can i install GeForce 7800GS agp on 4x agp board

doggod

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currently i have an
intel d850mv board
2gig p4
1 gig rambus 800
ti4600 geforce 4
400 watt power supply

anmt changing the comp till end of year
but as this system will be kept as media center
i would like to put a good modern card in it to
run the games coming out till i get the new machine

unfortunatly the board is on 4x agp
it was state of the art when i bought an still runs well for everything but latest games
 

hergieburbur

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currently i have an
intel d850mv board
2gig p4
1 gig rambus 800
ti4600 geforce 4
400 watt power supply

anmt changing the comp till end of year
but as this system will be kept as media center
i would like to put a good modern card in it to
run the games coming out till i get the new machine

unfortunatly the board is on 4x agp
it was state of the art when i bought an still runs well for everything but latest games
You would be wasting money and forfeiting the 7800GS' power, but you can do it. Get one of the cards above, they are a better deal.
 

doggod

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i realise that but there is only a 30 euro difference between the 2 cards

XFX GeForce 6800GS 256MB GDDR3, AGP8X, Dual-DVI-I/Tv-Out, Retail
€269.00

Club3D GeForce 7800GS 256MB GDDR3 AGP, DVI, Video out
€298.00

Club 3D 7800GS 256MB

PERFORMANCE:
• 375MHz NVIDIA® G70 GPU
• 1200MHz 256BIT memory
• 256MB GDDR3 memory
• 400MHz RAMDAC
• 16 DirectX® 9.0 pixel-pipelines
• 8x AGP

Features:
• NVIDIA® CineFX™ 4.0 Technology
• NVIDIA® PureVideo™ Technology
• NVIDIA® nView™ multi-display Technology
• NVIDIA® Intellysample™ 4.0 Technology
• NVIDIA® UltraShadow™ II Technology
• Accelerated 64-Bit Texture Filtering and Blending
• Full support for DirectX® 9.0
• Shader Model 3.0
• VertexShaders 3.0 (U8, FP16, FP32)
• PixelShaders 3.0 (FP32)
• HDR Rendering Engine
• Support for unlimited shader lengths
• S-video output
• cvbs output
• DVI digital resolution up to 1900x1200
• HDTV-out up to 1920x1080i (through DVI)

and as this is the last card that will go in the system
also when she becomes a media centre it will be connected to pro a 40" high def lcd

i dont suppose that its possible to get a p4 rambus board any more
that way id grab an 8x version

would u still go for the 6800gs ?
 

baddog1

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I disagree with these guys. I think the 7800GS is a good choice. I realize your cpu will have fun trying to keep this card fed, but you'd have the same situation with the 6800. It will kick some serious butt. And when you you look at the wattage (and cooling) required, I'd go with the newest card. You'll feel like you've built a monster (for a while at least, but that would still happen even if you built an ace).
 

hergieburbur

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I disagree with these guys. I think the 7800GS is a good choice. I realize your cpu will have fun trying to keep this card fed, but you'd have the same situation with the 6800. It will kick some serious butt. And when you you look at the wattage (and cooling) required, I'd go with the newest card. You'll feel like you've built a monster (for a while at least, but that would still happen even if you built an ace).
That is true, but you will get the exact same performance from a lower card because the AGP slot is a bottleneck. If you want to pay extra to feel good, or to have the best AGP card there is and is likely to ever be, then go ahead. I would rather save the money.
 

baddog1

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That is true, but you will get the exact same performance from a lower card because the AGP slot is a bottleneck.

Bet you wouldn't, either. The 7800 is by far the better designed card. Between the extra pipelines, and the cooler running, I bet you get a few extra fps. And the picture is much prettier. And as for the money, that's a personal choice.
 

baddog1

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Oh, and as for the AGP "bottleneck", no cpu even comes close to maxing out the agp slot. Maybe on a 4x he'll occasionally hit the wall, but that'll be rare, and would happen with any card he installed.
 

hergieburbur

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Oh, and as for the AGP "bottleneck", no cpu even comes close to maxing out the agp slot. Maybe on a 4x he'll occasionally hit the wall, but that'll be rare, and would happen with any card he installed.
The CPU doesn't affect the AGP slot. It is based on the AGP slot speed (for 4x, 133MBPS with a peak of 1066MBps), the card speed, and loosely on the FSB speed (depending on if its locked or not).

Saying nothing can max out the AGP slot is just wrong, many PCI-E cards can do so, including the full 7800GT. Every review I have seen state the the 7800GS pushes the limits of AGP 8X, and even then is only on average 5 FPS faster than the 6800 Ultra, the difference will be small enough not to notice in a 4X board.

Like I said, it's your money, however, I would save it and use it somewhere else, and if you shop arounf, you ought to be able to find a cheaper 6800 series.
 

baddog1

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The CPU doesn't affect the AGP slot.

You are right, and you are still wrong, anyway. The cpu feeds the video to the card, and it absolutely has an effect. It doesn't change the maximum throughput, but it shovels the data as fast as it can. A 3ghz cpu will keep a 7800 fed with data, a 2ghz will occasionally not be able to keep up. The AGP slot will very rarely ever be "full", even for a second. You put two rigs next to each other, one with a 4x slot, and a 8x slot, and run something like Unreal Tournament, you will never see a difference. With a game like BF2, you just might see a little hiccupping with the 4xslot, but it will look just as good. Just a couple of fps slower.
 

hergieburbur

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Straight GHz isn't even a valid measure of CPU performance anymore, since a 2.0 GHz AMD is about the same as a 3GHz Intel. You are going to try to tell me that a 2GHz CPU with a 1 GHZ (one-way) bus has trouble overloading a 266MHz AGP slot? Where do you come up with that?

There are a lot of cases where your two rigs situation is true, and you won't notice a difference, it depends a lot on the card and the game. If you put a 6800 GS in that 4x board, and a 7800 GS, you would not be able to tell the difference without the aid of a benchmark. And at least here in America, the 6800 GS is half as much.

BTW, I am pretty sure that there are certain situations on Hyper Transport in which the CPU can be bypassed completely and the data fed directly to the Vid Card. I could be wrong on this last point, I just seem to remeber weeing it somewhere.
 

baddog1

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Straight GHz isn't even a valid measure of CPU performance anymore

No one said it was. I said that two identical systems (except one with a 4x and one with an 8x agp slot) will show no difference in picture quality, or even in framerate, except on extremely high density video.

You said he should save the money and use it somewhere else. Read his post. All he's buying is a video card. And he will get much better service from the 7800. He will get a much better picture from the extra pixel shader pipelines (which will allow him to run games at very high aa/af), and also from the fact the 7800 is a shader model 3 card, and the 6800 is a shader model 2 card. Any time you can get a more future-proof component and get at least the same performance, take it. And if I want the more expensive component, and I'm a little short, I'll work a couple extra weekends until I get what I want. You will never regret getting the gold, but you will often kick yourself if all you get is the bronze.
 

baddog1

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BTW, I am pretty sure that there are certain situations on Hyper Transport in which the CPU can be bypassed completely and the data fed directly to the Vid Card. I could be wrong on this last point, I just seem to remeber weeing it somewhere.

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What????????????
 

hergieburbur

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Straight GHz isn't even a valid measure of CPU performance anymore

No one said it was. I said that two identical systems (except one with a 4x and one with an 8x agp slot) will show no difference in picture quality, or even in framerate, except on extremely high density video.

You said he should save the money and use it somewhere else. Read his post. All he's buying is a video card. And he will get much better service from the 7800. He will get a much better picture from the extra pixel shader pipelines (which will allow him to run games at very high aa/af), and also from the fact the 7800 is a shader model 3 card, and the 6800 is a shader model 2 card. Any time you can get a more future-proof component and get at least the same performance, take it. And if I want the more expensive component, and I'm a little short, I'll work a couple extra weekends until I get what I want. You will never regret getting the gold, but you will often kick yourself if all you get is the bronze.
The 6800 is a Shader model 3 card, see here, all Nvidia series 6 and 7 and ATI series X1X00 cards support SM3. That is why I say you will see very little difference. The limiting factor here is not the card, but the port.

Even If he is not buying any other components, is he not allowed to use it anywhere else? Here in the US, I could use the $140 dollars difference to take my wife somewhere nice and out to dinner, which would bring me a lot more enjoyment than the difference between the two cards would.

If AGP is not a bottle neck, then why change to PCI-E at all?? And don't say its to force people to upgrade.
 

pauldh

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I disagree with you and don't feel AGP 4X will do much to a 7800GS's performance at gameable settings. Rarely does a 6800U get bottlenecked by running it in 4X as opposed to 8X. I did testing on an A64 4000+ & 6800U and saw little difference whatsoever between the two. Mostly under 1 fps. Also, OC'in the 6800U gave a boost just like when in 8X.

However, his P4 2.0GHz will be a bottleneck in many games. So I say a 6800GS would be a better match because of his CPU limitations, not because of AGP 4X. Give the modest savings based on his pricing, I'd go 7800GS though. Here in the USA at our prices, I'd look for a 6800GS.
 

pauldh

Illustrious
If AGP is not a bottle neck, then why change to PCI-E at all?? And don't say its to force people to upgrade.
We have been through this many times. No current AGP card performs any slower than it's identical PCI-e counterpart. As a matter of fact, with AGP fastwrites, the AGP systems often slightly beat out the PCI-e system. Even the X850XTpe is just as fast or possibly a tad faster in an NF3U AGP rig as it is in a NF4U PCI-e rig. The AGP bus is not being saturated. It would happen someday as the cards get more powerful, but I'd would not be surprised honestly if a X1900XT couldn't saturate the AGP 8X bus if they made an identical AGP version.
 

hergieburbur

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BTW, I am pretty sure that there are certain situations on Hyper Transport in which the CPU can be bypassed completely and the data fed directly to the Vid Card. I could be wrong on this last point, I just seem to remeber weeing it somewhere.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What????????????
Well, that would seem to be what this article implies: "With the advent of AGP, the GPU can also access a portion of the system memory directly."

As I said, I am not real sure about the details. I jsut remeber seeing references to it.
 

hergieburbur

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You are right about the Processor being a bottle neck in new games, I got kinda distracted from his initial posting.

I still don't think there would be a noticable difference (maybe 5-10fps as per my earlier references), which is what it comes down to. As you said, if he can't find better pricing in Europe, then go with the better card, in the US, I wouldn't waste my money.
 

doggod

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fraid i amnt in the us but in ireland
this is where im looking at
http://www.komplett.ie/k/kl.asp?bn=10413&sortBy=p&minprice=&maxPrice=&sortOrder=d
as basically no shipping costs

if the 6800gs was half the price id go for it
but its the 30 euro difference that is making me aim for the higher end card
there is the possibly i will come across a cheap agp system that would be an upgrade on mine secondhand etc
Pauldh where are u getting your price info for the 6800gs agp at half the 7800gs agp ?
 

baddog1

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If AGP is not a bottle neck, then why change to PCI-E at all?? And don't say its to force people to upgrade.

But that is the major reason at this time. (You're correct on the sm3, I was thinking of ATI.) But the extra pixel pipelines are enough of a reason to go for the upgrade. Running 4x or 8x anti-aliasing is a huge difference in picture quality, and it isn't dependent on the speed of the video card slot, or cpu speed.
The fact is, at this time, no game saturates the 8x agp slot. (Go read Maximum PC.) They most certainly will, within a year, maybe. But who cares? The only time anyone really cares about absolute maximum framerate is in a deathmatch against real people, and in that case, the gearheads lower their resolution and turn off aa/af anyway.

At the price differential he quotes, no way would I go for the lesser.
 

hergieburbur

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At the prices quoted I agree, buy the better one (you are getting screwed on prices by the way). I was working on the assumption that he may be able to find a better price ratio somewhere.

Depending on his resolution, The 6800 GS should be able to run most games at high quality anyway, including 4x/8x anti-aliasing (at least at 1024 x 768).
 

baddog1

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Sorry, but I haven't run 1024 x 768 since about 1999. The 30 inch lcd I'm using has a native resolution of 1366 x 1024, and while it's a gorgeous picture, I hate the relatively low resolution.
 

hergieburbur

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Good for you, Everyone has their own preferences on gaming. I am generally perfectly happy with 1280 x 1024 or 1024 x 768 on my 19" LCD for most games.

I did just notice his HTPC 40" LCD comment though, in which case I would say spend the extra $30.

This may be a dumb question, but OP, do you have a 1.5V AGP slot or a 3.3V one??
 

MarkG

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Same here. I'm getting a 7800GS for my AGP4x system, and even if the bus turns out to be the limiting factor at 1024x768, it's highly unlikely to be the limiting factor at 1600x1200 with any game more sophisticated than Quake 3.

OP, do you have a 1.5V AGP slot or a 3.3V one??
I believe AGP4x boards with intel chipsets are 1.5V only.
 

hergieburbur

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I don't know about Intel chipsets, but I have see a few AMD 4x boards at 3.3V, thats why I asked.

Like I said, it was a pretty stupid question.

Personally, I am probably going to upgrade from an AIW 9800 Pro to a PCI-e based X850XT for about $165 in the near future.
 

MarkG

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I thought about the X850XT, but they seem harder to get in the UK that the 7800GS, and SM3.0 is likely to be more useful in future than it has been up to now. Plus I run Avid editing software and that doesn't like ATI cards much.

I'm pretty sure that AGP4x only runs at 1.5V, but some chipsets also supported 3.3V for older AGP cards at 1x and maybe 2x. I'm also pretty sure that Intel chipsets didn't as I remember reading warnings about not putting old cards into my 845 motherboard because disagreements about voltages could cause permanent damage.

There's a page here which claims to list AGP support for different chipsets and cards:

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

According to that the 850 chipset is 1.5V only like the 845, and the 7800GS can run at 1.5V.
 

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