Canon Pixma 4200

[Tony]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably the
ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
The inks are dye based (CLI-8) except for the PGI-5BK pigment black.
Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years on Canon
photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I guess that
auto duplexing is also supported.
The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment PGI-5BK.
The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers that allow
this) and provide low ink warning.
Chip resetters are already being developed.

I have no affiliation with Canon so measekite please keep your garbage where it
belongs; in your mouth.

Tony

 

[zakezuke]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably the
> ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.

If you mean the ip3000 has been replaced by the ip4200, you could look
at it that way. I prefer to think of the ip3000 being abandoned. It
probally cost the same to produce as the ip4000... so pretty dang
pointless to continue making it.

> Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years on Canon
> photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.

Yea, and 30 years under glass rather than the older chromalife which
was rated at 25. There is a new claim of 10 years for other papers not
the glossy plus but I think those tests were internal to canon. No
clue what the old standard was... there are times that I thought it was
a few months.

> CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I guess that
> auto duplexing is also supported.

There is a rumor that the CD printing tray has been replaced by tray
Type C. The ip3000/4000/5000/6000d/8500 used tray type B, where the
i865 i965 and probally the i905 used tray type a. A to B look
identical except they moved the alignment reflectors fore of the disc.
I would appricate it if anyone with a tray type C to take the time and
scan it and send it to me.

But it looks like unlike the older pixmas the cd slot has rollers
onboard with a thinner piece of plastic blocking the slot.

> The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment PGI-5BK.
> The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
> incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers that allow
> this) and provide low ink warning.

Refillers can refill the current generation chips past the low ink
warning. I'm told you get a couple of low ink error messages and
eventually it will give up and say that "if you continue canon is not
accountable". I've not seen this message my self but it makes sense,
and is "somewhat" fair enough. It might lead to a few lawsuits as
technicaly use of 3rd party ink can't automaticly void the warranty.
Hopefully there will be chipresetters to keep the ink meter
operational. Not sure if the new series still uses a prism as well as
the chip meter.

 

[zakezuke]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> I doubt if they still use the prism, why would they? You are right about the
> warranty issue. I would be amazed if chipresetters don't appear very quickly.

Well.. someone on stevesforums was messing with their printer and the
printer was compaining that they didn't have #7s installed, where it
was a ip4200 which clearly called for #8s. But a good reason to
continue using the prism is as a form of failsafe. Chips are only
estimates of ink remaining that can be off for a number of reasons...
like for example if some of the ink leaked out of the cartridge before
you installed it. The prism actually looks for the ink level and will
well when the reservoir is empty and your on the sponge.

 

[Tony]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably the
>> ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
>
>If you mean the ip3000 has been replaced by the ip4200, you could look
>at it that way. I prefer to think of the ip3000 being abandoned. It
>probally cost the same to produce as the ip4000... so pretty dang
>pointless to continue making it.

agreed

>
>> Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years on
>>Canon
>> photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
>
>Yea, and 30 years under glass rather than the older chromalife which
>was rated at 25. There is a new claim of 10 years for other papers not
>the glossy plus but I think those tests were internal to canon. No
>clue what the old standard was... there are times that I thought it was
>a few months.

I am just the messenger, I don't necessarily believe the reports from Canon

>
>> CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I guess
>>that
>> auto duplexing is also supported.
>
>There is a rumor that the CD printing tray has been replaced by tray
>Type C. The ip3000/4000/5000/6000d/8500 used tray type B, where the
>i865 i965 and probally the i905 used tray type a. A to B look
>identical except they moved the alignment reflectors fore of the disc.
> I would appricate it if anyone with a tray type C to take the time and
>scan it and send it to me.
>
>But it looks like unlike the older pixmas the cd slot has rollers
>onboard with a thinner piece of plastic blocking the slot.
>
>> The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment PGI-5BK.
>> The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
>> incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers that allow
>> this) and provide low ink warning.
>
>Refillers can refill the current generation chips past the low ink
>warning. I'm told you get a couple of low ink error messages and
>eventually it will give up and say that "if you continue canon is not
>accountable". I've not seen this message my self but it makes sense,
>and is "somewhat" fair enough. It might lead to a few lawsuits as
>technicaly use of 3rd party ink can't automaticly void the warranty.
>Hopefully there will be chipresetters to keep the ink meter
>operational. Not sure if the new series still uses a prism as well as
>the chip meter.

I doubt if they still use the prism, why would they? You are right about the
warranty issue. I would be amazed if chipresetters don't appear very quickly.
Tony

 

[zakezuke]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> you can not listen to marketing people

You are right, nor should we listen to you either.


Black: 25 ppm (approx. 2.4 seconds/page)*
Color: 17 ppm (approx. 3.5 seconds/page)*
Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
ip4000 and ip5000 specifications.
Note they are the same. This is not to say that the ip4000 isn't
faster than the ip5000 but canon says they are the same.

ip3000
Black: 22 ppm (approx. 2.7 seconds/page)*
Color: 15 ppm (approx. 4 seconds/page)*
Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
ip3000 specifications
Minor speed hit in theory. To be honest I don't notice.

ip4200
Black: 29 ppm (approx. 2.1 seconds per page)*
Color: 20 ppm (approx. 3 seconds per page)*
Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 51 seconds*

ip5200
Black: 30 ppm (approx. 2.0 seconds/page)*
Color: 24 ppm (approx. 2.5 seconds/page)*
Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*

* all numbers quoted directly from http://consumer.usa.canon.com/
All trademarkes owned by someone, void at any time
reprinted without permission

> since the ip5200 is the same speed as the ip4000 and does offer 1pl printer printing
> that does improve text then it is a replacement for the ip4000 and could be called an
> upgraded replacement for the ip4000.

Since when does the ip5200 use 1pl for printing text?
Since when does the ip4000 use 2pl nozzles for printing text?
I mean I don't know for a fact but if you actually look at the numbers
you'll see the pigment black offers 320 nozzles, and the black nozzles
cover a larger area than the color ones. Further we can see that on
the ip4200/ip5000 printhead that we have 1536 nozzles or 384 nozzles
each in a smaller area. I've never counted them but we can assume
there are 256 1pl nozzles and 128 5pl nozzles This is a reasonable
assumption. Assuming that the pigment black nozzles take up three
times the area as the color ones, and assuming there are 128 5pl
nozzles this would be 384 nozzles... so really really close to
320nozzles. I'm not saying that you are wrong but it doesn't make
sense that the 1pl drop size would have ANY affect on text. Someone
correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I have seen NOWHERE that the
minium drop size is used for text.

The ip4200 basicly got the ip5000 head. I'd have to wait to see if the
model number is the same. Canon did this before with the i860 to the
ip4000. The ip5200 got a new head. One could say the ip5000 series
represents new technology where the ip4000 series represents old
technology. And the ip3000 gets abandoned because they ran out of 4
ink printheads.

According to canon, the ip4000 and ip5000 had the same print speed.
Also according to canon both the ip4200 and the ip5200 are faster than
the prior models. Reality may be different but your the one who
"read'em and weep", so I did and according to canon you are wrong, dead
wrong. Now there might be a pcmag revew of these printers that might
yield different results, but these are hardly crediable if they are
testing the printing on different machines.

The ip4200 is the replacement for the ip3000/4000 the entry level
pixmas. The ip5200 is the replacement for the ip5000. It gets more
nozzles which would improve speed and likely image quality.

 

[frank]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

zakezuke wrote:
>>you can not listen to marketing people
>
>
> You are right, nor should we listen to you either.
>
>
> Black: 25 ppm (approx. 2.4 seconds/page)*
> Color: 17 ppm (approx. 3.5 seconds/page)*
> Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
> ip4000 and ip5000 specifications.
> Note they are the same. This is not to say that the ip4000 isn't
> faster than the ip5000 but canon says they are the same.
>
> ip3000
> Black: 22 ppm (approx. 2.7 seconds/page)*
> Color: 15 ppm (approx. 4 seconds/page)*
> Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
> ip3000 specifications
> Minor speed hit in theory. To be honest I don't notice.
>
> ip4200
> Black: 29 ppm (approx. 2.1 seconds per page)*
> Color: 20 ppm (approx. 3 seconds per page)*
> Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 51 seconds*
>
> ip5200
> Black: 30 ppm (approx. 2.0 seconds/page)*
> Color: 24 ppm (approx. 2.5 seconds/page)*
> Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
>
> * all numbers quoted directly from http://consumer.usa.canon.com/
> All trademarkes owned by someone, void at any time
> reprinted without permission
>
>
>>since the ip5200 is the same speed as the ip4000 and does offer 1pl printer printing
>>that does improve text then it is a replacement for the ip4000 and could be called an
>>upgraded replacement for the ip4000.
>
>
> Since when does the ip5200 use 1pl for printing text?
> Since when does the ip4000 use 2pl nozzles for printing text?
> I mean I don't know for a fact but if you actually look at the numbers
> you'll see the pigment black offers 320 nozzles, and the black nozzles
> cover a larger area than the color ones. Further we can see that on
> the ip4200/ip5000 printhead that we have 1536 nozzles or 384 nozzles
> each in a smaller area. I've never counted them but we can assume
> there are 256 1pl nozzles and 128 5pl nozzles This is a reasonable
> assumption. Assuming that the pigment black nozzles take up three
> times the area as the color ones, and assuming there are 128 5pl
> nozzles this would be 384 nozzles... so really really close to
> 320nozzles. I'm not saying that you are wrong but it doesn't make
> sense that the 1pl drop size would have ANY affect on text. Someone
> correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I have seen NOWHERE that the
> minium drop size is used for text.
>
> The ip4200 basicly got the ip5000 head. I'd have to wait to see if the
> model number is the same. Canon did this before with the i860 to the
> ip4000. The ip5200 got a new head. One could say the ip5000 series
> represents new technology where the ip4000 series represents old
> technology. And the ip3000 gets abandoned because they ran out of 4
> ink printheads.
>
> According to canon, the ip4000 and ip5000 had the same print speed.
> Also according to canon both the ip4200 and the ip5200 are faster than
> the prior models. Reality may be different but your the one who
> "read'em and weep", so I did and according to canon you are wrong, dead
> wrong. Now there might be a pcmag revew of these printers that might
> yield different results, but these are hardly crediable if they are
> testing the printing on different machines.
>
> The ip4200 is the replacement for the ip3000/4000 the entry level
> pixmas. The ip5200 is the replacement for the ip5000. It gets more
> nozzles which would improve speed and likely image quality.
>
There are far, far too many numbers in your excellent explanation for
measershithead to even come close to understanding or comprehending.
I do suspect though that he'll understand one symbol, that of a middle
finger held erect. 🙂
Frank

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

BASED ON SPEED AND PRINT QUALITY IT APPEARS THAT THE IP4200 IS AN
UPGRADE FOR THE DISCONTINUED IP3000 AND NOT REALLY A REPLACEMENT OR
UPGRADE FOR THE IP4000. FROM LOOKING AT CANON'S SPECS THE IP5200 IS AN
UPGRADE/REPLACEMENT FOR THE IP4000 BEING FASTER AND BETTER TEXT PRINT
QUALITY AND A DIRECT REPLACEMENT FOR THE IP5000.

BASICALLY IN TERMS OF NOZZLES AND SPEED GOING FROM AN IP4000 TO AN
IP4200 MAY PROVIDE YOU WITH BETTER??? RESULTS AT THE EXPENSE OF PERFORMANCE.

DO NOT LISTEN TO TONY DA TIGER AS HE IS IN DA BUSINESS AND CANNOT BE
TRUSTED.

Tony wrote:

>I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably the
>ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
>The inks are dye based (CLI-8) except for the PGI-5BK pigment black.
>Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years on Canon
>photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
>CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I guess that
>auto duplexing is also supported.
>The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment PGI-5BK.
>The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
>incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers that allow
>this) and provide low ink warning.
>Chip resetters are already being developed.
>
>I have no affiliation with Canon so measekite please keep your garbage where it
>belongs; in your mouth.
>
>Tony
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

zakezuke wrote:

>>I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably the
>>ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
>>
>>
ACCORDING TO PERFORMANCE

P4200 REPLACES THE IP3000
IP5200 REPLACES THE IP4000 AND IP5000

>
>If you mean the ip3000 has been replaced by the ip4200, you could look
>at it that way. I prefer to think of the ip3000 being abandoned. It
>probally cost the same to produce as the ip4000... so pretty dang
>pointless to continue making it.
>
>
>
>>Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years on Canon
>>photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
>>
>>
>
>Yea, and 30 years under glass rather than the older chromalife which
>was rated at 25. There is a new claim of 10 years for other papers not
>the glossy plus but I think those tests were internal to canon. No
>clue what the old standard was... there are times that I thought it was
>a few months.
>
>
>
>> CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I guess that
>>auto duplexing is also supported.
>>
>>
>
>There is a rumor that the CD printing tray has been replaced by tray
>Type C. The ip3000/4000/5000/6000d/8500 used tray type B, where the
>i865 i965 and probally the i905 used tray type a. A to B look
>identical except they moved the alignment reflectors fore of the disc.
> I would appricate it if anyone with a tray type C to take the time and
>scan it and send it to me.
>
>But it looks like unlike the older pixmas the cd slot has rollers
>onboard with a thinner piece of plastic blocking the slot.
>
>
>
>>The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment PGI-5BK.
>>The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
>>incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers that allow
>>this) and provide low ink warning.
>>
>>
>
>Refillers can refill the current generation chips past the low ink
>warning. I'm told you get a couple of low ink error messages and
>eventually it will give up and say that "if you continue canon is not
>accountable". I've not seen this message my self but it makes sense,
>and is "somewhat" fair enough. It might lead to a few lawsuits as
>technicaly use of 3rd party ink can't automaticly void the warranty.
>Hopefully there will be chipresetters to keep the ink meter
>operational. Not sure if the new series still uses a prism as well as
>the chip meter.
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:

>
>
> zakezuke wrote:
>
>>> I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably
>>> the
>>> ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
>>>
>
> ACCORDING TO PERFORMANCE
>
> P4200 REPLACES THE IP3000
> IP5200 REPLACES THE IP4000 AND IP5000
>

WRONG - AS USUAL . . .

According to much more reliable sources than you, the iP4200 replaces
the "iP3000 and iP4000" printers. And my iP5000 is replaced by the
iP5200. Read 'em and weep.

-Taliesyn




>> If you mean the ip3000 has been replaced by the ip4200, you could look
>> at it that way. I prefer to think of the ip3000 being abandoned. It
>> probally cost the same to produce as the ip4000... so pretty dang
>> pointless to continue making it.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years
>>> on Canon
>>> photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yea, and 30 years under glass rather than the older chromalife which
>> was rated at 25. There is a new claim of 10 years for other papers not
>> the glossy plus but I think those tests were internal to canon. No
>> clue what the old standard was... there are times that I thought it was
>> a few months.
>>
>>
>>
>>> CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I
>>> guess that
>>> auto duplexing is also supported.
>>>
>>
>>
>> There is a rumor that the CD printing tray has been replaced by tray
>> Type C. The ip3000/4000/5000/6000d/8500 used tray type B, where the
>> i865 i965 and probally the i905 used tray type a. A to B look
>> identical except they moved the alignment reflectors fore of the disc.
>> I would appricate it if anyone with a tray type C to take the time and
>> scan it and send it to me.
>>
>> But it looks like unlike the older pixmas the cd slot has rollers
>> onboard with a thinner piece of plastic blocking the slot.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment
>>> PGI-5BK.
>>> The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
>>> incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers that
>>> allow
>>> this) and provide low ink warning.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Refillers can refill the current generation chips past the low ink
>> warning. I'm told you get a couple of low ink error messages and
>> eventually it will give up and say that "if you continue canon is not
>> accountable". I've not seen this message my self but it makes sense,
>> and is "somewhat" fair enough. It might lead to a few lawsuits as
>> technicaly use of 3rd party ink can't automaticly void the warranty.
>> Hopefully there will be chipresetters to keep the ink meter
>> operational. Not sure if the new series still uses a prism as well as
>> the chip meter.
>>
>>
>>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Tony wrote:

>"zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably the
>>>ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
>>>
>>>
>>If you mean the ip3000 has been replaced by the ip4200, you could look
>>at it that way. I prefer to think of the ip3000 being abandoned. It
>>probally cost the same to produce as the ip4000... so pretty dang
>>pointless to continue making it.
>>
>>
>
>agreed
>
>

CAN YOU BELIEVE TONY DA TIGER IS IN DA BUSINESS. WHO CAN BELIEVE WHAT
HE SAYS.

>
>
>>>Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years on
>>>Canon
>>>photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
>>>
>>>
>>Yea, and 30 years under glass rather than the older chromalife which
>>was rated at 25. There is a new claim of 10 years for other papers not
>>the glossy plus but I think those tests were internal to canon. No
>>clue what the old standard was... there are times that I thought it was
>>a few months.
>>
>>
>
>I am just the messenger, I don't necessarily believe the reports from Canon
>
>

I DO

>
>
>>> CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I guess
>>>that
>>>auto duplexing is also supported.
>>>
>>>
>>There is a rumor that the CD printing tray has been replaced by tray
>>Type C. The ip3000/4000/5000/6000d/8500 used tray type B, where the
>>i865 i965 and probally the i905 used tray type a. A to B look
>>identical except they moved the alignment reflectors fore of the disc.
>>I would appricate it if anyone with a tray type C to take the time and
>>scan it and send it to me.
>>
>>But it looks like unlike the older pixmas the cd slot has rollers
>>onboard with a thinner piece of plastic blocking the slot.
>>
>>
>>
>>>The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment PGI-5BK.
>>>The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
>>>incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers that allow
>>>this) and provide low ink warning.
>>>
>>>
>>Refillers can refill the current generation chips past the low ink
>>warning. I'm told you get a couple of low ink error messages and
>>eventually it will give up and say that "if you continue canon is not
>>accountable". I've not seen this message my self but it makes sense,
>>and is "somewhat" fair enough. It might lead to a few lawsuits as
>>technicaly use of 3rd party ink can't automaticly void the warranty.
>>Hopefully there will be chipresetters to keep the ink meter
>>operational. Not sure if the new series still uses a prism as well as
>>the chip meter.
>>
>>
>
>I doubt if they still use the prism, why would they? You are right about the
>warranty issue. I would be amazed if chipresetters don't appear very quickly.
>Tony
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <jIiZe.6350$6e1.4749@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
inkystinky@oem.com says...
> DO NOT LISTEN TO TONY DA TIGER AS HE IS IN DA BUSINESS AND CANNOT BE
> TRUSTED.
>
Based on this kind of thinking, we should not listen to Canon, as they
are REALLY "in da business"! What a doofus!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Taliesyn wrote:

> measekite wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> zakezuke wrote:
>>
>>>> I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and
>>>> probably the
>>>> ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> ACCORDING TO PERFORMANCE
>>
>> P4200 REPLACES THE IP3000
>> IP5200 REPLACES THE IP4000 AND IP5000
>>
>
> WRONG - AS USUAL . . .
>
> According to much more reliable sources than you, the iP4200 replaces
> the "iP3000 and iP4000" printers. And my iP5000 is replaced by the
> iP5200. Read 'em and weep.
>
> -Taliesyn


incorrect. YOU CANNOT LISTEN TO MARKETING PEOPLE. READ THE SPEC. READ
THE SPEED. AND YOU WILL FIND OUT THAT THE IP4200 IS FAR SLOWER THAN THE
IP4000. SO YOU GAIN 1 PL FOR TEXT PRINTING AND LOOSE PERFORMANCE. I
WOULD SAY THAT IT IS AN UPGRADED REPLACEMENT FOR THE IP3000.

SINCE THE IP5200 IS THE SAME SPEED AS THE IP4000 AND DOES OFFER 1PL
PRINTING THAT DOES IMPROVE TEXT THEN IT IS A REPLACEMENT FOR THE IP4000
AND COULD BE CALLED AN UPGRADED REPLACEMENT FOR THE IP4000. IT ALSO IS
A REPLACEMENT FOR THE IP5000 IN THAT THE INK IS CLAIMED TO BE BETTER.

READ'EM AND WEEP

>
>
>
>
>>> If you mean the ip3000 has been replaced by the ip4200, you could look
>>> at it that way. I prefer to think of the ip3000 being abandoned. It
>>> probally cost the same to produce as the ip4000... so pretty dang
>>> pointless to continue making it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100
>>>> years on Canon
>>>> photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yea, and 30 years under glass rather than the older chromalife which
>>> was rated at 25. There is a new claim of 10 years for other papers not
>>> the glossy plus but I think those tests were internal to canon. No
>>> clue what the old standard was... there are times that I thought it was
>>> a few months.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> CD and DVD printing is supported, except probably in the USA; and I
>>>> guess that
>>>> auto duplexing is also supported.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a rumor that the CD printing tray has been replaced by tray
>>> Type C. The ip3000/4000/5000/6000d/8500 used tray type B, where the
>>> i865 i965 and probally the i905 used tray type a. A to B look
>>> identical except they moved the alignment reflectors fore of the disc.
>>> I would appricate it if anyone with a tray type C to take the time and
>>> scan it and send it to me.
>>>
>>> But it looks like unlike the older pixmas the cd slot has rollers
>>> onboard with a thinner piece of plastic blocking the slot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The ink tanks are chipped and available in BCMY plus the pigment
>>>> PGI-5BK.
>>>> The chips are designed to alert the user if they are installed into an
>>>> incorrect position in the carriage (yes there are some printers
>>>> that allow
>>>> this) and provide low ink warning.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Refillers can refill the current generation chips past the low ink
>>> warning. I'm told you get a couple of low ink error messages and
>>> eventually it will give up and say that "if you continue canon is not
>>> accountable". I've not seen this message my self but it makes sense,
>>> and is "somewhat" fair enough. It might lead to a few lawsuits as
>>> technicaly use of 3rd party ink can't automaticly void the warranty.
>>> Hopefully there will be chipresetters to keep the ink meter
>>> operational. Not sure if the new series still uses a prism as well as
>>> the chip meter.
>>>
>>>
>>>

 

[zakezuke]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> I think they slow down the printers for the brits to match their mind

Two points

1. I am not british
2. The numbers I quoted I clearly indicated as being from
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/

Now... it's true that numbers for a4 paper are going to be a little
different than those for letter, but they are so close there is
typicaly less than a 1 percent difference. But as we no doubt observed
the basic printer model is the same for all markets save a config
change which can be done in service mode, and sometimes a different
power supply and software compiment. Oh and cd printing is disabled in
the Americas.

Now let's look at the speeds for a moment
Which btw i've been able to establish they're talking about draft mode.


ip3000 Black: 22 ppm -
ip4000/5000 Black: 25 ppm -
ip4200 Black: 29 ppm -
ip5200 Black: 30 ppm -

Let's assume a 500p yield from the ink tanks.
ip3000 00:22:44
ip4000 00:20:00
ip5000 ' '
ip4200 00:17:25
ip5200 00:16:40

keep in mind that the max you can store in the printer at any given
time is 150 sheets in each tray IIRC. Perhaps you can get away with
auto select source and print more than 150 sheets at a time.

Assuming 150 sheets and 300 sheets
ip3000 00:06:49 00:13:38
ip4000 00:06:00 00:12:00
ip/5000 ' ' ' '
ip4200 00:05:10 00:10:20
ip5200 00:05:00 00:10:00

Obvious factors such as service life enter into the picture as well,
and the paper reloading, and the cartridge changing. Assuming the
service life of the printer is 10 cartridge changes well... I can see
where one could save about 60 min if one were to ditch the ip3000 in
favor of the ip5200 not including cartridge changes, paper reloading.
Head and printer replacement well unless you had a spare handy might
take a little longer lowering your effective PPM.

measekite statemetn
"you will find out that the ip4200 is far slower than the ip4000"

I have no real world tests to go by, only the canon numbers they
provided. But I see it's at least faster in draft mode. Now if you
have a review of the ip4200 i'd be happy to read it, but the only
evidence available, canon's specs, i.e. the stuff you asked us to look
at says the ip4200 is faster than the ip4000 by 50seconds per 150
sheets. Not that this matters in reality as the yield is so small,
like 40min of useful service life or so. Such heavy users who would
notice an improvement would likely be interested in a laser or
something with a more useful service life than 7,200 pages
1,500char/page.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I THINK THEY SLOW DOWN THE PRINTERS FOR THE BRITS TO BETTER MATCH THEIR
MIND.

MATT ZAKOWSKI TIME

zakezuke wrote:

>>you can not listen to marketing people
>>
>>
>
>You are right, nor should we listen to you either.
>
>
>Black: 25 ppm (approx. 2.4 seconds/page)*
>Color: 17 ppm (approx. 3.5 seconds/page)*
>Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
>ip4000 and ip5000 specifications.
>Note they are the same. This is not to say that the ip4000 isn't
>faster than the ip5000 but canon says they are the same.
>
>ip3000
>Black: 22 ppm (approx. 2.7 seconds/page)*
>Color: 15 ppm (approx. 4 seconds/page)*
>Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
>ip3000 specifications
>Minor speed hit in theory. To be honest I don't notice.
>
>ip4200
>Black: 29 ppm (approx. 2.1 seconds per page)*
>Color: 20 ppm (approx. 3 seconds per page)*
>Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 51 seconds*
>
>ip5200
>Black: 30 ppm (approx. 2.0 seconds/page)*
>Color: 24 ppm (approx. 2.5 seconds/page)*
>Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
>
>* all numbers quoted directly from http://consumer.usa.canon.com/
> All trademarkes owned by someone, void at any time
> reprinted without permission
>
>
>
>>since the ip5200 is the same speed as the ip4000 and does offer 1pl printer printing
>>that does improve text then it is a replacement for the ip4000 and could be called an
>>upgraded replacement for the ip4000.
>>
>>
>
>Since when does the ip5200 use 1pl for printing text?
>Since when does the ip4000 use 2pl nozzles for printing text?
>I mean I don't know for a fact but if you actually look at the numbers
>you'll see the pigment black offers 320 nozzles, and the black nozzles
>cover a larger area than the color ones. Further we can see that on
>the ip4200/ip5000 printhead that we have 1536 nozzles or 384 nozzles
>each in a smaller area. I've never counted them but we can assume
>there are 256 1pl nozzles and 128 5pl nozzles This is a reasonable
>assumption. Assuming that the pigment black nozzles take up three
>times the area as the color ones, and assuming there are 128 5pl
>nozzles this would be 384 nozzles... so really really close to
>320nozzles. I'm not saying that you are wrong but it doesn't make
>sense that the 1pl drop size would have ANY affect on text. Someone
>correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I have seen NOWHERE that the
>minium drop size is used for text.
>
>The ip4200 basicly got the ip5000 head. I'd have to wait to see if the
>model number is the same. Canon did this before with the i860 to the
>ip4000. The ip5200 got a new head. One could say the ip5000 series
>represents new technology where the ip4000 series represents old
>technology. And the ip3000 gets abandoned because they ran out of 4
>ink printheads.
>
>According to canon, the ip4000 and ip5000 had the same print speed.
>Also according to canon both the ip4200 and the ip5200 are faster than
>the prior models. Reality may be different but your the one who
>"read'em and weep", so I did and according to canon you are wrong, dead
>wrong. Now there might be a pcmag revew of these printers that might
>yield different results, but these are hardly crediable if they are
>testing the printing on different machines.
>
>The ip4200 is the replacement for the ip3000/4000 the entry level
>pixmas. The ip5200 is the replacement for the ip5000. It gets more
>nozzles which would improve speed and likely image quality.
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Frank wrote:

> zakezuke wrote:
>
>>> you can not listen to marketing people
>>
>>
>>
>> You are right, nor should we listen to you either.
>>
>>
>> Black: 25 ppm (approx. 2.4 seconds/page)*
>> Color: 17 ppm (approx. 3.5 seconds/page)*
>> Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
>> ip4000 and ip5000 specifications.
>> Note they are the same. This is not to say that the ip4000 isn't
>> faster than the ip5000 but canon says they are the same.
>>
>> ip3000
>> Black: 22 ppm (approx. 2.7 seconds/page)*
>> Color: 15 ppm (approx. 4 seconds/page)*
>> Color Photo: 4x6 borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
>> ip3000 specifications
>> Minor speed hit in theory. To be honest I don't notice.
>>
>> ip4200
>> Black: 29 ppm (approx. 2.1 seconds per page)*
>> Color: 20 ppm (approx. 3 seconds per page)*
>> Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 51 seconds*
>>
>> ip5200
>> Black: 30 ppm (approx. 2.0 seconds/page)*
>> Color: 24 ppm (approx. 2.5 seconds/page)*
>> Color Photo: 4" x 6" borderless photo: approx. 36 seconds*
>>
>> * all numbers quoted directly from http://consumer.usa.canon.com/
>> All trademarkes owned by someone, void at any time
>> reprinted without permission
>>
>>
>>> since the ip5200 is the same speed as the ip4000 and does offer 1pl
>>> printer printing
>>> that does improve text then it is a replacement for the ip4000 and
>>> could be called an
>>> upgraded replacement for the ip4000.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since when does the ip5200 use 1pl for printing text?
>> Since when does the ip4000 use 2pl nozzles for printing text?
>> I mean I don't know for a fact but if you actually look at the numbers
>> you'll see the pigment black offers 320 nozzles, and the black nozzles
>> cover a larger area than the color ones. Further we can see that on
>> the ip4200/ip5000 printhead that we have 1536 nozzles or 384 nozzles
>> each in a smaller area. I've never counted them but we can assume
>> there are 256 1pl nozzles and 128 5pl nozzles This is a reasonable
>> assumption. Assuming that the pigment black nozzles take up three
>> times the area as the color ones, and assuming there are 128 5pl
>> nozzles this would be 384 nozzles... so really really close to
>> 320nozzles. I'm not saying that you are wrong but it doesn't make
>> sense that the 1pl drop size would have ANY affect on text. Someone
>> correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I have seen NOWHERE that the
>> minium drop size is used for text.
>>
>> The ip4200 basicly got the ip5000 head. I'd have to wait to see if the
>> model number is the same. Canon did this before with the i860 to the
>> ip4000. The ip5200 got a new head. One could say the ip5000 series
>> represents new technology where the ip4000 series represents old
>> technology. And the ip3000 gets abandoned because they ran out of 4
>> ink printheads.
>>
>> According to canon, the ip4000 and ip5000 had the same print speed.
>> Also according to canon both the ip4200 and the ip5200 are faster than
>> the prior models. Reality may be different but your the one who
>> "read'em and weep", so I did and according to canon you are wrong, dead
>> wrong. Now there might be a pcmag revew of these printers that might
>> yield different results, but these are hardly crediable if they are
>> testing the printing on different machines.
>>
>> The ip4200 is the replacement for the ip3000/4000 the entry level
>> pixmas. The ip5200 is the replacement for the ip5000. It gets more
>> nozzles which would improve speed and likely image quality.
>>
> There are far, far too many numbers in your excellent explanation for
> me the shithead to even come close to understanding or comprehending.
> I do suspect though that I 'll understand one symbol, that of a middle
> finger held erect. 🙂
> Frankes erectis

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Irwin Peckinloomer wrote:

>In article <jIiZe.6350$6e1.4749@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
>inkystinky@oem.com says...
>
>
>>DO NOT LISTEN TO TONY DA TIGER AS HE IS IN DA BUSINESS AND CANNOT BE
>>TRUSTED.
>>
>>
>>
>Based on this kind of thinking, we should not listen to Canon, as they
>are REALLY "in da business"! What a doofus!
>
>

YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO YOUR PECKER BLOOMER

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127540943.052251.100890@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> I understand that the ip4200 (replacement for the ip4000 and probably the
>> ip3000) has a 1 picolitre printhead.
>
> If you mean the ip3000 has been replaced by the ip4200, you could look
> at it that way. I prefer to think of the ip3000 being abandoned. It
> probally cost the same to produce as the ip4000... so pretty dang
> pointless to continue making it.
>
>> Canon claim that the new Chromalife 100 ink will last up to 100 years on
>> Canon
>> photographic paper if stored in an archival photo album.
>
> Yea, and 30 years under glass rather than the older chromalife which
> was rated at 25. There is a new claim of 10 years for other papers not
> the glossy plus but I think those tests were internal to canon. No
> clue what the old standard was... there are times that I thought it was
> a few months.
>

And if you look at the actual conditions they test under you will find they
are not particularly rigorous. I was very disappointed to read the fineprint
on this one, and it's interesting that Canon do not submit to Wilhelm
testing.

 

[zakezuke]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> ok da poles

What is your point. Polish printers are slower? I don't think so.
You are full of it. You see you tried to say was that british printers
were slower, which is not true. A4 paper might be lightly longer which
would affect print times but 17.6mm. But the printer speed is the
same.

Now if you have any data to back up your statement that the ip4200 is
slower than the ip4000 i'd be happy to see it. Hell I would enjoy
seeing any data sugesting that the ip4000 is faster then ip5000.

Things you seem to be wrong on

1. The ip4000 is faster than the ip4200 and ip5000
2. Text is better with 1pl print heads

 

[davy]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> zakezukewrote:

Ih btw i've been able to
establish they're talking about draft mode.
>
>
> ip3000 Black: 22 ppm -
> ip4000/5000 Black: 25 ppm -
> ip4200 Black: 29 ppm -
> ip5200 Black: 30 ppm -
>
> Let's assume a 500p yield from the ink tanks.
> ip3000 00:22:44
> ip4000 00:20:00
> ip5000 ' '
> ip4200 00:17:25
> ip5200 00:16:40
>
>
> Assuming 150 sheets and 300 sheets
> ip3000 00:06:49 00:13:38
> ip4000 00:06:00 00:12:00
> ip/5000 ' ' ' '
> ip4200 00:05:10 00:10:20
> ip5200 00:05:00 00:10:00
>
>
>

A fat lot of difference in the PPM print speed, er how long will it
take to print the work of Shakingspear... oops sorry
Shakespear....er Britannica Encylopedia ... any ideas how many ink
tanks I'll need ?

Davy

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

LOOK AT HOW MUCH MATT ZAKOWSKI LIKES TO WRITE

zakezuke wrote:

>>I think they slow down the printers for the brits to match their mind
>>
>>
>
>Two points
>
>1. I am not british
>
>
OK DA POLES

>2. The numbers I quoted I clearly indicated as being from
>http://consumer.usa.canon.com/
>
>Now... it's true that numbers for a4 paper are going to be a little
>different than those for letter, but they are so close there is
>typicaly less than a 1 percent difference. But as we no doubt observed
>the basic printer model is the same for all markets save a config
>change which can be done in service mode, and sometimes a different
>power supply and software compiment. Oh and cd printing is disabled in
>the Americas.
>
>Now let's look at the speeds for a moment
>Which btw i've been able to establish they're talking about draft mode.
>
>
>ip3000 Black: 22 ppm -
>ip4000/5000 Black: 25 ppm -
>ip4200 Black: 29 ppm -
>ip5200 Black: 30 ppm -
>
>Let's assume a 500p yield from the ink tanks.
>ip3000 00:22:44
>ip4000 00:20:00
>ip5000 ' '
>ip4200 00:17:25
>ip5200 00:16:40
>
>keep in mind that the max you can store in the printer at any given
>time is 150 sheets in each tray IIRC. Perhaps you can get away with
>auto select source and print more than 150 sheets at a time.
>
>Assuming 150 sheets and 300 sheets
>ip3000 00:06:49 00:13:38
>ip4000 00:06:00 00:12:00
>ip/5000 ' ' ' '
>ip4200 00:05:10 00:10:20
>ip5200 00:05:00 00:10:00
>
>Obvious factors such as service life enter into the picture as well,
>and the paper reloading, and the cartridge changing. Assuming the
>service life of the printer is 10 cartridge changes well... I can see
>where one could save about 60 min if one were to ditch the ip3000 in
>favor of the ip5200 not including cartridge changes, paper reloading.
>Head and printer replacement well unless you had a spare handy might
>take a little longer lowering your effective PPM.
>
>measekite statemetn
>"you will find out that the ip4200 is far slower than the ip4000"
>
>I have no real world tests to go by, only the canon numbers they
>provided. But I see it's at least faster in draft mode. Now if you
>have a review of the ip4200 i'd be happy to read it, but the only
>evidence available, canon's specs, i.e. the stuff you asked us to look
>at says the ip4200 is faster than the ip4000 by 50seconds per 150
>sheets. Not that this matters in reality as the yield is so small,
>like 40min of useful service life or so. Such heavy users who would
>notice an improvement would likely be interested in a laser or
>something with a more useful service life than 7,200 pages
>1,500char/page.
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>>
>> The ip4200 is the replacement for the ip3000/4000 the entry level
>> pixmas. The ip5200 is the replacement for the ip5000. It gets more
>> nozzles which would improve speed and likely image quality.
>>
> There are far, far too many numbers in your excellent explanation for
> measershithead to even come close to understanding or comprehending.
> I do suspect though that he'll understand one symbol, that of a middle
> finger held erect. 🙂
> Frank


From a technological standpoint your reasoning is sound but from a marketing
point maybe not.

For the ip4200 to replace both the 3000 and the 4000 what should its price
point be? On a technological standpoint it is better than either so
obviously should cost more than either. On the other hand what do canon
have at the 3000 price point? One solution may be to price the 4200 between
the 3000 and 4000. I think comparing end of line prices may be misleading.
At the time of release what was the price of the 3000 and 4000? I think at
release in england the 4000 went for £149. It eventually dropped to £129
and stayed there. Towards the end of its life it dropped to 99.99 and then
there were rebate offers on top. I see one vendor selling for £118.99. It
depends on the 3000 prices to determine how good this is as a between 3000
and 4000. However at the moment it already looks good.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Davy" <davecoe@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:kzyZe.121708$_D6.89871@fe01.news.easynews.com...
>> zakezukewrote:
>

Ih btw i've been able to
> establish they're talking about draft mode.
>>
>>
>> ip3000 Black: 22 ppm -
>> ip4000/5000 Black: 25 ppm -
>> ip4200 Black: 29 ppm -
>> ip5200 Black: 30 ppm -
>>
>> Let's assume a 500p yield from the ink tanks.
>> ip3000 00:22:44
>> ip4000 00:20:00
>> ip5000 ' '
>> ip4200 00:17:25
>> ip5200 00:16:40
>>
>>
>> Assuming 150 sheets and 300 sheets
>> ip3000 00:06:49 00:13:38
>> ip4000 00:06:00 00:12:00
>> ip/5000 ' ' ' '
>> ip4200 00:05:10 00:10:20
>> ip5200 00:05:00 00:10:00
>>
>>
>>
>
> A fat lot of difference in the PPM print speed, er how long will it
> take to print the work of Shakingspear... oops sorry
> Shakespear....er Britannica Encylopedia ... any ideas how many ink
> tanks I'll need ?

I think Toms Hardware was the first online review that said 'take the
manufacturers speed rating and then halve it'. Computer magazines have been
saying that for longer. AT best it is a very small amount of text, it is in
draft mode and the computer delay between clicking print and actual printing
isn't included.

 

[zakezuke]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> > Hell I would enjoy
> >seeing any data sugesting that the ip4000 is faster then ip5000.

> if you do not know that then you are really dumber than I give you credit for

Sure.... i'm so dumb because I took the time to visit the canon usa
site and read the speed specs, which are often best case scenero
printing 1500chars in draft mode and saw that they were the same for
black and color text and some how I'm dumb.

Righto.

>>1. The ip4000 is faster than the ip4200 and ip5000
>read the canon site specs

I did. Both say black 25ppm 17ppm color. ip4200 reads as 29/20
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=117&modelid=10439
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=117&modelid=10239

Anyone who reads this sentance and taks the time to visit canon usa's
website will read the same thing, and see that the ip4000 and ip5000
are the same speed according to canon.

Unless you mean boardless photo speed rating, but you were not very
specific.

> >2. Text is better with 1pl print heads
> read pcmag review

There is NO pcmag review of the ip4200 that I can see. Searching for
ip4200 results in search tips cause it's not found. I asked a legit
question, how does 1pl heads help text if they are not used in the
black nozzles? This is not covered on this site.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1725812,00.asp

> without joking, matt why are you so damn stupid.

Because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them stupid. You
should know better. This is a form of emotional manipluation insecure
people use in order to get other weak minded people to agree with you,
and it is wrong.

I read your statement and it didn't sound correct, so I took it upon my
self to visit the canon usa site and read the specs for my self and for
the most part the ip4000 and ip5000 were identical with the exception
of 4x6. So your statement of the ip4000 being signifigantly faster
seemed to be a lie so I called you on it. You could have at any time
linked to a site that supported your position if you actually knew how
to cut and paste urls.

But respectfully I took your advice and looked for a pcmag review of
the ip4200 and I can't find one. I looked for references to how 1pl
heads improve text and I didn't see any. I must conclude that you are
blind for yet again lying. Not that you have any credability in the
first place. And with the upmost respect, I'm not the moron who was
trying to point out that my information was flawd because I was quoting
the european specs when I was clearly pointing out the North American
specs.

Pcmag is pretty worthless. For example they say in their ip5000 review
that "Significantly, the iP5000 offers even better-quality text and
graphics than the iP4000". Graphics I can see, it is after all higher
resolution. Text I can not see.
http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20041025/printer-09.html
Both the ip4000 and ip5000 have 320 black nozzles. They take up the
same area so this would sugest that they are the same size. I fail to
see how M. David Stone the writer of the ip5000 review could even
sugest the ip5000 offered better text. In my eyes at 4point they look
the same, in reality and on toms hardware. Only stupid people read
pcmag and take what they say on face value, often times they are just
talking out their ass. Morons see the 1pl and assume this would
improve text when in reality is there 1pl nozzles for the pigment
black? Are there?

I await you to toss me a link to another worthless site I can debunk
with ease.

The ip4000 and ip5000 operate at roughly the same speed according to
canon with the only exception being 4x6 photo. But as you made no
reference to under what conditions the ip4000 was faster... well i'm
not the one being stupid.

Perhaps we need to actually get out of our chair and actually evaluate
what the websites say for them self before making statements. It would
help you to apear far less foolish in the future.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <aQqZe.3842$Ba2.1467@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
inkystinky@oem.com says...
>
>
> Irwin Peckinloomer wrote:
>
> >In article <jIiZe.6350$6e1.4749@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
> >inkystinky@oem.com says...
> >
> >
> >>DO NOT LISTEN TO TONY DA TIGER AS HE IS IN DA BUSINESS AND CANNOT BE
> >>TRUSTED.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Based on this kind of thinking, we should not listen to Canon, as they
> >are REALLY "in da business"! What a doofus!
> >
> >
>
> YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO YOUR PECKER BLOOMER
>
Sorry, I guess that's just way too technical to make sense to me.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <1127634018.177893.130470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
zakezuke_us@yahoo.com says...
> > I think they slow down the printers for the brits to match their mind
>
> Two points
>
> 1. I am not british
(snip)

Don't be offended, measely thinks anyone who can write in English is
British.