testing of building would be to buy a good, used Dell Precision T7500, specifically with a pair of the excellent Xeon x5680 - 6-core @ 3.33 /3.6GHz, a lot of RAM, and a good Quadro. For example:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dell-Precision-T7500-2-x-Intel-Xeon-X5680-6-Core-48GB-RAM-1TB-NVidia-Quadro-4000-/131230148982?pt=DE_Technik_Computer_Peripherieger%C3%A4te_PC_Systeme&hash=item1e8ded2976

- a completed listing at about £1100 but with two 6-core x5680, 48GB of RAM and a Quadro 4000. That would have cost probably £8,000-9,000 new. This would be excellent with Creo, Solidworks, and think of those fast 12 cores /24 threads working on your MatLab problems. Plus, l the several days' work of building a system can be put into optimizing the existing system. Dell Precisions are beautifully made. I bought a used T5400 in 2010 -that originally cost over $6,000 for $500 and ran it 20 hours per day for 4 years with no failures.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

HP z420 (2014) > Xeon E5-1620 quad core @ 3.6 / 3.8GHz > 24GB DDR3 ECC 1600 RAM > Quadro 4000 (2GB)> Samsung 840 SSD 250GB /Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > AE3000 USB WiFi > HP 2711X, 27" 1920 X 1080 > Windows 7 Ultimate 64 >[Passmark system rating = 3923, 2D= 839 / 3D=2048]

Dell Precision T5400 (2008) > 2X Xeon X5460 quad core @3.16GHz > 16GB DDR2 ECC 667> Quadro FX 4800 (1.5GB) > WD RE4 500GB / Seagate Barracuda 500GB > M-Audio 2496 Sound Card / Linksys 600N WiFi > Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit > [Passmark system rating = 1859, CPU = 8528 / 2D= 512 / 3D=1097]

Dell Precision 390 (2005) Xeon x3230 quad core @ 2.67GHz > 8 GB DDR2 ECC 667 > Firepro V4900 (1GB)> 2X WD 320GB > Windows 7 Profession 64-bit

2D, 3D CAD, Image Processing, Rendering, Text > Architecture, industrial design, graphic design, written projects

 

[Rapajez]

Thanks for the advice on the board, I think I will therefore go with a Z97 chipset as I donto want to rule out overclocking. I have gone with the MSI Z97 Guard-Pro as it seems to meet all my requirements but if you think the Gigabyte GA-Z97-HD3 might be better they are the same price. I can't see much in it myself. Can you?

As far as RAM goes the reason I chose 2x8GB carsh not the cheaper 4x4GB was so that I can easily upgrade later if needs be but i think 16GB should be ok for now and if not it will be no problem to upgrade.

I will do a bit more SSD research and possibly look at getting something to go in the faster m.2 slot on that new board.

Cheers for the case tips will check them out.

If you want to overclock, along with a Z97 mobo, you need to change your CPU to a i7-4790K (k=unlocked).

I haven't done a side-by-side, but if you look at reviews between those 2 boards, you should see more positive reviews for the Gigabyte, and less DoA boards. Gigabyte runs all of their UD3 boards in a testbed for a few days before shipping them. The BLK edition is tested longer and comes with the longer warranty (and is also...Black).

You can consider bambiboom Haswell-E (LGA2011-3) idea, but that quite a price jump. You'll be paying a premium for the bleeding-edge DDR4 and i7-5XXX CPUs, which you may not benifit (enough) from, depending on exactly what you're doing. I'd imagine the Z97 platform would meet your needs, and will also support the next gen of Broadwell CPUs as well.

Agreed with the GPU comments. Keep in mind that certain applications run better with NVIDIA's Quadro series, some with AMD Firepro, and some run fine with a regular gaming GPU. Do your research for your applications.

The Dell Precision sounds like a solid idea too, if you don't mind someone else building your PC. 😛

 

[pcc93]

pcc93,

In my view, specifying a workstation has the best results when the most used, most demanding application is the basis for the choices. Programs today are increasingly optimized for particular hardware and some workstation programs will not well on gaming graphics cards, Solidworks being a prime example. Gaming card are oriented to high frame rates and workstation cards to precision and image quality- a $175 Firepro can be faster than a GTX Titan. With intensive and high quality image creation, rendering, a workstation card provides much higher anti-ailiasing (Solidworks provides a 128x driver for Quadros), viewports, 10-bit color. MATLAB and other custom algorythmic applications are multi-threaded and should be run on as many cores as practical, using ECC error-correcting RAM as a one-bit error in a waveform or data analysis can end up being amplified many times.

The LGA2011-3 system is the best choice today as you can start with a 4-core and later have up to 18-cores and the DDR4 RAM has a native speed of 2133. The best cost.performance CPU is probably the 6-core Xeon E5-1650v3, but the 4-core E5-1620v3 has high clock speeds is less expensive:

http://ark.intel.com/products/82763/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-1620-v3-10M-Cache-3_50-GHz

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/intel-xeon-e5-1620-v3-s2011-3-quad-core-35ghz-10mb-140w-retail

The motherboards for Xeons are usually more expensive as is ECC, but there is one that is quite good value and probably very fast having the new X99 chipset:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/asrock-x99-extreme-4-x99-socket-2011-v3-quad-channel-ddr4-3000plus%28oc%29-3-pcie-30-x16-1-pcie-20-x16-1

Another tactic, with some amount of risk but with a much higher cost /performance plus saving the research, ordering, assembling, configuration, and testing of building would be to buy a good, used Dell Precision T7500, specifically with a pair of the excellent Xeon x5680 - 6-core @ 3.33 /3.6GHz, a lot of RAM, and a good Quadro. For example:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dell-Precision-T7500-2-x-Intel-Xeon-X5680-6-Core-48GB-RAM-1TB-NVidia-Quadro-4000-/131230148982?pt=DE_Technik_Computer_Peripherieger%C3%A4te_PC_Systeme&hash=item1e8ded2976

- a completed listing at about £1100 but with two 6-core x5680, 48GB of RAM and a Quadro 4000. That would have cost probably £8,000-9,000 new. This would be excellent with Creo, Solidworks, and think of those fast 12 cores /24 threads working on your MatLab problems. Plus, l the several days' work of building a system can be put into optimizing the existing system. Dell Precisions are beautifully made. I bought a used T5400 in 2010 -that originally cost over $6,000 for $500 and ran it 20 hours per day for 4 years with no failures.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

Thanks for the very usefull and information rich post. Having done a bit more research I dont think the ECC is nesicary for me and also the LGA2011-3 seems to add too much to the cost for a level of professionality i really don't need and cant justify.

The buying a used dell precision T7500 is extreamly tempting, I can get this for £570 which seems great value for the specs but it is a old machine.

I now need to weigh up going for a higher spec older machine or a shiny new one with a lower spec. seeing as computers really only last 4 years without having to be upgraded in some way i cant help but worry the dell would already be dated but I don't know. maybe you can shed some more light on it.



from doing more research into ptc Creo they seem to be all pally with nvidea reccomending quadros but I found some side by side speed comparisons showing the firepro's to perform better. prehaps I should look into going down the AMD route as it would mean I could get a higher spec CPU and GPU but would they actually be better? I have no idea. I going crazy trying to make this descission and I need to get is sorted by last week to start work on my project!!!

 

[bambiboom]

pcc93,

If you need to get sorted by last week to do a project, then it would seem that buying a system ready to use is a foregone conclusion. There's little possibility you would be able to research, order, and receive anything by the ta time, much less assemble and configure as well. There are no guarantees of course, but Dell Precision are built along the lines of a server- work at full- bore and full-time. The 2008 T5400 I use for rendering has never failed since I bought it in 2010 for 1/10th the original price. I added the second CPU, changed the Quadro FX 580 for an FX 4800, and the 4GB RAM to 16GB, but the performance is quite good and even more importantly, - it always works. Today, it's worth probably 80-90% of my investment- it was about fully depreciated when I bought it.

Yes, the T7500 is obsolete, but if you got a good one, changed to a fast GPU and had enough memory, I could well last as long as you would keep a new system anyway. Since 1994, I've had eight systems- that's about three years each on average. I still have my system from 1998- a Dell Dimension T700R Pentium III 750MHz that cost almost $2,500- and it works perfectly as does my 2004 Dimension 8400 P4 3GHz. Neither worth a bean of course, but still useful.

ECC RAM: Yes the latency is a bit higher, but if you're using Matlab, you might be glad you have it, especially in waveform and filtering calculations.

Quadro vs. Firepro: There are some ways in which each works better- it depends on the applications. If you're using Autodesk, Solidworks, and/or Adobe, I'd recommend Quadro, but for Matlab, Firepros seem to better for calculation-intensive stuff. I think Radeons are all the rage in the Bitcoin world- doing well with all those numbers!

Cheers,

BambiBoom

HP z420 (2014) > Xeon E5-1620 quad core @ 3.6 / 3.8GHz > 24GB DDR3 ECC 1600 RAM > Quadro 4000 (2GB)> Samsung 840 SSD 250GB /Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > AE3000 USB WiFi > HP 2711X, 27" 1920 X 1080 > Windows 7 Ultimate 64 >[Passmark system rating = 3923, 2D= 839 / 3D=2048]

Dell Precision T5400 (2008) > 2X Xeon X5460 quad core @3.16GHz > 16GB DDR2 ECC 667> Quadro FX 4800 (1.5GB) > WD RE4 500GB / Seagate Barracuda 500GB > M-Audio 2496 Sound Card / Linksys 600N WiFi > Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit > [Passmark system rating = 1859, CPU = 8528 / 2D= 512 / 3D=1097]

Dell Precision 390 (2005) Xeon x3230 quad core @ 2.67GHz > 8 GB DDR2 ECC 667 > Firepro V4900 (1GB)> 2X WD 320GB > Windows 7 Profession 64-bit [Passmark system rating = 1431, CPU = 3642 / 2D= 433 / 3D=1346]


2D, 3D CAD, Image Processing, Rendering, Text > Architecture, industrial design, graphic design, written projects

 

[pcc93]

pcc93,

If you need to get sorted by last week to do a project, then it would seem that buying a system ready to use is a foregone conclusion. There's little possibility you would be able to research, order, and receive anything by the ta time, much less assemble and configure as well. There are no guarantees of course, but Dell Precision are built along the lines of a server- work at full- bore and full-time. The 2008 T5400 I use for rendering has never failed since I bought it in 2010 for 1/10th the original price. I added the second CPU, changed the Quadro FX 580 for an FX 4800, and the 4GB RAM to 16GB, but the performance is quite good and even more importantly, - it always works. Today, it's worth probably 80-90% of my investment- it was about fully depreciated when I bought it.

Yes, the T7500 is obsolete, but if you got a good one, changed to a fast GPU and had enough memory, I could well last as long as you would keep a new system anyway. Since 1994, I've had eight systems- that's about three years each on average. I still have my system from 1998- a Dell Dimension T700R Pentium III 750MHz that cost almost $2,500- and it works perfectly as does my 2004 Dimension 8400 P4 3GHz. Neither worth a bean of course, but still useful.

ECC RAM: Yes the latency is a bit higher, but if you're using Matlab, you might be glad you have it, especially in waveform and filtering calculations.

Quadro vs. Firepro: There are some ways in which each works better- it depends on the applications. If you're using Autodesk, Solidworks, and/or Adobe, I'd recommend Quadro, but for Matlab, Firepros seem to better for calculation-intensive stuff. I think Radeons are all the rage in the Bitcoin world- doing well with all those numbers!

Cheers,

BambiBoom

HP z420 (2014) > Xeon E5-1620 quad core @ 3.6 / 3.8GHz > 24GB DDR3 ECC 1600 RAM > Quadro 4000 (2GB)> Samsung 840 SSD 250GB /Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > AE3000 USB WiFi > HP 2711X, 27" 1920 X 1080 > Windows 7 Ultimate 64 >[Passmark system rating = 3923, 2D= 839 / 3D=2048]

Dell Precision T5400 (2008) > 2X Xeon X5460 quad core @3.16GHz > 16GB DDR2 ECC 667> Quadro FX 4800 (1.5GB) > WD RE4 500GB / Seagate Barracuda 500GB > M-Audio 2496 Sound Card / Linksys 600N WiFi > Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit > [Passmark system rating = 1859, CPU = 8528 / 2D= 512 / 3D=1097]

Dell Precision 390 (2005) Xeon x3230 quad core @ 2.67GHz > 8 GB DDR2 ECC 667 > Firepro V4900 (1GB)> 2X WD 320GB > Windows 7 Profession 64-bit [Passmark system rating = 1431, CPU = 3642 / 2D= 433 / 3D=1346]


2D, 3D CAD, Image Processing, Rendering, Text > Architecture, industrial design, graphic design, written projects

Thanks for the advice bambiboom.

I am writing this on my new (2nd hand refurb) Dell T7500 with two Xeon X5570 processors, 48GB Ram and a quadro FX4800 that I just bought for £450 for the whole system which I think is an absolute bargain.

Thank you so much for the advice I would never have thought of going down this route and I am happy I did.


Pcc93

forgot tom mention it cam with a TB hard drive and a new install of windows 7 pro which is nice too.

 

[bambiboom]

pcc93,

I'm very glad that you're pleased with the Precision T7500. Having a pair of the Xeon 5570 2.93 /3.33 should have excellent results and produces very good benchmarks. On Passmark Performance Test, a T7500 with two x5570's, a Quadro FX4800, and 24 GB RAM produced a rating of 2080, with CPU=10085 / 2D=590 / 3D=1067 / Memory=1901, Disk=631. I think the disk score on that particular system is low for a T7500- results for mech'l HD's can be 980. For comparison, my T5400 with dual four core X5460 at 3.2GHz and a Quadro FX 4800 produces Passmark system rating = 1859, CPU = 8528 / 2D= 512 / 3D=1097/ Memory-729, Disk=929. The hyperthreading CPU's are stronger and the DDR4 memory is not only much faster, it runs cooler and today costs half as much as the DDR2 in my system- and you have three times as many GB's.. The Quadro FX 4800 score is not very high by current standards, but it is 1.5GB and 384-bit and I've found that large, complex projects run particularly well on the wider memory bandwidth. I had very good results with Solidworks and Adobe CS on the FX 4800. By the way, when new, the FX 4800 cost about $1,200 or £742 and the two CPU's were $2,900 or £1793.

So, well done and best of luck.

Cheers,

BambiBoom