Caster's Realm: The Story of 69 and 70 Runes

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Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that casters
>> > > > can't get the best spells without killing things.
>> > >
>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>> >
>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
>> > best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >
>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if
>> > I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
>> > far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>>
>> I'll admit I don't know the high-level game yet, but I think the
>> argument is that casters do NOT have a huge variety of NEW spells
>> at, say, level 70. The comparison would be to imagine if there
>> were about a dozen items that are specifically available to a
>> Warrior at required level 70, available only as rare drops and/or
>> from raids, and at least, oh, 4-6 of those items make a huge
>> difference to the effectiveness of the Warrior compared to any
>> other items they might have. Usually, for the melees, they can
>> find other gear that gives them a significant fraction of the same
>> effectiveness.
>
> You are so backwards in this perspective that I really can't imagine
> changing your way of thinking.
>
> For warriors at elemental level, there is *one* sword. For warriors
> at Time level, there is *one* sword. Yeah, they can be a lesser
> warrior and settle for an alternative *lesser* sword, but then, the
> spells I had cast on me at 65 are still just as effective at level 70.
>
>> Thus, a melee type can go a variety of places and
>> end up with, if not the most effective gear, at least something
>> that comes close, whereas a caster who doesn't spend an eternity
>> in the rune-dropping zones will never come anywhere close to being as
>> effective as a caster who's managed to get the spell drops.
>
> Define "anywhere close". Virtue still gives me a lot of hp. Vallon's
> Quickening still puts me at the haste cap. Focus still maxes my
> stats. Wizards still crit for nearly 10k with the old nukes. Hell, I
> get kei on my pocket cleric because it lasts longer and I don't *need*
> Clairvoyance.

I do agree that as far as most of the buffs are concerned, the spells are
just nice to have, not all that essential. There are a few spells that
make a huge difference to what the caster can take on, both with a group
and solo, that there is no other method of obtaining. The high level
enchanter mez is one that comes to mind immediately, the new shaman
heals, particularly the Heal over time, off hand I don't know for sure
what others for other classes, but there are likely one or two for each
class that really make a huge difference. For a warrior, it doesn't
really matter if they are using a BoC, or a DoN sword with a basically
identical effect.

>
>> I can't speak to how accurate this perception is, but have I at least
>> gotten the argument straight?
>
> Your argument is straight. Your perception is highly skewed. =)
>

I can see both sides of the arguement personally. In the end, the guild
I am in has chosen to treat the runes as standard loot for the most part,
and I have no real issues with that.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrnda10m8.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <wrat@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <slrnd9urnt.2n5.faned@wyld.qx.net>,
>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
>> >"Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
>> >best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >
>> >Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if I
>> >had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
>> >far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>>
>> Ok, suppose to get that blade of carnage you needed to win the
>> rolls on 15
>> other rare drops 12 of which were more or less useless to you?
>
> Now you're arguing about useless spells. Completely different
> argument, and not a very good basis to argue that spells aren't
> "loot". Wanna know how many times I've spent "points" to get an item
> and ended up spending yet more points to upgrade that item the very
> next week? Due to my playstyle, far more than I should have. =)
>
>> Now, let's add the fact that if I *don't* get the BoC I can
>> buy a perfectly good 1HS in the bazaar and run a few dozen DoN's to
>> buy augments that will make it as good as or better than that BoC,
>> but the poor casters are still endlessly camping for their runes...
>
> You're also speaking from a perspective that really doesn't make much
> sense to me. Anybody who is level 70 can buy half a dozen blades of
> carnage and have money left over, or should be able to at least. The
> non-raiders should have even more money, in spite of needing to spend
> more. I don't get much time to grind (and don't care for grinding
> anyway, thus my playstyle choice). But I know how much money I can
> make when I grind, so I know how much money every other level 70 has
> had and still has the opportunity to make.
>
> I have two twinks with BoCs. One is a ranger. =P
>
> The other reason your perspective doesn't make much sense to me is
> that casters simply *don't go* to the rune-dropping spots to grind.
> There can't be a great deal of demand. I know this because I've
> lamented the lack of an enchanter, druid, cleric, shaman while trying
> to get one of my rare grind sessions in these spots, while seeing half
> a dozen of them lfg in WoS.
>

I'd love to hit the rune dropping spots (glowing only at this point)
myself, I am just finding it impossible to get a group going to hit them,
everyone wants to do DoN or WoS, or MPG (where glowing runes can
theoretically drop, but for all practical purposes do not).

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:

>Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

>> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that casters
>>> > > > can't get the best spells without killing things.
>>> > >
>>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
>>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
>>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
>>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>>> >
>>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
>>> > best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>>> >
>>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if
>>> > I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
>>> > far too often (in life as well as in the game).

Coming into this thread a little late, but...

Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop
working on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...
I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.

 

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<mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
>
> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>
> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that casters
> >>> > > > can't get the best spells without killing things.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
> >>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
> >>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
> >>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
> >>> >
> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with the
> >>> > best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
> >>> >
> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would if
> >>> > I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see displayed
> >>> > far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>
> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
>
> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
> or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop
> working on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...

In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the only
class that didn't have *something* that was level limited anyway.

> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
> have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
> repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
> at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
> upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.

Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in the same
manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't). Mere days into the
release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric had several spells, but my
main monk had yet to get any sort of upgrade. Now months after the release
my pocket cleric and pocket shaman have all their 66-68 spells, as well as
multiple gear upgrades (being alts they had a lower bar on equipment),
whereas I have a single upgrade from the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am
still lacking my 69 disc (have a streak of more than 50 lost rolls on a
level 69 rune, I think I'm about to set a record).

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrndabbic.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
>>
>> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>>
>> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that
>> >>> > > > casters can't get the best spells without killing things.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
>> >>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
>> >>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
>> >>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with
>> >>> > the best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would
>> >>> > if I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see
>> >>> > displayed far too often (in life as well as in the game).
>>
>> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
>>
>> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
>> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
>> or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop working
>> on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...
>
> In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the
> only class that didn't have *something* that was level limited anyway.
>
>> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
>> have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
>> repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
>> at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
>> upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.
>
> Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in the
> same manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't). Mere days
> into the release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric had several
> spells, but my main monk had yet to get any sort of upgrade. Now
> months after the release my pocket cleric and pocket shaman have all
> their 66-68 spells, as well as multiple gear upgrades (being alts they
> had a lower bar on equipment), whereas I have a single upgrade from
> the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am still lacking my 69 disc (have a
> streak of more than 50 lost rolls on a level 69 rune, I think I'm
> about to set a record).
>

The problem is, it's exactly some of those 69/70 spells that are needed
in order to once again be able to have a spell that works at that level.

I had been running quite a streak on the 70 runes myself, but at least I
have my level 70 HoT now, which makes a huge difference in my ability to
heal.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

<RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> news:slrndabbic.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>
> > <mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
> >> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
> >>
> >> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
> >> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
> >>
> >> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
> >> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
> >> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
> >> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that
> >> >>> > > > casters can't get the best spells without killing things.
> >> >>> > >
> >> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons and
> >> >>> > > armor available to them, with the best ones coming from high
> >> >>> > > level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the same way.
> >> >>> > > Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them, with
> >> >>> > the best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it would
> >> >>> > if I had one of those false senses of entitlement that I see
> >> >>> > displayed far too often (in life as well as in the game).
> >>
> >> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
> >>
> >> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
> >> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might mitigate
> >> or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally stop working
> >> on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez, etc...
> >
> > In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the
> > only class that didn't have *something* that was level limited anyway.
> >
> >> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they always
> >> have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is unaffected"
> >> repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is now worthless
> >> at that level. For gear, you are still getting those stat and hp
> >> upgrades, and that sword you have will still do some damage.
> >
> > Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in the
> > same manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't). Mere days
> > into the release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric had several
> > spells, but my main monk had yet to get any sort of upgrade. Now
> > months after the release my pocket cleric and pocket shaman have all
> > their 66-68 spells, as well as multiple gear upgrades (being alts they
> > had a lower bar on equipment), whereas I have a single upgrade from
> > the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am still lacking my 69 disc (have a
> > streak of more than 50 lost rolls on a level 69 rune, I think I'm
> > about to set a record).
> >
>
> The problem is, it's exactly some of those 69/70 spells that are needed
> in order to once again be able to have a spell that works at that level.

I believe that applies to a single spell. For all the others, there are
alternatives. Yeah, not as good, but if they were why would you bother to
keep trying for the better one.

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
news:slrndabf8n.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:

> <RichardRapier@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>> news:slrndabbic.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>>
>> > <mpp@mail.mppsystems.com> wrote:
>> >> Graeme Faelban <RichardRapier@netscape.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >> >Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> wrote in
>> >> >news:slrnda0pof.76m.faned@wyld.qx.net:
>> >>
>> >> >> <don-ns@iCynic.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> Faned <faned@wyld.qx.net> writes:
>> >> >>> > > > Also - just like warriors and knights can't get the best
>> >> >>> > > > weapons without killing things, this makes it so that
>> >> >>> > > > casters can't get the best spells without killing
>> >> >>> > > > things.
>> >> >>> > >
>> >> >>> > > Flawed comparison. Melee have a huge variety of weapons
>> >> >>> > > and armor available to them, with the best ones coming
>> >> >>> > > from high level raid mobs. Casters get their gear the
>> >> >>> > > same way. Spell are an entirely different ball of wax.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > "Casters have a huge variety of spells available to them,
>> >> >>> > with the best ones coming from high level raid mobs."
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > Doesn't sound all that different to me. I guess maybe it
>> >> >>> > would if I had one of those false senses of entitlement that
>> >> >>> > I see displayed far too often (in life as well as in the
>> >> >>> > game).
>> >>
>> >> Coming into this thread a little late, but...
>> >>
>> >> Your gear doesn't all of a sudden stop working when you go into
>> >> a higher level zone. Yes, some of your weapon procs might
>> >> mitigate or be resisted. But for spells, some of those totally
>> >> stop working on mobs higher than level X. Can't harmony/paci/mez,
>> >> etc...
>> >
>> > In the process of being changed as we speak. And warriors are the
>> > only class that didn't have *something* that was level limited
>> > anyway.
>> >
>> >> I'm guessing all your discs still function pretty much as they
>> >> always have. But casting on a mob and seeing "your target is
>> >> unaffected" repeatly really bites, because that spell you have is
>> >> now worthless at that level. For gear, you are still getting
>> >> those stat and hp upgrades, and that sword you have will still do
>> >> some damage.
>> >
>> > Valid argument if, and only if, *all* your spells are acquired in
>> > the same manner as 69/70 spells (which of course they aren't).
>> > Mere days into the release of the OoW expansion my pocket cleric
>> > had several spells, but my main monk had yet to get any sort of
>> > upgrade. Now months after the release my pocket cleric and pocket
>> > shaman have all their 66-68 spells, as well as multiple gear
>> > upgrades (being alts they had a lower bar on equipment), whereas I
>> > have a single upgrade from the OoW expansion, my 70 disc, and am
>> > still lacking my 69 disc (have a streak of more than 50 lost rolls
>> > on a level 69 rune, I think I'm about to set a record).
>> >
>>
>> The problem is, it's exactly some of those 69/70 spells that are
>> needed in order to once again be able to have a spell that works at
>> that level.
>
> I believe that applies to a single spell. For all the others, there
> are alternatives. Yeah, not as good, but if they were why would you
> bother to keep trying for the better one.
>

I'd have to look them over to be sure as to the exact number of spells,
but, yes, it is a minority of the spells, certainly, and there are
alternatives to most of the spells that are just not as good.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Soothsayer of 70 seasons

On Steamfont in <Insanity Plea>
Graeme, 33 Dwarven Mystic, 24 Sage, Treasure Hunter
Aviv, 15 Gnome Brawler, 30 Provisioner