News China poised to break 5nm barrier — Huawei lists 5nm processor presumably built with SMIC tech, defying U.S. sanctions

[Admin]

Chinese foundry SMIC may have broken the 5nm process barrier, as evidenced by a new Huawei laptop listed with an advanced chip with 5nm manufacturing tech — a feat previously thought impossible due to U.S sanctions.

China poised to break 5nm barrier — Huawei lists 5nm processor presumably built with SMIC tech, defying U.S. sanctions : Read more

 

[usertests]

Very interesting indeed. Not really a surprise since it was known they wanted to use DUV to make a 5nm class node.

U.S. Cannot Halt China's Semiconductor Advance to 5nm: Ex TSMC VP

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

I think this probably the farthest Chinese chipmakers are going to be easily go with DUV and existing stockpiles of chipmaking technology. Its not surprising they managed to make this with technology and equipment that they either had beforehand or arent being sanctioned as being bleeding edge. The true test for domestic Chinese chipmakers are the process nodes and improvements going forwards. Whether they keep up their development pace for 3 nm class products and other improvements will be the true indicator of the fruits for Chinese semiconductors. Progress from here will signal whether US sanctions have had their desired impact.

 

[thisisaname]

Not how affective the US sanctions are if they are still allowed to import chip manufacturing machines.

 

[Co BIY]

Not how affective the US sanctions are if they are still allowed to import chip manufacturing machines.

The effectiveness of these sanctions are obviously limited in effectiveness because they are designed to be limited in economic damage.

This is more like a ritual combat with the semiconductor sectors as the champions of their side. Looks at least analogous to the Space Race in the Cold War.

In both cases the competence demonstrated by the sides is a proxy for economic and military strength.

 

[Co BIY]

I think this probably the farthest Chinese chipmakers are going to be easily go with DUV and existing stockpiles of chipmaking technology. Its not surprising they managed to make this with technology and equipment that they either had beforehand or arent being sanctioned as being bleeding edge. The true test for domestic Chinese chipmakers are the process nodes and improvements going forwards. Whether they keep up their development pace for 3 nm class products and other improvements will be the true indicator of the fruits for Chinese semiconductors. Progress from here will signal whether US sanctions have had their desired impact.

Another possibility is that Chinese companies will be able to produce adequate chips (in quality and quantity) to allow China to progress at a moderate pace or just maintain it's current economic status quo. I'm not sure they need to be internationally competitive in the free market for semiconductors to meet CCP goals.

 

[wicked-warlock]

It is not rocket science. China stole the tech or someone is working with them against the US sanctions. How many companies are capable of making 5nm labs ? I know this answer; you can narrow it down by just that info alone.

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

Another possibility is that Chinese companies will be able to produce adequate chips (in quality and quantity) to allow China to progress at a moderate pace or just maintain it's current economic status quo. I'm not sure they need to be internationally competitive in the free market for semiconductors to meet CCP goals.

Thats certainly possible. I imagine there is a grey area where Chinese semiconductors are at a performance level where they meet CCP goals, but are a little short of being truly competitive on the international stage.

 

[Co BIY]

It is not rocket science. China stole the tech or someone is working with them against the US sanctions. How many companies are capable of making 5nm labs ? I know this answer; you can narrow it down by just that info alone.

It is probably harder than Rocket Science - (Although, the Chinese also invented Rocket Science)

Or the world's largest manufacturer, with the second largest economy and the second largest population in the world was able to assign a high priority to a development goal and assign it large levels of resources in money, people and attention. They are probably also more than willing to color outside the lines.

That they've had some success is not surprising.

I'm sure that those in charge of the sanctions regime are not surprised.

 

[edzieba]

I think this probably the farthest Chinese chipmakers are going to be easily go with DUV and existing stockpiles of chipmaking technology. Its not surprising they managed to make this with technology and equipment that they either had beforehand or arent being sanctioned as being bleeding edge. The true test for domestic Chinese chipmakers are the process nodes and improvements going forwards. Whether they keep up their development pace for 3 nm class products and other improvements will be the true indicator of the fruits for Chinese semiconductors. Progress from here will signal whether US sanctions have had their desired impact.

Lack of EUV (assuming China does not develop a domestic capability) will put a price floor on fabbing due to the need for multipatterning, but that's about it. EUV and high-NA EUV are drivers for decreased production cost from reducing the number of patterning steps (which also increases yield, by removing opportunities for defects) but actual feature scale is not a significant factor - feature size has been well below illumination wavelength for several decades, and even with EUV feature size remains below illumination wavelength.

 

[nookoool]

I'm in the camp that they are TSMC leftovers that they are trying to get rid of. Doesn't make sense that they are expending production for these (low yield) as they are backlog by 1-3 months on the Kirin 9000s already.

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

Lack of EUV (assuming China does not develop a domestic capability) will put a price floor on fabbing due to the need for multipatterning, but that's about it. EUV and high-NA EUV are drivers for decreased production cost from reducing the number of patterning steps (which also increases yield, by removing opportunities for defects) but actual feature scale is not a significant factor - feature size has been well below illumination wavelength for several decades, and even with EUV feature size remains below illumination wavelength.

Thats true, and a lot going foward is doing to have to do with speculation on how far along Chinese semiconductor companies are in their own EUV development as well as how far along DUV with decreased yields and increased costs can be maintained. But I can't imagine being able to create competitive (price or performance wise) sub 5nm products with DUV even with gigantic subsidies provided by the CCP. The next 2-3 generations of improvements are probably gonna be key in understanding the real implication of US sanctions.

 

[DavidC1]

I'm in the camp that they are TSMC leftovers that they are trying to get rid of. Doesn't make sense that they are expending production for these (low yield) as they are backlog by 1-3 months on the Kirin 9000s already.

SMIC's 7nm is a legitimate 7 class process, competitive with TSMC N7.

Innovation comes from brilliant minds and hard work. If given enough time they won't need support from ASML. Personally I don't think there's enough time before it gets worse(such as full scale war).

 

[JTWrenn]

All these sanctions are doing is speeding up the process of China making it's own tech.

 

[thisisaname]

On the one hand, it is prestigious to produce 5nm-class chips despite the U.S. crackdown; on the other hand, neither Huawei nor SMIC want their partners and tool suppliers (or how they obtain equipment or actual chips) to be discovered by the U.S. and its allies.

I'm also wondering where they imported the machine they produced them on.

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

I'm also wondering where they imported the machine they produced them on.

I'm like 80% sure most of the machines they produce them on are either from before sanctions were put in place or are from sources that aren't impacted significantly by current sanctions. In other words, still from ASML and your big league international semiconductor equipment manufactorers.

 

[watzupken]

All these sanctions are doing is speeding up the process of China making it's own tech.

There are 2 effects as a result of the sanction. You rightfully called out the first. The other impacts the progress of existing fabs because there is less investment. The lost of Chinese customer will have have a significant impact on profit. Now that US have sanctioned AI chips to China, I believe you will see demand tanking. The surge in demand is due to China companies stock piling AI chips knowing that the axe will drop.

 

[George³]

Probably SMEE is delivered first domestic 28nm lithography machines?

 

[unitedbamboo]

It is not rocket science. China stole the tech or someone is working with them against the US sanctions. How many companies are capable of making 5nm labs ? I know this answer; you can narrow it down by just that info alone.

Stole the tech from whom exactly? The US doesn't even have the capability to produce 7mn 😂.

Intel is so lame that they had to rebrand their chips to compete.

IE: intel 10nm was rebranded to intel 7 🤣🤣🤣

 

[thisisaname]

I'm like 80% sure most of the machines they produce them on are either from before sanctions were put in place or are from sources that aren't impacted significantly by current sanctions. In other words, still from ASML and your big league international semiconductor equipment manufactorers.

South Korean chipmaking tool firms increase their sales into China, capitalizing on U.S. sanctions against the PRC

Stepping in to fill the need.

www.tomshardware.com

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

South Korean chipmaking tool firms increase their sales into China, capitalizing on U.S. sanctions against the PRC

Stepping in to fill the need.

www.tomshardware.com

Pretty informative article, and good for the SK company I guess. I think my point still stands as of now, since I imagine the SK companies are only expanding their operations due to the recent pulling out of other chipmaking related companies.