Cheap system... (Abit NF7-M ?)

keith

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Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
(all from NewEgg):

Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
CD bunrner - Lite On $29
DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
-----
$399.50 (pretty close to target ;)

The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

Comments?

--
Keith
 
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
you stick with PC2700 memory. I don't know if it was just the
particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
integrated video.

Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
Windows land this shouldn't be an issue. However what WAS an issue I
ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
get the drivers working properly on this system.


In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
then you're pretty limited.

>History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
>she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
>(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
>what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
>(all from NewEgg):
>
>Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
>Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
>Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
>Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
>Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
>CD bunrner - Lite On $29
>DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> -----
> $399.50 (pretty close to target ;)
>
>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
>and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
>comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
>put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
>unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
quality case isn't a bad idea).

As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
quality stuff either.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
 
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In article <hcnkl0t9fc53cs6t9qt5o388dlcc00ur8q@4ax.com>, hilla_nospam_
20@yahoo.ca says...
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
> >Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
> >business for *years*, so am looking for some help.
>
> Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
> with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
> can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
> The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
> you stick with PC2700 memory.

I chose PC2700 memory to match the processor's FSB. Crucial lists all
varieties (PC2100/2700/3200/4000) as compatible,though decided not to
go with them because of cost (I'd spend the $10 difference, but..)

> I don't know if it was just the
> particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
> Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
> integrated video.

The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
memory is pretty amazing though.

In what other ways is the video "picky"?

> Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
> not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
> Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.

Win98 (I have a license "left over").

> However what WAS an issue I
> ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
> picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
> and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
> re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
> get the drivers working properly on this system.

It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
the effort, particularly given your input here.
>
> In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
> an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
> Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
> the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
> static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
> it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
> video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
> performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
> backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
> is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
> then you're pretty limited.

"ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)
>
> >History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
> >she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
> >(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
> >what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
> >(all from NewEgg):
> >
> >Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
> >Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
> >Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
> >Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
> >Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
> >CD bunrner - Lite On $29
> >DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> > -----
> > $399.50 (pretty close to target ;)
> >
> >The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
> >and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
> >comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
> >put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
> >unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).
>
> You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
> buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
> often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
> a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
> they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
> rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
> quality case isn't a bad idea).

Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).

> As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
> and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
> add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
> cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
> that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
> but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
> quality stuff either.

Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and
sold through NewEgg (one stop shopping). Worth some thought though.
Maybe I'll take a flier on bottom-feeding memory and hope NewEgg stands
behind it, at least up-front.

Thanks for the input.

--
Keith
 
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:07:21 -0400, Keith R. Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
wrote:
>
>In article <hcnkl0t9fc53cs6t9qt5o388dlcc00ur8q@4ax.com>, hilla_nospam_
>20@yahoo.ca says...
>> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> I don't know if it was just the
>> particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
>> Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
>> integrated video.
>
>The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
>look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
>memory is pretty amazing though.

Yup, that one kind of blew me away. It didn't play nice with my
PC2100 memory either, despite the fact that I was running at a
133/266MHz bus speed processor.

>In what other ways is the video "picky"?

Well, for the brief bit that I had it running in Windows the drivers
were being a bit uncooperative, though that may have been more related
to the problems I was having installing overtop of a previous install.

>> Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
>> not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
>> Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.
>
>Win98 (I have a license "left over").
>
>> However what WAS an issue I
>> ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
>> picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
>> and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
>> re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
>> get the drivers working properly on this system.
>
>It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
>to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
>the effort, particularly given your input here.

Good plan!
>
>> In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
>> an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
>> Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
>> the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
>> static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
>> it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
>> video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
>> performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
>> backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
>> is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
>> then you're pretty limited.
>
>"ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
>clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)

Hehe, yeah, I have to say that it's not exactly a name that inspires
confidence. FWIW it's not quite PCChips stuff, it's actually an Asus
brand name but with all production outsourced to ECS. Of course,
given that ECS also fabs PCChips boards I wouldn't be surprised if
there were some similarities between the designs.

>Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
>around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
>and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).

Well that's what ya get for living in the middle of nowhere! :>

>> As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
>> and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
>> add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
>> cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
>> that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
>> but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
>> quality stuff either.
>
>Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and

Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
 
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Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
>memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
>memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
>wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
worked great and it's also very competitively priced.
 
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>
>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

I've done one nForce2 integrated video system - an MSI K7N2G-L which is a
full ATX, with 5 PCI slots & 3 memory slots, like the N7F-M you're looking
at. It's still listed at the MSI Global site but not at the U.S. site any
more and I don't see it at NewEgg or the other few e-tail sites I've looked
at. It's kinda amazing now, how mbrd models come and then go... disappear
within a matter of months... in fact Abit looks like the only "reputable"
mfr still offering a non-micro-ATX version of that config.

Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time for a
few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as smooth.

The only problem I ran into was because, after running Seagate diags on the
drive, I figured I might as well use their handy-dandy partition+format
utility to prep the disk partitions rather than the M$ one. Symantec
Anti-Virus didn't like something about it - MBR?... boot records? - and I
had to use the WinXP repair utility to fix it.

>History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
>she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
>(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
>what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
>(all from NewEgg):
>
>Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
>Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
>Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
>Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
>Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
>CD bunrner - Lite On $29
>DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> -----
> $399.50 (pretty close to target ;)
>
>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
>and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
>comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
>put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
>unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:)

>Comments?

Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:), never liked Abit but I
have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given their
popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.

I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the SX635BII
case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41. the price
is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than their
Chenming jobs but should be OK - let us know how you get on with the build
on it. Maybe the son'd prefer one of the blue-light err, specials??:)

On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've seen
is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not been
running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible for some
systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to get it to
run. Here's an interesting note:
http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp

On the strength of the above, I went with the Kingmax SuperRAM, instead of
Kingston, in our K8 systems and it's working fine - Memtest86+ shows it as
running at advertized timing of 2.5-4-4-8 though I've no idea if that's
chipset register values or just a read-out of SPD. It's recommended by MSI
for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since Kingmax is located in
Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away from some of the mbrd
makers. The only thing I don't like about it is the chip source is
obliterated with their own logo.

Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 

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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:51:32 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
>>memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
>>memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
>>wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.
>
> At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
> been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
> work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
> which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
> worked great and it's also very competitively priced.

"Buffalo" was the same price as KVR. Even Crucial isn't really *that*
much higher ($8/256MB stick), when one considers shippping. Me? I pay
the money. In this case it's not my money though; obviously others have
different priorities.

--
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keith wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

>> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
>> suppose but they've worked OK for me.

> I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
> isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
> connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
> FSB and memory. ;-)

the best IDE cables are the fairly new round IDE
cables, provided that they are sturdy. www.newegg.com
has a long list of MANY round IDE cables. :)

best i've gotten (so far) are Antec Cobra
and the 3 (2 IDE/1 floppy) included with
a DFI Lanparty mobo (Intel)

bill
 
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keith wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

....

>> Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
>> chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
>> 2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time
>> for a few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as
>> smooth.

....

> That's what I'm hopeing. Again, I have a Win98 license or two I've never
> used. I'd like to go XP for her, but the budget doesn't allow such things.


for win/dos, 98SE is THE one (forget WinMe,
coz it is a TOTAL POS!)

just do NOT put more than 512MB of memory
on 9x or you WILL be very sorry!!

re WinXP, i'd go with Win2000 SP4
(that's a hunch and not experience)

bill
 

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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:58:31 -0500, willbill wrote:

> keith wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:
>
>>> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
>>> suppose but they've worked OK for me.
>
>> I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
>> isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
>> connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
>> FSB and memory. ;-)
>
> the best IDE cables are the fairly new round IDE
> cables, provided that they are sturdy. www.newegg.com
> has a long list of MANY round IDE cables. :)

Well... I'm not impressed with any violations of specs. ...unless
they're verified to be actually with the specs. I'll have a look though,
a coupla cables would be cheaper than a case. (drat! I was looking at a
better casee ;-)
>
> best i've gotten (so far) are Antec Cobra and the 3 (2 IDE/1 floppy)
> included with a DFI Lanparty mobo (Intel)

I'm not really impressed with any "round" cables that I've seen. SATA
cables are round, but they're still a PITA. If the SuSE/Tyan/SI3114
drivers worked I'd be a happy camper. I'd take the pATA drive outa this
thing and put it back in the old beast where it belongs. Until that
happens (not counting chickens), I'm doing little more than heating the
room with the SATA drive.

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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:48:01 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
>isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
>connectors closer to the drives?

is there any reason why if the mountain doesn't come to Mohammed,
Mohammed cannot go to the mountain instead? Or is your casing so huge
that even moving the drives closer won't help? :ppPpPp
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If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 

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On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 03:06:15 +0000, The little lost angel wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:48:01 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
>>isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
>>connectors closer to the drives?
>
> is there any reason why if the mountain doesn't come to Mohammed,
> Mohammed cannot go to the mountain instead? Or is your casing so huge
> that even moving the drives closer won't help? :ppPpPp

I guess I could get out the Binford 6000 chasis saw (more TV humor here).
No, the casing isn't *huge* (6" shorter then my trusty Q500 casess),
rather the IDE ports are in a bad place. One assumes they think a
"server" will only have disk drives and no CDROM drives? The cables
*just* about make it to the top of the case. In no way can one put two
drives (disk-CD, or CD-CD) in there on the same (standard) IDE cable.
Thus, my DVDROM frive is disconnected now.

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On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:34:53 -0400, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

>Viewsonic at the office and they're "OK". The "standard" acceptable
>tolerance for dead pixels seems to be 10... which seems like a lot to me -
>I'd be pissed with that at the wrong end of ~$500. Any experiences or
>hints appreciated.

That's really weird. I think around here, 3~7 seems to be the max and
some brands like Philips offer a 3yrs zero bright dots warranty.
Though admittedly, I'm not sure if they cover dead dots as well :pPpPp

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:34:43 GMT, a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com
(The little lost angel) wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:34:53 -0400, George Macdonald
><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>
>>Viewsonic at the office and they're "OK". The "standard" acceptable
>>tolerance for dead pixels seems to be 10... which seems like a lot to me -
>>I'd be pissed with that at the wrong end of ~$500. Any experiences or
>>hints appreciated.
>
>That's really weird. I think around here, 3~7 seems to be the max and
>some brands like Philips offer a 3yrs zero bright dots warranty.
>Though admittedly, I'm not sure if they cover dead dots as well :pPpPp

It varies by screen size - here's Samsung's policy which at least is stated
up front:
http://erms.samsungusa.com/customer/sea/jsp/faqs/faqs_view.jsp?PG_ID=1&AT_ID=5608&PROD_SUB_ID=28&PROD_ID=-1

Others, like Sony, will not say and just make some comments about how
difficult (impossible ?) it is to make zero-defect TFT LCDs and how if you
get an exchange the 2nd one might be worse.:) NewEgg states 8 as their
threshold for an RMA. On laptops the policy used to be if they're near
(weasel wording) the edge of the screen they don't even count.

I suspect that many people who believe they have zero "dead pixels" do in
fact have a few which they just don't notice. Note also that if you do get
a replacement it's going to be a "refurbished" - the return rate on those
things is huge... everybody wants perfect but it just doesn't exist... and
the repair techs are told what is "acceptable". Indications are that many
returns are just reboxed because they are "within tolerance" - IOW if the
1st one ain't perfect, the odds are stacked even worse on the 2nd.

I once got a CRT which had one bad pixel - a blue which would not "light
up" and since it was off center and the geometry of the screen was so
unusually good I lived with it. Viewsonic waffled a little when I called
them but eventually said that they would replace it if I really wanted to -
the refurbished thing really put me off.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:11 -0400, Keith R. Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
wrote:

>In article <l5akm0dvlghb2blbh36b21ju12to5ickr5@4ax.com>, fammacd=!
>SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com says...

>> Which OS is on the old system? If Win95 it's beyond salvage value; if
>> Win98(non-SE) that's as bad. If Win98SE and you go ahead with a removal of
>> all devices in Safe Mode, remember to put a CD-ROM driver in CONFIG.SYS and
>> load MSCDEX in the AUTOEXEC.BAT before you try to boot up in the new
>> system.
>
>I'm not sure what version it has, which is why I want to salvage it, if
>possible. I think my copies are all Win98 (non-SE), so I'm hoping that
>the old system SE (It's about the right age). A new OS will bust the
>bank.

To tell the truth, any non-SEs I've had, I've just done an illegal(?)
upgrade to SE because the non-SE (shows as 4.10.1998) is so bad and the
fixes were never made available for it.

>Good point about the CD-ROM driver. I wouldn't have thought of that
>(the first time ;-). I've copied the old disk to the new, so I can go
>back if I blow it. One thing that sorta surprised be is that I can't
>expand the FAT32 partition beyond 8GB. I suppose it shouldn't,
>considering the clusters were set up on a 6GB drive and Win is *dumb*.

If you don't have a CD-ROM driver handy the oakcdrom.sys in the
windows\command\ebd folder should be good.

>I'm still short the Nero CD (I have one from my DVD burner though) and
>sound cable, so I'll still have to twit NewEgg. I would have just paid
>the $.99 and forgotten the whole thing, but I don't want to pay the
>other $4.99 to have it shipped. :-(

I never bother with sound cables any longer - just use the digital
interface for playing. In fact I have several of those things lying around
- e-mail me if you want one.

>> Me?... looks like I'll be starting my spending earlier than anticipated: my
>> Nokia 447XS monitor started playing up on Sat. morning. The screen just
>> suddenly went black with no other symptoms - after finding that a spell
>> with no power would make it work again for a few mins... or a few hours, I
>> eventually discovered that a whack on the side works too. I'm on my 3rd
>> whack so far this evening.:) I guess it could just be 5years of dirt
>> build-up but I hate to lose this one since it's the best monitor I've ever
>> seen as far as geometry (absolutely perfect) and clarity goes.
>
>Like your Nokia, my IBM G94 (or is it a G96?) is perfect too, but has
>been doing some horizontal shrinking/flickering. I may check out my
>house mains voltage since it seems to be related. The power supply may
>be getting weak.

I *wonder*.... we've had a few nasty power outages here recently from
post-hurricane damage (they'e always pretty weak by the time they get to NJ
but still have the occasional squall). It's possible that's what finished
my Nokia off but once I get a replacement I'll probably open it up for a
clean-up.

>> Now I'm investigating the swamp of LCD monitors - dunno what to make of it
>> really... so many bad stories about every brand available. Samsung looks
>> good - looking at the 172X - but there are indications that they are just
>> "very good at writing really good specs".:) I've tried Iiyama and
>> Viewsonic at the office and they're "OK". The "standard" acceptable
>> tolerance for dead pixels seems to be 10... which seems like a lot to me -
>> I'd be pissed with that at the wrong end of ~$500. Any experiences or
>> hints appreciated.
>
>The CFO wanted an LCD monitor, but the large ones are still too
>expensive for my blood. I'm very happy with the dual-screen Viewsonic
>P95/IBM G94 setup. I didn't have the cash to go dual LCDs and buy a
>system too.

I have limited space so a 17" is about the max I can go and even some of
those are too tall. The Nokia was a really special short-neck - shortest
17" ever.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 

keith

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Mar 30, 2004
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0
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On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:14:51 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:34:43 GMT, a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com
> (The little lost angel) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:34:53 -0400, George Macdonald
>><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Viewsonic at the office and they're "OK". The "standard" acceptable
>>>tolerance for dead pixels seems to be 10... which seems like a lot to me -
>>>I'd be pissed with that at the wrong end of ~$500. Any experiences or
>>>hints appreciated.
>>
>>That's really weird. I think around here, 3~7 seems to be the max and
>>some brands like Philips offer a 3yrs zero bright dots warranty.
>>Though admittedly, I'm not sure if they cover dead dots as well :pPpPp
>
> It varies by screen size - here's Samsung's policy which at least is stated
> up front:
> http://erms.samsungusa.com/customer/sea/jsp/faqs/faqs_view.jsp?PG_ID=1&AT_ID=5608&PROD_SUB_ID=28&PROD_ID=-1
>
> Others, like Sony, will not say and just make some comments about how
> difficult (impossible ?) it is to make zero-defect TFT LCDs and how if you
> get an exchange the 2nd one might be worse.:) NewEgg states 8 as their
> threshold for an RMA. On laptops the policy used to be if they're near
> (weasel wording) the edge of the screen they don't even count.

Another reason I love my ThinkPad A21p. It *had* zero defective dots
outta 1.9M. Over the last three years it has developed a dark-dot, but I
rarely see it. ...only when an ultra-fine line goues down that
street/avenue.

> I suspect that many people who believe they have zero "dead pixels" do
> in fact have a few which they just don't notice. Note also that if you
> do get a replacement it's going to be a "refurbished" - the return rate
> on those things is huge... everybody wants perfect but it just doesn't
> exist... and the repair techs are told what is "acceptable".

Sure. ...though if *I* spent that kinda money I'd want *perfect* too.
Thanks, I'll stay with CRTs for a while longer.

> Indications
> are that many returns are just reboxed because they are "within
> tolerance" - IOW if the 1st one ain't perfect, the odds are stacked even
> worse on the 2nd.

Makes sense; piss off the complainers! ...no loss. ;-)

> I once got a CRT which had one bad pixel - a blue which would not "light
> up" and since it was off center and the geometry of the screen was so
> unusually good I lived with it. Viewsonic waffled a little when I
> called them but eventually said that they would replace it if I really
> wanted to - the refurbished thing really put me off.

I'd like to see a "bright-dot" on a CRT. ;-)

I rather like my ViewSonic monitor. The kid bought one a few years ago
and it made my IBM look rather pale next to it. When he moved out that
space was left for another (actually I've taken over his bedroom ;). Of
course a sweetheart deal with ViewSonic didn't change my mind either. ;-)


--
Keith
 

keith

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Mar 30, 2004
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0
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:14:52 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:11 -0400, Keith R. Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
> wrote:
>
>>In article <l5akm0dvlghb2blbh36b21ju12to5ickr5@4ax.com>, fammacd=!
>>SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com says...
>
>>> Which OS is on the old system? If Win95 it's beyond salvage value; if
>>> Win98(non-SE) that's as bad. If Win98SE and you go ahead with a removal of
>>> all devices in Safe Mode, remember to put a CD-ROM driver in CONFIG.SYS and
>>> load MSCDEX in the AUTOEXEC.BAT before you try to boot up in the new
>>> system.
>>
>>I'm not sure what version it has, which is why I want to salvage it, if
>>possible. I think my copies are all Win98 (non-SE), so I'm hoping that
>>the old system SE (It's about the right age). A new OS will bust the
>>bank.
>
> To tell the truth, any non-SEs I've had, I've just done an illegal(?)
> upgrade to SE because the non-SE (shows as 4.10.1998) is so bad and the
> fixes were never made available for it.

Illegal? No! You? <ok, how? ;-) >
>
>>Good point about the CD-ROM driver. I wouldn't have thought of that
>>(the first time ;-). I've copied the old disk to the new, so I can go
>>back if I blow it. One thing that sorta surprised be is that I can't
>>expand the FAT32 partition beyond 8GB. I suppose it shouldn't,
>>considering the clusters were set up on a 6GB drive and Win is *dumb*.
>
> If you don't have a CD-ROM driver handy the oakcdrom.sys in the
> windows\command\ebd folder should be good.

I've taken her old drive and put it in the new system to make CD copying
easier. I assume it'llll be simple to re-use it. (no time tonight to
mess with it all)

>>I'm still short the Nero CD (I have one from my DVD burner though) and
>>sound cable, so I'll still have to twit NewEgg. I would have just paid
>>the $.99 and forgotten the whole thing, but I don't want to pay the
>>other $4.99 to have it shipped. :-(
>
> I never bother with sound cables any longer - just use the digital
> interface for playing. In fact I have several of those things lying
> around - e-mail me if you want one.

I don't mess with any sound myself, but that attitude is getting me in
trouble on the home-front. SWMBO is insisting on sound. Perrhaps when I
get the room finished (likely never) I'll hook it op on the Linux system.
It'll give her another incentive to learn how to navigate Linux. <;-)

>>> Me?... looks like I'll be starting my spending earlier than
>>> anticipated: my Nokia 447XS monitor started playing up on Sat.
>>> morning. The screen just suddenly went black with no other symptoms -
>>> after finding that a spell with no power would make it work again for
>>> a few mins... or a few hours, I eventually discovered that a whack on
>>> the side works too. I'm on my 3rd whack so far this evening.:) I
>>> guess it could just be 5years of dirt build-up but I hate to lose this
>>> one since it's the best monitor I've ever seen as far as geometry
>>> (absolutely perfect) and clarity goes.
>>
>>Like your Nokia, my IBM G94 (or is it a G96?) is perfect too, but has
>>been doing some horizontal shrinking/flickering. I may check out my
>>house mains voltage since it seems to be related. The power supply may
>>be getting weak.
>
> I *wonder*.... we've had a few nasty power outages here recently from
> post-hurricane damage (they'e always pretty weak by the time they get to
> NJ but still have the occasional squall). It's possible that's what
> finished my Nokia off but once I get a replacement I'll probably open it
> up for a clean-up.

Good idea! Don't mess until a good backup is at hand!

>>> Now I'm investigating the swamp of LCD monitors - dunno what to make
>>> of it really... so many bad stories about every brand available.
>>> Samsung looks good - looking at the 172X - but there are indications
>>> that they are just "very good at writing really good specs".:) I've
>>> tried Iiyama and Viewsonic at the office and they're "OK". The
>>> "standard" acceptable tolerance for dead pixels seems to be 10...
>>> which seems like a lot to me - I'd be pissed with that at the wrong
>>> end of ~$500. Any experiences or hints appreciated.
>>
>>The CFO wanted an LCD monitor, but the large ones are still too
>>expensive for my blood. I'm very happy with the dual-screen Viewsonic
>>P95/IBM G94 setup. I didn't have the cash to go dual LCDs and buy a
>>system too.
>
> I have limited space so a 17" is about the max I can go and even some of
> those are too tall. The Nokia was a really special short-neck -
> shortest 17" ever.

Since the kid left the nest I have lotsa space. ...not time to get the
space right, and I'm repairing the sheetrock (not his fault - roof leak)
and trying to paind around the computers). Sheetrock dust is the pits.
....and my house is full of it, and much more to do.

--
Keith
 
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On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:49:57 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:14:51 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

>> Others, like Sony, will not say and just make some comments about how
>> difficult (impossible ?) it is to make zero-defect TFT LCDs and how if you
>> get an exchange the 2nd one might be worse.:) NewEgg states 8 as their
>> threshold for an RMA. On laptops the policy used to be if they're near
>> (weasel wording) the edge of the screen they don't even count.
>
>Another reason I love my ThinkPad A21p. It *had* zero defective dots
>outta 1.9M. Over the last three years it has developed a dark-dot, but I
>rarely see it. ...only when an ultra-fine line goues down that
>street/avenue.

All our Thinkpads - 7 of them over the years - have had zero bad pixels; we
had one which would occasionally show one bad dot but a nudge with the flat
of a fingernail would bring it back

>> I suspect that many people who believe they have zero "dead pixels" do
>> in fact have a few which they just don't notice. Note also that if you
>> do get a replacement it's going to be a "refurbished" - the return rate
>> on those things is huge... everybody wants perfect but it just doesn't
>> exist... and the repair techs are told what is "acceptable".
>
>Sure. ...though if *I* spent that kinda money I'd want *perfect* too.
>Thanks, I'll stay with CRTs for a while longer.


Yeah - makes me nervous as I draw my cc out of my wallet here but I dunno
how many good whacks I've got left with this Nokia.:)

>> I once got a CRT which had one bad pixel - a blue which would not "light
>> up" and since it was off center and the geometry of the screen was so
>> unusually good I lived with it. Viewsonic waffled a little when I
>> called them but eventually said that they would replace it if I really
>> wanted to - the refurbished thing really put me off.
>
>I'd like to see a "bright-dot" on a CRT. ;-)
>
>I rather like my ViewSonic monitor. The kid bought one a few years ago
>and it made my IBM look rather pale next to it. When he moved out that
>space was left for another (actually I've taken over his bedroom ;). Of
>course a sweetheart deal with ViewSonic didn't change my mind either. ;-)

For CRTs I've been buying Viewsonics for home & work since I got my 1st
home computer - it came with a 14" Viewsonic which never let me down... was
still working when it was dumped. Only exception was this Nokia, because
it was the only 17" available which would fit in the available "hole". Of
all the Viewsonics we've had in the office, only one was sent back for
repair - the rest are all in some state of "working" - hey remember my
boss's umm, syndrome.:)

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 

keith

Distinguished
Mar 30, 2004
1,335
0
19,280
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:35:15 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:49:57 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:14:51 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:
>
>>> Others, like Sony, will not say and just make some comments about how
>>> difficult (impossible ?) it is to make zero-defect TFT LCDs and how if you
>>> get an exchange the 2nd one might be worse.:) NewEgg states 8 as their
>>> threshold for an RMA. On laptops the policy used to be if they're near
>>> (weasel wording) the edge of the screen they don't even count.
>>
>>Another reason I love my ThinkPad A21p. It *had* zero defective dots
>>outta 1.9M. Over the last three years it has developed a dark-dot, but I
>>rarely see it. ...only when an ultra-fine line goues down that
>>street/avenue.
>
> All our Thinkpads - 7 of them over the years - have had zero bad pixels; we
> had one which would occasionally show one bad dot but a nudge with the flat
> of a fingernail would bring it back

Actually I noticed another darkie on my A21p, but I had to really go
looking today. I had nothing else to do since teh Virus police decided to
kick me off the network, for an undisclosed reason. They made me guess
that I was kicked off too. THe only hint I had was that my LAN cable was
"disconnected". The monkeys down the hall pulling new cables led me
t'wards a different hypothesis though. ...a *total* waste of a day.

>>> I suspect that many people who believe they have zero "dead pixels" do
>>> in fact have a few which they just don't notice. Note also that if
>>> you do get a replacement it's going to be a "refurbished" - the return
>>> rate on those things is huge... everybody wants perfect but it just
>>> doesn't exist... and the repair techs are told what is "acceptable".
>>
>>Sure. ...though if *I* spent that kinda money I'd want *perfect* too.
>>Thanks, I'll stay with CRTs for a while longer.
>
>
> Yeah - makes me nervous as I draw my cc out of my wallet here but I
> dunno how many good whacks I've got left with this Nokia.:)

Indeed. The truth comes home whan the money is personal.

>>> I once got a CRT which had one bad pixel - a blue which would not
>>> "light up" and since it was off center and the geometry of the screen
>>> was so unusually good I lived with it. Viewsonic waffled a little
>>> when I called them but eventually said that they would replace it if I
>>> really wanted to - the refurbished thing really put me off.
>>
>>I'd like to see a "bright-dot" on a CRT. ;-)
>>
>>I rather like my ViewSonic monitor. The kid bought one a few years ago
>>and it made my IBM look rather pale next to it. When he moved out that
>>space was left for another (actually I've taken over his bedroom ;). Of
>>course a sweetheart deal with ViewSonic didn't change my mind either.
>>;-)
>
> For CRTs I've been buying Viewsonics for home & work since I got my 1st
> home computer - it came with a 14" Viewsonic which never let me down...
> was still working when it was dumped. Only exception was this Nokia,
> because it was the only 17" available which would fit in the available
> "hole". Of all the Viewsonics we've had in the office, only one was
> sent back for repair - the rest are all in some state of "working" - hey
> remember my boss's umm, syndrome.:)

It seems we have a "partnership" with ViewSonic so get a rather
good price on their products. Though even before, my son's ViewSonic
19" 'G' series was much better than my IBM 'G' series of maybe a year
earler, and far less expensive. I'm certainly not sorry for buying the
P95f+B. If the IBM goes I'll buy another.

--
Keith
 

keith

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Mar 30, 2004
1,335
0
19,280
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:14:52 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:00:11 -0400, Keith R. Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
> wrote:
>
>>In article <l5akm0dvlghb2blbh36b21ju12to5ickr5@4ax.com>, fammacd=!
>>SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com says...
>
>>> Which OS is on the old system? If Win95 it's beyond salvage value; if
>>> Win98(non-SE) that's as bad. If Win98SE and you go ahead with a removal of
>>> all devices in Safe Mode, remember to put a CD-ROM driver in CONFIG.SYS and
>>> load MSCDEX in the AUTOEXEC.BAT before you try to boot up in the new
>>> system.
>>
>>I'm not sure what version it has, which is why I want to salvage it, if
>>possible. I think my copies are all Win98 (non-SE), so I'm hoping that
>>the old system SE (It's about the right age). A new OS will bust the
>>bank.
>
> To tell the truth, any non-SEs I've had, I've just done an illegal(?)
> upgrade to SE because the non-SE (shows as 4.10.1998) is so bad and the
> fixes were never made available for it.

Well, the good news is that the old system is '98SE. I was able to get
the system to recognize everything (I think). It took a dozen re-boots
and a few slaps upside the head, but... I did make a minor oops (and a
major one). I couldn't get the fool thing to understand the N-Force4
graphics controller, though the drivers loaded fine. Ok, there is this
littke thing about enabling the on-board controller in BIOS, but...

....then there was the floppy controller power connector plugged off by one
pin. Oww! Smoked the power cable to it. Oh, well... I wonder if the
floppy survived? ...another problem with that Antec case; the cable
congestion around the drives is pretty severe (not an excuse, rather an
explanation ;-).

>>Good point about the CD-ROM driver. I wouldn't have thought of that
>>(the first time ;-). I've copied the old disk to the new, so I can go
>>back if I blow it. One thing that sorta surprised be is that I can't
>>expand the FAT32 partition beyond 8GB. I suppose it shouldn't,
>>considering the clusters were set up on a 6GB drive and Win is *dumb*.
>
> If you don't have a CD-ROM driver handy the oakcdrom.sys in the
> windows\command\ebd folder should be good.

No problem there. Id even recognized teh Lite-On drive out of the chute.
Perhaps there will be an issue when I try to teach it that it has
two CDROM drives.

>>I'm still short the Nero CD (I have one from my DVD burner though) and
>>sound cable, so I'll still have to twit NewEgg. I would have just paid
>>the $.99 and forgotten the whole thing, but I don't want to pay the
>>other $4.99 to have it shipped. :-(
>
> I never bother with sound cables any longer - just use the digital
> interface for playing. In fact I have several of those things lying
> around - e-mail me if you want one.

Maybe. $4.99 for shipping pisses me off. IT's bad enough to pay $4.99
for a $3.50 IDE cable, but $9.98 for two? ...and $14.97 for two IDE
cables and a $.99 audio cable? Yikes! I think I wanna fly FedEx planes.

>>> Me?... looks like I'll be starting my spending earlier than
>>> anticipated: my Nokia 447XS monitor started playing up on Sat.
>>> morning. The screen just suddenly went black with no other symptoms -
>>> after finding that a spell with no power would make it work again for
>>> a few mins... or a few hours, I eventually discovered that a whack on
>>> the side works too. I'm on my 3rd whack so far this evening.:) I
>>> guess it could just be 5years of dirt build-up but I hate to lose this
>>> one since it's the best monitor I've ever seen as far as geometry
>>> (absolutely perfect) and clarity goes.
>>
>>Like your Nokia, my IBM G94 (or is it a G96?) is perfect too, but has
>>been doing some horizontal shrinking/flickering. I may check out my
>>house mains voltage since it seems to be related. The power supply may
>>be getting weak.
>
> I *wonder*.... we've had a few nasty power outages here recently from
> post-hurricane damage (they'e always pretty weak by the time they get to
> NJ but still have the occasional squall). It's possible that's what
> finished my Nokia off but once I get a replacement I'll probably open it
> up for a clean-up.

Wait until Florida is all cleaned up. I hear excavation work is getting
expensive. ;-)

>>> Now I'm investigating the swamp of LCD monitors - dunno what to make
>>> of it really... so many bad stories about every brand available.
>>> Samsung looks good - looking at the 172X - but there are indications
>>> that they are just "very good at writing really good specs".:) I've
>>> tried Iiyama and Viewsonic at the office and they're "OK". The
>>> "standard" acceptable tolerance for dead pixels seems to be 10...
>>> which seems like a lot to me - I'd be pissed with that at the wrong
>>> end of ~$500. Any experiences or hints appreciated.
>>
>>The CFO wanted an LCD monitor, but the large ones are still too
>>expensive for my blood. I'm very happy with the dual-screen Viewsonic
>>P95/IBM G94 setup. I didn't have the cash to go dual LCDs and buy a
>>system too.
>
> I have limited space so a 17" is about the max I can go and even some of
> those are too tall. The Nokia was a really special short-neck -
> shortest 17" ever.

Priorities. I took over another room (my son moved out;), complete with
its own bathroom (that's broke). Space has never been a biggie for me.
OTOH, uninhabited horizontal spaces have always been. Junk accumulates to
fit the space given.

--
Keith

--
Keith
 
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On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:17:30 -0400, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>Usenet & Forums are full of misinfo based on fudged numbers in the specs of
>LCD monitors... how a 12ns response is "much better" than a 16ns response
>and how 25ns is no use for gaming.<:) The result is that, especially the
>17" sector, is full of displays using TN (twisted nematic ?) panels which
>are subject to the above artifacts. Many of them are also using 18-bit
>engines which only do 256K colors and use dithering to get to 16.2M
>colors... instead of 24-bit engines which give a true 16.7M colors.

Sorry but the above response times should obviously have been in
milliseconds.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:04:58 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:15:07 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

>> Yeah but isn't it funny how they always seem to go into the keyed mbrd
>> connector with the ribbon pointing the wrong way so you have to make extra
>> folds to get it to go where you want neatly.:)
>
>What? You're not inot cable-origami? Fold 'em enough times and they're
>real pretty! ;-)

Oh I believe it's very therapeutic.:) I had a friend who used to call
programming "electronic basket-weaving"... but I got a feeling he had
someone else do the debugging.

>> I still remember admiring
>> the beautiful cable folding used in a genuine IBM PC/AT we got years ago
>> - every fold just exactly right for routing around cards and devices.
>
>You get no more than you pay for (and often less). The round IDE cables I
>ordered from NewEgg Monday■ came today (amazing since Monday was a Fed
>holiday). They're interesting looking, but I haven't installed them yet,
>so no information on whether they even fit.

I like "clean" inside - I route/push the round cables behind the drive
cages so that only the "business ends" are visible. The ribbon cables I
used to fold so that they were flat against the motherboard plate, taped
down with some masking tape, for any distance they had to run... like up to
the CD-ROM... which is why the extra folds could be a nuisance, taking up
length.

>■ It seems they credited my account for half the shipping since they
>were shipped together. ...or that's all I can figure from their email
>invoices. Also the shortages I reported to them on Sunday (remember
>Monday was a holiday) arrived yesterday. Good show!

I've no complaints with NewEgg so far over 6 or so orders; it makes you
wonder if they can keep it up. Often those kinds of operations eventually
go sour, with staff turnover but I see no signs. From what I can tell they
have their own warehouses -- with one in NJ so I have to pay sales tax.:-(
-- so can control the whole chain pretty well. My monitor is somewhere
between Indianapolis and Newark right now... not due till Monday, since I
spent an extra day procrastinating and didn't get the order in till early
Wednesday.

FWIW I'm not sure what the link is but it seems like there is some kind of
association between NewEgg and ABS Computer Technologies (www.buyabs.com) -
ABS has the same address as NewEgg had before they moved and at least one
mfr (Eizo) seems to think they're one and the same.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
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keith wrote:

> .... The round IDE cables I
> ordered from NewEgg Monday■ came today (amazing since Monday was a Fed
> holiday). They're interesting looking, but I haven't installed them yet,
> so no information on whether they even fit.


i'll bite, exactly which/what did you get?

i personally plan to get a few more round
cables from them coz i think that this is the
"high point" for round cables (sata drives look
to me to soon become number one)

>
> ■ It seems they credited my account for half the shipping since they
> were shipped together. ...or that's all I can figure from their email
> invoices. Also the shortages I reported to them on Sunday (remember
> Monday was a holiday) arrived yesterday.
> Good show!

^^^^^^^^^^^

exactly right. :)

your (previous) put down of newegg
(over their high shipping cost for cables)
ignored the issue of what is the total cost
vs what you can do with another company

bill
 

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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:10:08 -0500, willbill wrote:

> keith wrote:
>
>> .... The round IDE cables I
>> ordered from NewEgg Monday■ came today (amazing since Monday was a Fed
>> holiday). They're interesting looking, but I haven't installed them yet,
>> so no information on whether they even fit.
>
>
> i'll bite, exactly which/what did you get?

I wasn't worried about the connectors, rather the lengths and
connector spacings (they fit). But since you asked, I picked a coup at
random (this and its 24" cousin):
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=12-181-063&depa=0

> i personally plan to get a few more round cables from them coz i think
> that this is the "high point" for round cables (sata drives look to me
> to soon become number one)

My SATA experience is less than great. It's sitting there win Win2K on
it, should I ever choose to boot Win2K. Maybe SI will get their act
together soon, though I'm not counting on it. :-(

>> ■ It seems they credited my account for half the shipping since they
>> were shipped together. ...or that's all I can figure from their email
>> invoices. Also the shortages I reported to them on Sunday (remember
>> Monday was a holiday) arrived yesterday. Good show!
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> exactly right. :)

;-)

> your (previous) put down of newegg

Put-down? Me? ...just tha facts, Ma'm.

> (over their high shipping cost for cables) ignored the issue of what is
> the total cost vs what you can do with another company

Actually, no. I did say something about "in the land of the $25 USB
cable...". Yes, I think $4.95 for shipping for *each* cable is excessive.
Were it $4.95 for the bunch (or perhaps some minimum order), I'd have
ordered a *bunch*, and most likely a number of other "staples". As it was
I ordered only what I needed.

As long as we're here, I'll point out Crucial's fantastic shipping policy.
If the *order* is $40 (may be a little more) or more, shipping is free.
My USB stick came a tad shor of the limit, so a $2.95 USB cable put it
over the threshold. Yes, Crucial is one of my fav sites. Outstanding
products, outstanding service, good prices, and one cannot beat free
second-day air. NewEgg gets no better than a 50% rating when stacked up
against Crucial. It all comes down to what one uses as a benchmark.

--
Keith
 
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keith wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:10:08 -0500, willbill wrote:
>
>
>>keith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>.... The round IDE cables I
>>>ordered from NewEgg Monday■ came today (amazing since Monday was a Fed
>>>holiday). They're interesting looking, but I haven't installed them yet,
>>>so no information on whether they even fit.
>>
>>
>>i'll bite, exactly which/what did you get?
>
>
> I wasn't worried about the connectors, rather the lengths and
> connector spacings (they fit). But since you asked, I picked a coup at
> random (this and its 24" cousin):
> http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=12-181-063&depa=0


lower end cables, but they do happen to offer
a quantity discount on the shipping. :)

next time i order i'm going higher up the chain.
the Antec Cobra's are the best i've bought so far
(and the 3 that came with a Lanparty mobo)

only small negative with the Cobra's is that
you have to add your own pull tabs (a minor
irritation) although the cobra's are robust
enough that they may not need them


>> your (previous) put down of newegg


> Put-down? Me? ...just tha facts, Ma'm.

>> (over their high shipping cost for cables) ignored the issue of what is
>> the total cost vs what you can do with another company
>
>
> Actually, no. I did say something about "in the land of the $25 USB
> cable...". Yes, I think $4.95 for shipping for *each* cable is excessive.
> Were it $4.95 for the bunch (or perhaps some minimum order), I'd have
> ordered a *bunch*, and most likely a number of other "staples". As it was
> I ordered only what I needed.
>
> As long as we're here, I'll point out Crucial's fantastic shipping policy.
> If the *order* is $40 (may be a little more) or more, shipping is free.
> My USB stick came a tad shor of the limit, so a $2.95 USB cable put it
> over the threshold. Yes, Crucial is one of my fav sites. Outstanding
> products, outstanding service, good prices, and one cannot beat free
> second-day air. NewEgg gets no better than a 50% rating when stacked up
> against Crucial. It all comes down to what one uses as a benchmark.


thanks for the ref on Crucial. :) i recently bought
some Crucial memory (ECC for the 875 Lanparty mobo)
from Newegg and it would have been useful to get some
additional experience with another company

fwiw, Newegg is in Calif. and i bet more
than half their business is with residents
of Calif. so maybe they do a small overshift
of pricing to shipping? i mean, there's no
sales tax on shipping. ;)

bill