Characteristic-setting abilities

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rule 405.2, about characteristic-setting abilities, states: "Some objects
have static abilities which state that the object “has” one or more
abilities or characteristic values": could you give me an example of a
Characteristic-setting ability whit "has"?
405.2 states also: "“is” a particular type, supertype, subtype, or color;
or that one or more of its characteristics “is” or “are” a particular
value."; none of those templates corresponds to "~this~ is
indestructible/unblockable", isn't?
Thanks in advance!
AA
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 05:30:12 -0400, "Acherontia" <qebm@libero.it>
wrote:

Ok, lets start with "Characteristics" just to be clear:

201.2. An object's characteristics are name, mana cost, color, type,
subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, abilities, power,
and toughness. Objects can have some or all of these characteristics.
Any other information about an object isn't a characteristic.
Characteristics don't include any other information, such as whether a
permanent is tapped, a spell's target, an object's owner or
controller, what a local enchantment enchants, and so on.

>Rule 405.2, about characteristic-setting abilities, states: "Some objects
>have static abilities which state that the object “has” one or more
>abilities or characteristic values": could you give me an example of a
>Characteristic-setting ability whit "has"?

One example could be:

Fledgling Osprey
{U}
Creature -- Bird
1/1
~this~ has flying as long as it's enchanted.

A more resent example:

Duplicant
{6}
Artifact Creature -- Shapeshifter
2/4
Imprint -- When ~this~ comes into play, you may remove target nontoken
creature from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this
artifact.)
As long as a creature card is imprinted on ~this~, ~this~ has that
card's power, toughness, and creature types. It's still a
Shapeshifter.

One could also list from the rules:

502.23a Threshold is a characteristic-setting ability, written
"Threshold - [text]." It alters the rules text of the object it's on,
based on a condition. The text can create any kind of ability. The
phrase "Threshold - [text]" means "As long as you have seven or more
cards in your graveyard, [this object] has '[text].'"

>405.2 states also: "“is” a particular type, supertype, subtype, or color;
>or that one or more of its characteristics “is” or “are” a particular
>value."; none of those templates corresponds to "~this~ is
>indestructible/unblockable", isn't?

I'm not sure what you are asking, but the "~this~ is indestructible"
part of Darksteel Gargoyle is a characteristic-setting ability - if
that was not the answer you were looking for, then try to ask again.

Darksteel Gargoyle
{7}
Artifact Creature -- Gargoyle
3/3
Flying
~this~ is indestructible. ("Destroy" effects and lethal damage don't
destroy it.)

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

OK, a less stupid question... :)
How does Humility interacts with CSA?
Thanks
AA
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 05:30:12 -0400, Acherontia <qebm@libero.it> wrote:
>Rule 405.2, about characteristic-setting abilities, states: "Some objects
>have static abilities which state that the object “has” one or more
>abilities or characteristic values": could you give me an example of a
>Characteristic-setting ability whit "has"?
>405.2 states also: "“is” a particular type, supertype, subtype, or color;
>or that one or more of its characteristics “is” or “are” a particular
>value."; none of those templates corresponds to "~this~ is
>indestructible/unblockable", isn't?

Well, that's a lot of ~S and ~T characters there. Let's set those to ' in
the reply...

Characteristic-setting abilities set characteristics, and this is fairly
important, _of what they are written on only_. So Sorceress Queen or Humility,
though they set power/toughness, don't count.

Nightmare's ability is characteristic-setting; so is Crookshank Kobolds'.
The ones that set power/toughness or color _usually_ use "is" rather than
"has" ... but some exist that give the permanent they're on actual new text,
or an ability, and those tend to use "has".

For example, "Kavu Runner has haste as long as no opponent controls a white or
blue creature" is a characteristic-setting ability, because it gives the KR
haste under some circumstances, haste is an ability, and abilities are
characteristics, and it applies only to the KR it's written on. This ability
applies before, say, Humble's "loses all abilities" regardless of timestamp,
so Humble always takes the KR's haste away, per 418.5a .

"This is indestructible" isn't setting a characteristic, because
'indestructible' isn't an ability; similarly, "unblockable" isn't a keyword
ability. "This is indestructible" +is+ an ability, as is "this is unblockable"
- but because 'indestructible' and 'unblockable' are just qualities something
can have, not abilities in themselves, neither of these is setting a
_characteristic_.

Whether an ability is characteristic-setting is important only
a) when you're looking at how to order abilities' continuous effects inside
a layer, 418.5a,
or
b) if it also sets type (or subtype or supertype) or color, in which case it
applies in -every- zone, not just in play, 405.2a .
It's usually no different from any other sort of ability unless you're asking
one of those two questions.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote...

>"This is indestructible" isn't setting a characteristic, because
>'indestructible' isn't an ability; similarly, "unblockable" isn't a
>keyword
>ability. "This is indestructible" +is+ an ability, as is "this is
>unblockable"
>- but because 'indestructible' and 'unblockable' are just qualities
>something
>can have, not abilities in themselves, neither of these is setting a
>_characteristic_.

Thanks. I had a debate with other judges about this... I'm glad to see I
was right :)
AA
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>I'm not sure what you are asking, but the "~this~ is indestructible"
>part of Darksteel Gargoyle is a characteristic-setting ability

No, it is not.

Tell me, exactly which characteristic is "indestructible"?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:49:47 -0400, Acherontia <qebm@libero.it> wrote:
>OK, a less stupid question... :)
>How does Humility interacts with CSA?

Humility removes any _abilities granted by_ char-setting abilities, because
its 'removes all abilities' always gets applied on top of the CSA in layer 5,
regardless of timestamp (418.5a). Abilities that are not CSAs can "apply on
top of" Humility if they have a later timestamp; CSAs always get applied first,
regardless of timestamp. Similarly, Humility's "is 1/1" always overwrites
any power/toughness setting from char-setting abilities, though non-CSA
abilities that have later timestamps can overwrite that part (Sorceress Queen's
"that's 0/1" is an example).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:49:47 -0400, "Acherontia" <qebm@libero.it>
wrote:

>OK, a less stupid question... :)
>How does Humility interacts with CSA?

Rather general question - try reading all of 418.5. :)


Humility
{2}{W}{W}
Enchantment
All creatures lose all abilities. ~this~ gains "All creatures are
1/1."

All continuous effects (CSAs belong in that group) are applied in
layers as outlined in 418.5a. Humility fits into that by having two
abilities, one "All creatures lose all abilities." is a other ability
and is applied in layer 5. The other, that states "All creatures are
1/1.", is a power- or toughness-changing effects and is applied in
layer 6.

Also note that;
"Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting
abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or
toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes
from characteristic-setting abilities."
which means that Humility is always applied after any CSAs (and p/t
counters).

How this then interacts with specific cards and their effects is left
as an excercise to the reader - I would probably mess it up. 😛

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann wrote...

>>How does Humility interacts with CSA?
>Rather general question - try reading all of 418.5. :)

I know about this... I was just confused about "indestructible": now it's
clear :)
AA
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in message news:<slrncikrq3.qv0.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com>...
> Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
> >I'm not sure what you are asking, but the "~this~ is indestructible"
> >part of Darksteel Gargoyle is a characteristic-setting ability
>
> No, it is not.
>
> Tell me, exactly which characteristic is "indestructible"?

201.2. An object's characteristics are name, mana cost, color, type,
subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, abilities, power,
and toughness.

I thought it went under "rules text" or "abilities" - but if you say
that I'm wrong, then I defer to your superior knowledge.

Ps. I would have responded sooner, but for some reason your posts just
don't show up on my newsserver, so I have to use google to see you...
🙁

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote in message news:<0crki05gc9626fgvdo2io6odpru14c257s@4ax.com>...
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:49:47 -0400, "Acherontia" <qebm@libero.it>
> wrote:
> >OK, a less stupid question... :)
> >How does Humility interacts with CSA?
>
> Humility
> {2}{W}{W}
> Enchantment
> All creatures lose all abilities. ~this~ gains "All creatures are
> 1/1."

> All continuous effects (CSAs belong in that group) are applied in
> layers as outlined in 418.5a. Humility fits into that by having two
> abilities, one "All creatures lose all abilities." is a other ability
> and is applied in layer 5. The other, that states "All creatures are
> 1/1.", is a power- or toughness-changing effects and is applied in
> layer 6.
>
> Also note that;
> "Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting
> abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or
> toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes
> from characteristic-setting abilities."
> which means that Humility is always applied after any CSAs (and p/t
> counters).

Well, not exactly. Humility has two abilities; the second one is created
by the first one.

The ability-removing ability is applied in the general layer (5), after
any CSAs that apply in that layer or earlier.

The p/t changing ability is applied in the P/T layer (6), after all CSAs
(and counters).

For example:

Volrath's Shapeshifter's CSA applies in the text-changing layer (3).
Since Humility doesn't apply until the general layer (5), the Shapeshifter
goes first. It changes its own text, and later Humility removes all abilities
from that text. It ends up keeping the name and types, etc, of the thing it
copies.
The same is true for Mistform Ultimus.

A Kobold's CSA applies in the general layer (5), just like Humility does.
But because it's a CSA, it applies first. The Kobold's CSA makes it red,
then Humility removes the CSA, with no real effect. It's still red.
The same is true for Kavu Runner, Fledgling Osprey, etc.

Nightmare's CSA applies in the P/T layer (6). Humility will remove this
ability in layer 5 before it gets a chance to do anything. Of course, this
isn't very visible, since Humility will also make the Nightmare 1/1 in layer
6, after the Nightmare would have applied.

> How this then interacts with specific cards and their effects is left
> as an excercise to the reader - I would probably mess it up. 😛

Well, I wrote the current wording for Humility and designed most of
418.5a... I probably still messed something up though. :)

--
Laurie Cheers
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.dk> wrote:

> I thought it went under "rules text" or "abilities" - but if you say
> that I'm wrong, then I defer to your superior knowledge.

Its "~this~ is indestructible" is an ability, i.e., rules text. The
single word "indestructible" is no more a characteristic than the single
word "is".
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.dk> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wroteL
>> Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>> >I'm not sure what you are asking, but the "~this~ is indestructible"
>> >part of Darksteel Gargoyle is a characteristic-setting ability
>>
>> No, it is not.
>>
>> Tell me, exactly which characteristic is "indestructible"?
>
>201.2. An object's characteristics are name, mana cost, color, type,
>subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, abilities, power,
>and toughness.
>
>I thought it went under "rules text" or "abilities" - but if you say
>that I'm wrong, then I defer to your superior knowledge.

It's not giving anything new text - that would be "This has 'indestructible'".
And it's not giving anything an ability ... because "indestructible" isn't
itself an ability of any sort, just a quality. (So that "This has
'indestructible'" wouldn't actually be meaningful anyway, though "This has
'this is indestructible'" _would_ be a char-setting ability...).

>Ps. I would have responded sooner, but for some reason your posts just
>don't show up on my newsserver, so I have to use google to see you...

I hear that a lot, and I'm not sure why; it may be because of the site I
post through.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 24 Aug 2004 08:56:49 -0700, laurie.cheers@btinternet.com (Laurie
Cheers) wrote:

>Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote in message news:<0crki05gc9626fgvdo2io6odpru14c257s@4ax.com>...

>> Humility
>> {2}{W}{W}
>> Enchantment
>> All creatures lose all abilities. ~this~ gains "All creatures are
>> 1/1."

>> Also note that;
>> "Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting
>> abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or
>> toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes
>> from characteristic-setting abilities."
>> which means that Humility is always applied after any CSAs (and p/t
>> counters).

>Well, not exactly. Humility has two abilities; the second one is created
>by the first one.
>
> The ability-removing ability is applied in the general layer (5), after
> any CSAs that apply in that layer or earlier.
>
> The p/t changing ability is applied in the P/T layer (6), after all CSAs
> (and counters).

So "not exactly", in a "Humility is always applied after any CSAs (and
p/t counters) _in_layers_5_and_6_" way?
If so, then you are right, of course. But in my defence I did have the
exact quote just above with "Inside each layer, ...".

>> How this then interacts with specific cards and their effects is left
>> as an excercise to the reader - I would probably mess it up. 😛
>
>Well, I wrote the current wording for Humility and designed most of
>418.5a... I probably still messed something up though. :)

Really? Well, consider me impressed - as well as slightly annoyed, see
second question :)
Does that mean that you are a part of the Magic rules team?

And did you really _need_ to make it (418.5) so complicated? :)

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>>Well, I wrote the current wording for Humility and designed most of
>>418.5a... I probably still messed something up though. :)
>
>Really? Well, consider me impressed - as well as slightly annoyed, see
>second question :)

Mmmm. Maybe a better way to phrase it is that Laurie came up with a wording,
before the currnt Humility wording was adopted, that was identical to it. He
also made great contributions to the discussion that let to the revamping of
418.5a into the current 6-layer structure, including some portions of that
discussions that are actively dangerous for ordinary players to look at
(we don't -want- to melt players' brains, that makes less players)...

>Does that mean that you are a part of the Magic rules team?
>And did you really _need_ to make it (418.5) so complicated? :)

Opinions differ on that last. _I_ still think there were better ways. Part of
the problem, though, with designing a continuous-effect-interaction system
turns out to be that nearly all the systems that get Good Results ... can't
be explained coherently by their creators. (And vice versa...) What we have now
is somewhat better than it was before, in the Gets Good Results column - but
that came at the price of a smaller amount of Obviousness.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:04:03 -0500, panoptes@iquest.net (Daniel W.
Johnson) wrote:

>Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.dk> wrote:
>
>> I thought it went under "rules text" or "abilities" - but if you say
>> that I'm wrong, then I defer to your superior knowledge.
>
>Its "~this~ is indestructible" is an ability, i.e., rules text. The
>single word "indestructible" is no more a characteristic than the single
>word "is".

Ok, so these are all abilities:
~this~ is indestructable
~this~ is unblockable
flying
trampling
{R}, Sacrifice two artifacts: Destroy target artifact.


And "~this~ has X" where X is one of the above is a
characteristic-setting ability?
Eg.:
~this~ has "~this~ is indestructable" <if so-and-so is true>

If yes, then I think I get it now. :)

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in message news:<slrncin5a2.sbo.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com>...
>Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>>>Well, I wrote the current wording for Humility and designed most of
>>>418.5a... I probably still messed something up though. :)
>>
>>Really? Well, consider me impressed - as well as slightly annoyed, see
>>second question :)
>
> Mmmm. Maybe a better way to phrase it is that Laurie came up with a wording,
> before the currnt Humility wording was adopted, that was identical to it.

That's more fair, I suppose. Wouldn't want to sound big-headed or anything...

> He also made great contributions to the discussion that let to the revamping
> of 418.5a into the current 6-layer structure, including some portions of that
> discussions that are actively dangerous for ordinary players to look at
> (we don't -want- to melt players' brains, that makes less players)...

:)

> >Does that mean that you are a part of the Magic rules team?

No, just a freelance guru...

> >And did you really _need_ to make it (418.5) so complicated? :)

IMO yes.

> Opinions differ on that last.

Indeed they do. :)

> _I_ still think there were better ways. Part of the problem, though, with
> designing a continuous-effect-interaction system turns out to be that nearly
> all the systems that get Good Results ... can't be explained coherently by
> their creators. (And vice versa...)

.... creators can't be explained coherently by their systems?
(Seriously, what does the "vice versa" refer to there?)

> What we have now is somewhat better than it was before, in the Gets Good
> Results column - but that came at the price of a smaller amount of
> Obviousness.

And looking at Kavu Runner, I realise we missed an issue. Drat.

One of the main reasons it's so complicated was that CSAs need to apply
before any other kind of effect: if you play a Kobold when Darkest Hour is in
play, it intuitively ought to be black... but timestamp order would say it was
red.
Therefore we say Kobolds have a special type of ability that "applies first".

Unfortunately, that gives us a new problem: Yavimaya Kavu has an ability
that ought to be affected by Darkest Hour... and yet it needs to "apply first".

We can't just move YK's effect after Darkest Hour - that might move it to
after a Glorious Anthem.
And we can't move the Darkest Hour before YK - that might move it to before a
Kobold.

Therefore we say Yavimaya Kavu, and all P/T changing effects, go in their own
layer.

The same logic applies to text-changing effects: Artificial Evolution needs to
apply before Living Terrain.

And Kavu Runner? It has the same problem. It should be affected by Darkest
Hour, but it technically isn't. Drat.

--
Laurie Cheers
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Laurie Cheers <laurie.cheers@btinternet.com> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> _I_ still think there were better ways. Part of the problem, though, with
>> designing a continuous-effect-interaction system turns out to be that nearly
>> all the systems that get Good Results ... can't be explained coherently by
>> their creators. (And vice versa...)
>
>... creators can't be explained coherently by their systems?
>(Seriously, what does the "vice versa" refer to there?)

Oh, sorry - (And the systems that can be explained coherently and simply by
their creators don't get Good Results, particularly in corner cases.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> And looking at Kavu Runner, I realise we missed an issue. Drat.

Part of the problem is that, because of 'if' clauses like Kavu Runner,
just about any characteristic can be dependent on any other
characteristic of the game. And if you have something from a 'later'
layer dependent on something in an 'earlier' layer, it's broke.

For example, a card I made up, but that isn't that unrealistic (see
Dralnu's Crusade):
Night of the Living Dead
Enchantment
All black creatures are Zombies in addition to their creature types.

You've got a type 4 (type/subtype) effect dependent on type 5 (other,
incl. color) effects. As long as there is a defined order, these will
never work.

I think what this means is, Wizards will restrict themselves from
making cards that break this, which is kind of sad, because we all
*know* how Kavu Runner (or Night of the Living Dead) should react to a
Darkest Hour.

Peter
 
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knucklehead000@yahoo.com (Peter) wrote in message news:<9591b0f0.0408251140.23f748c1@posting.google.com>...
> > And looking at Kavu Runner, I realise we missed an issue. Drat.
>
> Part of the problem is that, because of 'if' clauses like Kavu Runner,
> just about any characteristic can be dependent on any other
> characteristic of the game. And if you have something from a 'later'
> layer dependent on something in an 'earlier' layer, it's broke.

Right.
Fortunately for us, there are very few cards that can cause this
situation. Basically, it's the things that can remove abilities -
Humility, Titania's Song, and the land-type changing effects like
Conversion.

> For example, a card I made up, but that isn't that unrealistic (see
> Dralnu's Crusade):
> Night of the Living Dead
> Enchantment
> All black creatures are Zombies in addition to their creature types.
>
> You've got a type 4 (type/subtype) effect dependent on type 5 (other,
> incl. color) effects. As long as there is a defined order, these will
> never work.

Right.

> I think what this means is, Wizards will restrict themselves from
> making cards that break this, which is kind of sad, because we all
> *know* how Kavu Runner (or Night of the Living Dead) should react to a
> Darkest Hour.

Sure, in theory. We just can't implement it.
Imagine having Dralnu's Crusade in play, along with your NOTLD card, with
the text changed to "All red creatures are Goblins" by Artificial Evolution
and Sleight of Mind.
We end up with a vicious dependency loop. All red creatures are Goblins,
and all Goblins are black, which means they're no longer red, which means
they're no longer Goblins, which means they're red again, blah blah blah.
It's really bad to have dependency loops in the game.


Potentially, your card could be implemented as something like...

Creatures with night counters on them are Zombies.
Whenever a black creature has no night counters on it, put a night counter
on it.
Whenever a nonblack creature has night counters on it, remove all night
counters from it.

....which means that in the Dralnu's Crusade example, the triggered abilities
form an infinite loop and the game would end in a draw.
(In fact I did suggest "the game is a draw" as a resolution to dependency
loops, but Paul preferred the 6-layer system.)

Hope this clarifies why things are the way they are.

--
Laurie Cheers
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

So does humility take away they indestructable or is the 1/1 gargoyle still
indestructable?
Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. -
Tom Lehrer
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

iarchmagej@aol.computerMU (IArchmageJ) writes:
> So does humility take away they indestructable or is the 1/1
> gargoyle still indestructable?

"Darksteel Gargoyle is indestructible." is an ability, and Humility
takes it away.

--
Peter C.
"The IPng WG has selected a packet format which includes 1696 bytes of
address space."
-- RFC 1776, "The Address is the Message"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 03 Sep 2004 15:55:59 GMT, IArchmageJ <iarchmagej@aol.computerMU> wrote:
>So does humility take away they indestructable or is the 1/1 gargoyle still
>indestructable?

"Indestructible" isn't an ability, keyword or otherwise, just like "blue"
isn't and "Rat" isn't.

"This is indestructible" is an ability, and Humility can take that away just
fine, as long as Darksteel Gargoyle is a creature.

(Humility will affect Darksteel Brute as long as it's a creature, also -
it will take away both of its abilities and make it 1/1. But it won't affect
the Brute while it's _not_ a creature - it'll be indestructible then.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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