Can I build my computer with just an SSD and then later put a HDD in it?

[johnnycheddar78]

Sorry this question probably gets asked a lot. My budget for my build is $1386 exactly (weird budget) but I want a 500GB SSD and for the computer to be able to run games at 1440p so that's why I am wondering if I could just buy a hard drive later.

 

[Shektron]

Yes, you can do that. If you are going to keep the OS in the SSD itself(which is ideal), then once you put in the hard drive you'll just have to initialize and partition it from Windows itself, and you'd be good to go.

 

[CaptainCretin]

Make sure you have plenty of RAM, and turn off PageFile; as it will prematurely wear out the SSD.

 

[boju]

Nonsense.. Don't turn off pagefile, no need to worry about that. Enjoy your ssd.

 

[Shektron]

The SSD wearing out thing takes so long you could almost call it a myth. Pagefile does increase reads and writes on the SSD, but there's still a LOT of data that can be written on an SSD before any type of wear and tear. Seriously, you don't need to worry about it, unless all you do the whole day is copy and paste files from one folder to the other(and even then it'd take years for the SSD to wear out).

 

[CaptainCretin]

Nonsense.. Don't turn off pagefile, no need to worry about that. Enjoy your ssd.

Pagefile will constantly write data, even when you have enough RAM, SSDs have a limited number of Write cycles, so using pagefile will wear the drive out faster.
If you leave pagefile as "dynamic size" (the default setting), it is even worse.

Unnecessary pagefile use also slows down your system when under a heavy load, as the cpu is wasting time writing and reading data to/from the pagefile, when it could be doing something useful.

If you have more than 8GB of RAM, and you are worried about switching it off; set a static 2-4GB file size to minimise SSD wear.

If you have 16GB or more, pagefile is a complete waste of time.

I havent run a pagefile since last century (1GB on Win98se, 2GB on WinXP, 4GB on Win7 32, 8GB Win7 64); I havent run out of physical RAM yet.

 

[boju]

What graphics card do you have CaptainCretin and what games you play?

 

[CaptainCretin]

What graphics card do you have CaptainCretin and what games you play?

I have an RX470 8GB OC on a fairly elderly AMD 6 core system; games-wise, I dont play anything particularly demanding RAM-wise, but I do run a hefty database program that eats RAM for breakfast (I had to set the DB cache size to max several years ago, as default was getting too small).

The LOWEST available RAM report I have had is 1.75GB, out of 16GB, with the database program, torrenting program, multiple browser windows, email program, and a MMORPG all running at the same time.

(I like multi-tasking).

I only keep 2-3 major games on the SSD at a time, they currently take up ~80-90GB, plus another 20GB or so of older games like Red Alert YR.
I am waiting for a Fanatec CSR wheel to turn up, so I can go racing again; that will bump the SSD usage to about 200GB out of 240GB.
(CEX actually had a top wheel at a realistic price for a change).

 

[boju]

I agree with you and you've explained your argument well. For applications that don't use much Vram, can get away with manipulating the pagefile, if it's only cpu that is doing the work. Once you add vram on top of that with demanding games today with gpus's having enormous vram capacities like your gpu, 8GB ram and even 16GB ram systems can easily be overwhelmed. In a gaming system, pagefile is unpredictable and i've been noticing a trend for sometime with massive pagefiles being created due to lack of ram to support the amount of data put into vram. Not all vram has to be used before data is swapped, depends how the game is coded. Several games of current like to page and coincidentally ever since gpu's went beyond 4GB vram.

Take a look at posts regarding stutters in games such as Devision, BF1, Ghost Recon and GTA5 with 8GB system memory with 4GB+ graphics cards. Now we have gpu's tripled in memory capacity and resolutions and details are increasing and as such 8GB ram is showing limits. Windows consumes 1~1.5GB for it's own which doesn't leave much for vram buffer. 16GB is becoming the new recommendation albeit too little too late. A correspondence with how vram is used for game data storage and when data is transferred to and from system memory then to pagefile if not enough ram. Even 16GB system memory will soon not be enough either with games to come, not with 8~12GB cards we have today.

If not enough system memory to buffer vram data (obviously faster choice vs hdd/ssd) giving way to cpu's own orientated workload then the next choice is storage.

Play one of the games i mentioned with 3 or so GB vram usage, we'll see if pagefile becomes a problem.

 

[boju]

Forgot to say, ssds today are very durable. Can write/delete 10GB everyday if you wish it'll last 8years or more.

https://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead/4

 

[CaptainCretin]

I agree with you and you've explained your argument well. For applications that don't use much Vram, can get away with manipulating the pagefile, if it's only cpu that is doing the work. Once you add vram on top of that with demanding games today with gpus's with enormous vram capacities like your gpu, 8GB ram and even 16GB ram systems can easily be overwhelmed. In a gaming system, pagefile is unpredictable and i've been noticing a trend for sometime with massive pagefiles being created due to lack of ram to support the amount of data put into vram. Not all vram has to be used before data is swapped, depends how the game is coded. Several games of current like to page and coincidentally ever since gpu's went beyond 4GB vram.

Take a look at posts regarding stutters in games such as Devision, BF1, Ghost Recon and GTA5 with 8GB system memory with 4GB+ graphics cards. Now we have gpu's tripled in memory capacity and resolutions and details are increasing and as such 8GB ram is showing limits. Windows consumes 1~1.5GB for it's own which doesn't leave much for vram buffer. 16GB is becoming the new recommendation albeit too little too late. A correspondence with how vram is used for game data storage and when data is transferred to and from system memory then to pagefile if not enough ram. Even 16GB system memory will soon not be enough either with games to come, not with 8~12GB cards we have today.

If not enough system memory to buffer vram data (obviously faster choice vs hdd/ssd) giving way to cpu's own orientated workload then the next choice is storage.

Play one of the games i mentioned with 3 or so GB vram usage, we'll see if pagefile becomes a problem.

I might take you up on that, "Call of Duty WWII" seems to be the biggest memory pig; gaming in 2K it reportedly can use nearly 11GB of VRAM and 10GB of RAM, however I only game 1080p (triple buffer on).

https://www.techspot.com/article/1535-how-much-ram-do-you-need-for-gaming/

The interesting thing about this article is the pagefile usage; even though they were running 32GB of RAM, the system was still racking up huge pagefile sizes, why?? If COD was the worst hog at 10GB, and allowing 2GB for the OS; what is happening with the other 20GB of RAM ??

What I suspect is happening is, the cpu cannot access the pagefile to READ the data back, because the game is stressing it too much, so the file just keeps increasing in size until the game is over and the cpu has time to flush the file.

So yes, if you are running the latest game in 2k or 4k with the ultimate in cpu and gfx settings, then 32GB; but for mere mortals, 16GB is currently plenty - and no pagefile is still viable (I believe).

Any cheap deals for the game??

 

[boju]

Very good article there, it confirms my belief even though i've never seen evidence about vram vs paging in such detail so i thank you for the link.

Your guess is as good as mine, why is 20GB free memory not being used instead of pagefile.. It is interesting and could only guess it's Windows related and poor coding either by Microsoft staff or game developers and since differing game organisations behave similar could easily point the finger at Microsoft.

Good chat.

 

[johnnycheddar78]

Yes, you can do that. If you are going to keep the OS in the SSD itself(which is ideal), then once you put in the hard drive you'll just have to initialize and partition it from Windows itself, and you'd be good to go.

So how do I do that? Or does it do it automatically?

 

[CaptainCretin]

Very good article there, it confirms my belief even though i've never seen evidence about vram vs paging in such detail so i thank you for the link.

Your guess is as good as mine, why is 20GB free memory not being used instead of pagefile.. It is interesting and could only guess it's Windows related and poor coding either by Microsoft staff or game developers and since differing game organisations behave similar could easily point the finger at Microsoft.

Good chat.

I have been pointing my finger at Microsoft on this subject for years; it was back in the early days of XP when I noticed the OS was setting a HUGE pagefile and writing to it, even though my PC had plenty of free physical RAM.
By default, the OS sets ALL of the free space on the HDD as the pagefile, even back in the days of Win98, the advice was to set a fixed pagefile of ~ twice the size of your physical RAM.

Of course, the pagefile owes its existence to the poor memory handling of early '86 cpus; my old Amiga had 3 MB of RAM at at time when PCs couldnt use more than 32KB without a fudge.

 

[CaptainCretin]

Yes, you can do that. If you are going to keep the OS in the SSD itself(which is ideal), then once you put in the hard drive you'll just have to initialize and partition it from Windows itself, and you'd be good to go.

So how do I do that? Or does it do it automatically?

When you boot the PC with a new SSD/HDD in it, the OS will prompt you on what you want doing with the new drive; basically, take the default options and let it partition and format the drive. When it is finished, the drive will be ready to use.

 

[Shektron]

Yes, you can do that. If you are going to keep the OS in the SSD itself(which is ideal), then once you put in the hard drive you'll just have to initialize and partition it from Windows itself, and you'd be good to go.

So how do I do that? Or does it do it automatically?

https://youtu.be/ZxV6IcNvbek

^Fairly basic process.

 

[madmatt30]

5 minute process to add a secondary drive.

That said if the budget is really that tight I'd honestly consider a 240-275gb ssd & a 1tb drive from the off.

I suppose it depends on the timescale from building to when you have the money for another drive.

With game sizes nowadays you're looking at 5 or 6 new mainstream AAA titles on a 500gb drive .

If you can manage like,that for a while then fair play.