Chimeric Sphere and gaining/losing abilities

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

,----[ Oracle ]
| Chimeric Sphere
| {3}
| Artifact
| {2}: Until end of turn, Chimeric Sphere becomes a 2/1 artifact
| creature with flying.
| {2}: Until end of turn, Chimeric Sphere becomes a 3/2 artifact
| creature without flying.
`----

My wife initially thought that the "without flying" on the second
ability was redundant, since it didn't have flying to begin with. But
then she realized that if it didn't have those words, one could play
the first ability to make it a 2/1 flyer, and then play the second
ability to make it a 3/2, and it would still have flying.

But then I got to thinking and I asked myself, "Does that 'without
flying' actually make it lose flying?" To try to answer myself, I
looked at 407.1 in the rules, which says, "An effect that removes an
ability will state that the object 'loses' that ability."

However, it also says that "An effect that adds an ability will state
that the object 'gains' or 'has' that ability." And the first ability
uses the word "with", not "gains" or "has".

So, now that I've throughly confused myself, my questions are:
1) How does "with" actually give it the ability?
2) Does "without" actually remove the ability?
3) (I think that this is #2, put another way) If I play the Sphere's
first ability, let it resolve, and then play & resolve its second
ability, what does it become?
4) Which of the following are incorrect: (I suspect it's c)
a) The card's Oracle wording
b) Rule 407.1
c) My understanding

--
Peter C.
"Data! That was *not* funny!"
-- Geordi, Star Trek: Generations

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org> wrote:
>| Chimeric Sphere 3 Artifact
>| 2: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 2/1 artifact creature with flying. /
>| 2: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 3/2 artifact creature without flying.
>
>My wife initially thought that the "without flying" on the second
>ability was redundant, since it didn't have flying to begin with. But
>then she realized that if it didn't have those words, one could play
>the first ability to make it a 2/1 flyer, and then play the second
>ability to make it a 3/2, and it would still have flying.

Bingo.

>But then I got to thinking and I asked myself, "Does that 'without
>flying' actually make it lose flying?" To try to answer myself, I
>looked at 407.1 in the rules, which says, "An effect that removes an
>ability will state that the object 'loses' that ability."
>
>However, it also says that "An effect that adds an ability will state
>that the object 'gains' or 'has' that ability." And the first ability
>uses the word "with", not "gains" or "has".

Right. What both of them are doing is animating the artifact, and giving it
other qualities than just "creature" and "p/t" in the process.

>So, now that I've throughly confused myself, my questions are:
>1) How does "with" actually give it the ability?

Much like "comes into play with flying" would. (Afterlife, Anavolver, Angelic
Favor, Battle Screech, etc.) Blinkmoth Nexus is another example: it animates
the land, _and_ gives it a creature type, an ability, another permanent
type, and specifies that it's still a land. It's all part of the animating
ability.

Note that the rulebook treats type-changing abilities differently anyway:
normally "this gains flying" is applied in layer 5. But if it's part of an
effect that changes type/subtype/supertype, it gets applied in layer 4...

>2) Does "without" actually remove the ability?

Yes, pretty much the same reason.

>3) (I think that this is #2, put another way) If I play the Sphere's
> first ability, let it resolve, and then play & resolve its second
> ability, what does it become?

It becomes a 3/2 artifact creature, that has no particular abilities _other
than_ the two the Sphere already had, no creature type, no artifact type, no
particular color, etc. The "this is a 3/2 (artifact) creature without flying"
is timestamped after the "this is a 2/1 (artifact) creature with flying", so
overwrites it ... and since the 'with flying' and 'without flying' directly
contradict each other, and neither depends on the other, the timestamp order
is used, and the 'without flying' is applied second, leaving it flightless.

>4) Which of the following are incorrect: (I suspect it's c)
> a) The card's Oracle wording
> b) Rule 407.1
> c) My understanding

A combination of 2 and 3. 407.1 is, if you're strict about it, only for
effects that -just- add or remove abilities, not for ones that do other
stuff too. It happens that animating (and other type-changing) abilities
that grant or remove other characteristics than just the type (and p/t for
animations) have a different templating...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

The Oracle text and Rule 407.1 are both correct. The first ability of
Chimeric Sphere does not give it flying, it just says that it is a flying
creature. Also the second ability does not take flying away from the
Sphere. If you use the second ability after using the first ability, it
will no longer be a creature with flying.

You can use both ability to block a flyer and deal 3 damage to the creature
you blocked though. You activate the first ability, making it a 2/1 flying
artifact creature, and declare it as a blocker. Then after being declared
as a blocker, you can activate the second ability, making it a 3/2
non-flying artifact creature. Since it was a flyer when blockers were
declared, it is still a legal blocker. And once damage goes on the stack,
it will deal 3 points of damage to the creature it blocked.

The same is also true for the reverse. If an attacking creature without
flying is blocked by another creature without flying, the block is still
legal even if the attacking creature gains flying after the blockers are
declared.

A creature has to be a legal blocker at the time that blockers are declared.
This is the only time the rules are checked to make sure the block is legal.

You can also use the Chimeric Sphere on the attack in the same way. If you
opponent does not have any fliers, attack with a 2/1 flying artifact
creature. Then after blockers are declared, activate the second ability and
change it into a 3/2 non-flying artifact creature. Your opponent will take
3 damage instead.

~Ryan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:05:56 GMT, Griffyn 16 <rlcarper31@mchsi.com> wrote:
>The Oracle text and Rule 407.1 are both correct. The first ability of
>Chimeric Sphere does not give it flying, it just says that it is a flying
>creature.

It gives it the ability "flying". You can't be a "flying creature" without
having the flying ability - it's not some random quality based on artwork,
or anything.

> Also the second ability does not take flying away from the
>Sphere.

It does; it makes it into a creature without the ability "flying". If it had
flying before, this -does- cause it to lose the ability.

> If you use the second ability after using the first ability, it
>will no longer be a creature with flying.

Right. And since flying is an ability, that means it lost the ability.

>A creature has to be a legal blocker at the time that blockers are declared.
>This is the only time the rules are checked to make sure the block is legal.

Right.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[peter]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> >| 2: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 2/1 artifact creature with flying. /
> >| 2: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 3/2 artifact creature without flying.

> A combination of 2 and 3. 407.1 is, if you're strict about it, only for
> effects that -just- add or remove abilities, not for ones that do other
> stuff too. It happens that animating (and other type-changing) abilities
> that grant or remove other characteristics than just the type (and p/t for
> animations) have a different templating...

I suppose they could have written it:
2: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 2/1 artifact creature and gains flying.
2: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 3/2 artifact creature and loses flying.

Peter